Since no one wanted to answer my question about copper flashing in roof valleys, maybe someone can help me with a gutter problem. My yankee gutters are rotted out. I am going to have them replaced with copper. Most roofers are telling me that they will just cover over the old gutters with the new plywood roof deck instead of removing the gutters altogether since they may be intricately tied into the house framing and this will open a can of worms and be very expensive.. Is this a good idea?
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Al--I'm not quite sure from your description what you meant in your post. Around here yankee gutters are set up from the edge of the roof about a foot or so, and are usually constructed by setting a 2x4 on edge over the roof sheathing and flashing over it. It's usually very easy during a reroof to rip off the metal and 2x. You just roof up normally at that point. New gutters are frequently hung with straps in this situation, since there is usually a crown moulding detail at the fascia. I hope this has been helpful, as I won't be able to respond to any new posts for the next week since I'm headed to Myrtle Beach tomorrow for 6 days of golfing [minor gloat]
yeah , yankee gutters is a particular term that may be confusing the issue..
if you have normal wooden gutters, they become an integral part of the cornice decoration.. so , if they are failing you have three choices..no make that 4 choices :
1) remove and replace with new wood gutters
2)extend the roof down and cover them, so the detail will still be there, but they will no longer function as gutters
3)remove them and replace them with aluminum gutters with the same profile..
or , 4) extend the roof and hang a half round gutter with roof hangers
here's an example of the third choice...we took this route because of the lower maintenance issue with aluminum gutters as opposed to wooden ..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dear Mike,
Thanks for the nice response and photo. My molding detail and returns are really rotten. what happens when I pull them off. Are they an integral part of the house framing? I should send you a photo. If I can figure out how to doit I will.
Alan
al.. if you have an historic period house, then the cornice is a major part of the look and feel of the house.. so you want to preserve that look.
basically , whatever is rotten must be replaced.. minor rot can be epoxied...
modern materials can be substituted to reduce maintenance, but it should look like what the original style and vernacular was.. unless it was just one of those poor imitations.. in whcich case you could attempt to improve on the original..
i'm guessing you have built-in wooden gutters... from below they don't look like gutters they look like molding... so... if you want gutters.. they should be replaced..
when you say "new copper gutters" i imagine them being hung from the roof edge with bar hangers.. this will change the look of your cornice.. which may or may not be alright Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
al
If your gutters are actually built into the roof which I'm guessing they are..why not line them with copper or as I've done in the past use rubber roofing material flashing cemented into somewhat rotted wood gutter troughs?
Pictures would help.
Be in the gutter
Namaste
andy
"Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"
Alan Watts
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Dear andy,
My gutters are built into the house and are really in terrible shape despite several efforts to fix them - the exterior molding and decorative features are rotted. here are some photos finally.
Alan
Looks like you need a new roof as well.....
Good luck
andy
"Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"
Alan Watts
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
the new roof is the impetus for the gutters. I can find plenty of people to do the roof but no one wants to tackle the gutters the way that I want them to be done - the right way.
Alan
This is the one with shakes topped by shingles twice - right?
I've studied these more and I'm quite certain that the gutter is made up of standard crown molding with other materials. I see an additional strip protruding above where the gutter would end and a joint about three feet in from the left of the gutter. With wood gutter installs you avoid joints except at corners or ends.
BTW, you started this thread with a comment about copper flashings. I must have missed that one if you want to link me to it or repost right here..
Excellence is its own reward!
Dear Piffin,
My first question was about the necessity of copper flashing in roof valleys. refer to breaktime #25678.1. I am planning to take some more pictures tomorrow- the sun will be out so that you can get an overview of the problem. Sorry about the poor quality of the first photos. It was getting dark by the time i figured out i needed a smaller file. I will do better tomorrow. Thanks for the advice - this is a great forum. it looks like I am going to need a loan for this project also.
Alan
Apparently that wasn't the right thread number or link. You didn't mention copper in it.
Copper is pretty universally accepted as one of the two best quality materials for a long lasting flashing, the other being lead. What you need is a non corroding material that will last at least as long as the shingles you apply and one that is compatible with that material.
For instance, you don't want to use steel flashings near salt water where it will rust quickly. You likewise don't want to use aluminum flashing with a copper roof.
A slate roof will last two lifetimes but aluminum flashings won't so the roofing would be wasted. You need copper for a lifetime roof.
With a twenty or thirty year asphalt roof, it is questionable whether the extra expense of copper is worthwhile. Galvanized metal or aluminum can do the job.
Now let's make application to your roof. If your gutters were not as rotten as you portray, lining them with copper might be an option, but I would use leaded copper to isolate it from the tannins in cedar if it were to be a cedar shingle roof or to provide a wear layer if it were to be an asphalt roof. Water runnoff would bring with it some of the ceramic granules over the years which would scour the surface off since copper is a soft metal.
Copper pretty much disappeared from roofing about the time of the second WW and only began to come back in the late seveties or early eighties when the commodity price stabilized at a lower level again. Tin and galvanized metal became more common then.
Many roofers have gone to using aluminum, on the presumption that since it won't rust, it will last forever. This is not true. It will corrode and become brittle, especially in polluted climates.
Leaded Copper is the best choice, if you can afford it, but no need to be talked into it for a thirty year roof.
One recommendation I always make, is that the quality of the installation and reputation of the installer is more important than the choice of the material. I've seen too many people choose the most expensive materials, presuming that would make for the best roof, and then seek out the cheapest bidder to install and find themselves replacing the whole thing three years later due to crappy workmanship..
Excellence is its own reward!
piffen .. al.. et al:
this is a shingle victorian we worked on for two years.. after 50 years of patch and paste..
rotted rafter tails, gutters, fascias & soffits... the roofing was relatively good so we chose to strip just the bottom three feet and work our way around the house.. here's the west wing..
first thing we discovered was nothing was level , because the corner had dropped 6 inches.. fixed that and then onto the cornice.. new tails, new rewood soffit, new bed molding.. 6 inch aluminum gutter, and vinyl soffits, everything backprimed and two coats of acrylic victorian green..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and on the front there is a funny bay dormer. same treatment..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nice pictures Mike. Hope mine are OK. Are you sure you can't reccomend somebody to do a real job in Yonkers? At this point I don't know who to ask or who to trust. Its going to be a big investment - $30,000+ and I don't want to hire the wrong guy.
Alan
al... i'm assuming your budget and your equity will support it.. so i'd start interviewing... ask them for details of what they will do for your new cornice... you have a nice looking house with strong architectural features....
if they stage to replace your cornice , the roofing becomes almost secondary....you either want a talented roofer, or a good trim guy ...
your neighborhood must be full of similar situations of houses from the same period ... some have been butchered... some were repaired right..
knock on the door of the ones that were repaired with TLC and find out who did the workMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wow, can see those siding shingles running off. It's always a tough judgement call where to start and stop on some of these.
Establishing a budget is a top priority because that effects all thesse judgement calls..
Excellence is its own reward!
Al,
Try PANA, they are in Danbury, CT. I can't vouch for them from personal experience but I have seen thier trucks on some sweet looking jobs.
Or try calling Castle Supply in Greenburgh, NY they could probably recommend someone.
Eric
Piffen,
you made an observation that most roofers have switched to aluminum on the mistaken assumption that since it won't rust---it will last forever.
actually----I don't think thats really the reason----at least for me.
for me---it is entirely customer driven. when we last priced copper materials for valley flashing it was 7 times the cost of aluminum. once the prospective customer was informed of that fact----- copper was off the table.
also, like it or not,---- most of us live increasingly in a vinyl sided plywood or osb box enviornment. although you and I may appreciate the look of copper-------most customers today are conditioned to prefer the "cleaner" look of aluminum. cheap and new is prefered by these people to old,durable and gracefull.
also----typically in my area----homes that originally had details like slate,copper etc. are no longer owned by people who care about these things. now they are converted into rentals, or are owned by folks who are really stretched to simply make the mortgage payment. there simply is NO money available to contemplate the sort of work this individual is planning.
now,without being too RAH-RAH-----I would like to congratulate this homeowner. It's just my opinion----but I have to respect him for buying a really good looking house, in what seems to be an older neighborhood instead of buying some piece of turd in sub-urbia.the fact that he seems to be responsible enough and possesed with the means to financially handle this project is great. I hope he shows us pictures when it's done.
BTW---short of a direct recomendation from a neighbor or friend satisfied with a comparable project--------ask the oldest,most reputable SUPPLIER of these materials. they will be able to clue you in on who can handle your project.
Thank you for the vote of confidence. if and when I find someone to do the job correctly I will post some pictures.
Alan
shazlett
Kinda dumb isnt it? That people wont spend the extra bucks on copper. I mean..........how much more we talking about?
I can understand it if the house has vinyl siding and replacement windows to use aluminum flashings but on a real wood house? UGH
Be plastic
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy----what can I say. copper would have added about $300 to the cost of the job I am thinking of---a small percentage of the total price.
Of course this is largely a regional thing I think.Copper was actually never all that common in my rust belt city. I have worked on several thousand roofs here over the years and can count on one hand the number of times copper was involved( and have several fingers to spare!)
Even most of the slate roofs we have encountered here had galvanized valley and chimney flashing. copper was largely limited to use on the factory owners and upper level managements homes.
It doesn't suprise me that people won't pay for it here now----they didn't pay for it in the past!----and of course people NOW are conditioned to prefer drywall to plaster-----trusses to properly scaled and framed houses, etc.
Shaz
When I do my wood shake roof here in the fall you KNOW I'll be bending some copper for my roof.
Too bad you dont live around here. I'd have you do it for me
a
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy, I was offered the church roof job of about 140 squares plus some auxilary rubber roofs plus copper valleys,counter flashing etc. We accepted the 140 squares plus some very minor copper work----but most of the copper work we turned down along with the rubber work. I kind of wish I had accepted the rubber work. but for my church I wanted more experienced copper craftsman to handle most of the copper work.
this is really a once in a lifetime opportunity for me----I am having a lot of fun with the idea that my family,friends and neighbors will be having their weddings,funerals,first communions and graduations under "my" roof for the rest of my lifespan. Plus,I, and everyone else in the neighborhood will be driving past my work several times each day.
I forgot to mention andy----I will be starting work very soon on the roof of a $3,000,000 church. that one gets copper!
take pictures and wear a harness locking yourself to the roof
BE safe
NAmaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Mike,
The wooden gutters are built in and they do look like moldings. Now comes the hard part. i will try to attatch a representative photo which I just took.
Thanks again for the help and the prompt reply. There are not a lot a people out there that know about wooden gutters or desire to "save" the original look of the historic details which we both obviously do. Do you ever do jobs in Yonkers?
Alan
my buddy , barry , ran a slate and gutter company in yonkers for years.. great copper man too.... oh, well.. now he's settled in Rhode Island.. you probably couldn't lure him back
here's barry doing some of that gutter replacement...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hey, barry just walked in... he wants to know which roofers you are talking to...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
c. Verrone out of Armonkis the leading candidate right now.
Alan
The attachment showsa a series of three gutter profiles for wood gutters.
The first on left shows a more modern installation I have seen with the gutter applied over the facia in a retrofit fashion.
The center one shows what is normally, in my experience, done in classical homes with the gutter installed directly to the framing. It is trimed above and below with the fascia and being open to air at the rafter tails on the back allows it to dry in that direction also. Sometimes dentil work is included with the under trim where the scsotia is drawn.
The right detail shows how these old gutters often get covewred over with the next roof.
Hope this helps..
Excellence is its own reward!
#3 seems like what they want to do to al's gutters.. at which point they would then hang a copper half-round on bar hangers..but this will change the cornice appearance...
now.. if...
if the gutters are superfluous ?????? then #3 would be a good choice, but if he still needs gutters ... hmmmmmmMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
here is a picture of my gutters - finally. My file was too large so i photographed it again at a lower resolution.
Alan
Thank you. You really have been helpful. Now all i need to do is find the right person to do the job in this area.
Alan
another picture
At risk of overloadaing Prospero's photo files, I am reposting the photos reworked for clarity and light.
;)
As I see it, these may be 'Yankee gutters formed with molding profiles and other millwork instead of actual milled wood gutters. They may be part of the integral structure of the house and expensive to repair but I think I would recommend digging into it because the condition of your siding tells me that you have other moisture problems. I would be able to see more if these photos were from a more elevated vantage point. You do need a total home improvement or restoration person. This home needs a good friend..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
HE needs maybe not JUST a roof and new gutter system by the pictures he's posted but possibly new roof sheathing. Looks like he has several layers of roofing on there for some reason....as in....the people before him tried covering up problems.
The siding seems to be in need of stripping but my guess isnt as bad as the roof and gutter area.
He better rip that entire roof before he deceides the route he's going to go with those gutters.
I think we should discuse "budget" here!
BE a stripper
NAmaste
andy
"Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"
Alan Watts
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy, he haas two or three threads going about this roof so I'm not sure which one it is in but he says that the reason for the subject coming up is that he has shakes and then two layers of asphalt.
I was going to correct him and say that it must be cedar shingles and not shakes because no-one ever puts asphat shingles over shakes. That was until I saw how lumpy the roof is! Looks like someone screwed this place up good.
The time for new sheathing was two roofs ago.
Anyway the roofers he has found so far are suggesting just covering the 'gutter' over with sheathing since it has to be sheathed anyways and that has been the seed for this whole thread..
Excellence is its own reward!
this is a budget problem.. if i was involved it would be a basic restoration... new siding, new flashings, new gutters, repoint the chinmneys.... and you saw the hodge-podge of leaders , right ?
i would do some basic drawings with lots of "as-is " photos showing the trouble areas and the proposed fix.. my guess, it's a nose bleeder and it's too high for easy maintenance.. so i would incorporate a lot of lowere maintenace features.. like FC claps for the wood we removed to install the new flashings
al... if your equity can support it, and the value of the real estate is there, and you can afford it.. you are probably in line for some major restoration...
if the real estate values won't support it , or your neighborhood is going south, or you can't afford the repairs..... then you probably want to simplify..
how about some long range photos so we can see what you've got and what you want to preserve.. all the closeups do is show the problems.. i'd like to see what someone sees from the curb as they drive upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dear Mike,
Now we are really getting into it! I never thought I would participate in this kind of internet chat but I am learning more here than I could have ever learned elsewhere. Thanks alot guys. The sun is supposed to come out tomorrow so I will take some more pictures. Thanks.
Alan
ps: I meant to send this to Mike
Edited 4/5/2003 8:46:27 PM ET by al
See you tomorrow PM then..
Excellence is its own reward!
Dear Mike,
More pictures will follow tomorrow. I will try to give you the overview and hopefully won't fall off the ladder. It is four stories in the rear because of the grade. thanks again for all the good advice.
Alan
al
Start with the roof.....gut it big time. Re sheath it if necessary which is my guess,,,gutters included.Reroof......then get back to us.
Be covered
Namaste
andy
"Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"
Alan Watts
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Here are some long range photos and one photo from above like piffin wanted.
Alan
dear Mike,
I finally figured out how to send you a picture. My first file was too large. here goes.
Alan