As part of an upcoming job, I have to move the front sill beam of a house more than an inch inward, then tie it to a parallel beam (with two steel rods) to keep it in position.
The front sill is hand-hewn, 22 feet long. It has shifted forward over the years, creating a bulge in the front wall and a wide gap in the floor. The parallel beam is also hand-hewn and is 16 feet from the sill.
The engineer’s report says, “Install two 5/8 steel rods thru sill beams to hold floor together. From exterior push front sill beam as practical/desired to close gap @ interior wall.”
Any thoughts on how to go about this? The front sill is under a porch with limited access.
Would the steel rods be threaded? Would they be used for the actual moving of the sill, or just installed afterwards to hold the new position? Any idea where I’d go to buy the rods, or have them fabricated?
Thanks for any and all ideas!
Allen
Replies
I'd recommend having an experienced house mover take a look at it. It could be an easy half-day fill-in job for them. For this kind of thing, you really need somebody who knows what they're looking at to look at it in person.
-- J.S.
John, that's a good suggestion. If things don't look pretty straightforward when I assess it more thoroughly, I may indeed go with a house-mover. I consulted with the best one in the area on one of my own houses years ago.
Since then, I've raised an entire wing of a house, rebuilt foundations, etc., so I'm pretty confident in my basic skills. But working for a paying client is a little different than messing with my own house.
Allen
I have some bolt on L and J plates with holes for connecting to comalongs for this sort of thing. I think he is specing a pretty small bolt diameter if he thinks that will move it. Go for an inch size.
Getting the load off the beam will help tremendously if you can do it, say by running a set of posts to the top plate,beam from hydraulic jacks. I don't know how mucch you are tearing the house up or if this is the extent of it
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Piffin, thanks for that tip. I, too, was thinking the 5/8 rods were a bit skimpy for actually moving the sill. Maybe too skimpy to hold it in place once it's moved, too.
I'll try to figure a way to take some weight off the sill.
I finally downloaded the photos I shot, and the situation is more complex than I recalled. There are perpendicular beams, so there needs to be enough space in the pockets for the sill to move. And the foundation has a patchwork of brick ... and planks that are doing who knows what. Stabilizing the whole mess?
Ahh, what fun!
A few photos attached below. House is very small. Present porch is (mostly) 1980s junk. (Ignore second "front view" ... it's a duplicate)
-Allen
You need to access the front sill ,either remove porch flooring or be able to work under it.What is the sill resting on ?Possibly a rubble foundation or flat stones?I ask because you say the beams are hand hewed, assuming the house is at least 100 years old.If the beam is on a stable foundation,then you may be able to pull it in.If the foundation is rubble, just hold the beam from moving further.
In any case ,use acme threaded rod, nuts and 1/4"x3"x3" plate washers.Regular all thread rod will strip the threads. You can buy acme threaded rods at a concrete accessories supply house.I have used acme rods up to 10'-0" long, 16'-0" you may need a connector or weld two rods to length.
If the engineer agrees,wire rope and turnbuckles are a cheaper alternative.
It just occurred to me a way to pull the beam without ripping up the floor.You need a large bolt J shaped,anchor bolt might work. Bore over lapping holes in the middle of the beam, the width of the J and slightly larger than the diameter of the bolt.Then push the bolt in, turn 90° to grab the beam. Then devise a way to pull the beam from the paralell beam.You might be able to use a plate washer and double nuts, put a shackle or hook behind the plate washer and pull with a comealong .
Be careful that you are only moving the front beam,not bowing the paralell beam.
mike
Mike, thanks for that info. I really appreciate it.
Yes, the house dates from the late 1820s or 1830; fieldstone foundation.
I need to take a closer look at situation. I need to make sure there's nothing to obstruct the planned movement of the sill beam. And, as you suggest, make sure the front sill beam is the one that moves, and not the other one.
If I need to rebuild part of the foundation, that's not a problem. And, although I think I can crawl under the porch, the plan is to rebuild the porch, anyway, so some deconstruction now wouldn't be a problem.
Thanks again.
Allen
Allen,I have another question. Do you know if the sill beam is bowed in the middle ,or out an inch in the entire length? If the beam is bowed in the center, leave well enough alone and only tie back to prevent further movement.You will not be able to straighten a beam .The bow is a permanent set, impossible to actually straighten.
I know from expierience and a 50 ton screw jack that this is the case.
If the entire sill beam has moved the inch, go for it.Like Piffin said, jack a bit of the weight off the beam.Even if you can get 1/8" clearance,it will help. The brick is a fill in that has no structural part of the foundation. If there is mortar on the top course that may impede the moving beam, clean it off. The mortar may be so soft that a sawzall with a used demolition blade will suffice.Once I actually used a drywall saw when I had no electric.
If you remove enough of the porch flooring you can push instead of pulling. Lots easier.You need to place short mudsills at an angle in the dirt.Then push with screw or hydraulic jacks.
mike
It may be a combination of bowing and the whole sill having moved forward.
On the exterior, the front wall bulges forward in the middle. On the inside, there's a large gap (an inch or more) between the first and second floor board. That gap extends across the entire width of the room, I think.
I also noticed that the clapboards are proud of the corner trim boards at both corners; I've not seen that symptom before. By the paint evidence, it appears to have been like this for a very long time.
Allen
"You need to place short mudsills at an angle in the dirt.Then push with screw or hydraulic jacks."
Mike, is this what you have in mind? I was thinking of trying something like that, but wonder if it would put enough lateral force on the sill beam. Or if the timber in the dirt would just embed deeper.
View Image
Or are you suggesting driving timbers into the ground?
Allen
there is no way you can tell from where you are whether that beam has a permamnent set. I never know until I begin to apply torque whether it is wanting to go or wanting to stay.
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I asked if the beam was bowed an inch or the beam was out an inch over the entire length. If the beam is bowed it will never straighten, even if you could remove it and use hydraulic pressure against an immovable object. The beam will take an S shape.
If this sill beam has been bowed ( if it is bowed) for many years nothing will make it straight. The best alternative is to tie it back so it does not move further and then if needed add to it to compensate for the 1" .
Been there, done that
mike
"If the beam is bowed it will never straighten,"Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
If you insist on using absolutes like "never" you are just plain wrong.
been there and done that many times
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This is the last reply about whether a beam,joist or whatever can be straightened ,if it has a permanent set. I stand by "never". For 12 straight years I have only worked on historic homes. Most of them had undersized joists , most in the range of 2"x 5" in a span of 12-0 to 15-0. The average joist had a 1-1/2" to 2" sag in the middle.
The only thing accomplished by jacking the joists to the correct height was a reverse dip at about one third span from one or both ends. I could hold the center to a straight line and keep it there with 3/4" plywood nailed and glued on each side. Then a problem with the rest of the joist looking like a shallow wave. I almost always replace the joists with engineered joists or framing lumber.
If you can straighten a joist,beam etc that has been bowed for many years, more power to you. Been at it for 46 years but still willing to learn.
mike
now you've changed the discussion to all the "sags" that you have found and failed to train straight. I'll agree on sags, but this problem is a beam that is bowed out aand we have no idea under what conditions.My experience goes back just about as far as yours on old timbers, and I have found about a third of the time that once unloaded, it takes very little to spring them back into place. It all depends on what pushed them out, for how long, under what conditions, and there is no way we have been given enough information in this thread to say "never" or "always"What is, is, but neither of us knows.
Neither will he untill he getss into it
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Yeah, I notice tht you qualify your absolute statement with the preface, "IF it has a permanent set"But the whole thing is that you cannot know if it does or not from where you sit. Odds are maybew 70% that you are right, but the word never does not belong in the disccussion.
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Threaded rods and a socket on a breaker bar or cheater bar.
bolt through the good beam and moving beam and crank down until desired position is acheived.
You may want to pin the stationary beam so that it isn't the one that moves and clean up the debris where the movable beam will slide to... maybe even cut away any fasteners with a sawzall blade.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Thanks, Pete. We'll see how it goes. Right now I'm trying to get a handle on what materials I'll need so I can give the homeowners an estimate. Because of the many unknowns, I'll probably charge time & materials, which the homeowners are OK with. But I want to be as close as possible with my estimate.
Allen
You could always just run into the front of the house with your truck... shouldn't even take a minute... 20 mph should do it...lol
What part of NY?
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Pete, if it were my house, I'd probably give that a try!
The house is about 30 minutes west of Rochester, N.Y.
Most of the house dates from the 1820s. It either started life as a very small Federal style house, or a wing of a larger house that was detached and relocated. It retains its original front door and most of the door surround. And a couple of 12-over-12 windows with beautiful early cylinder glass panes.
Photos attached below.
Allen
You might want to ask George Yononne out of Western MA, his web site is gyrestorations.com. George has been doing sill / structural repairs for the past 30 or so years and does outstanding work.
J
Renaissance Restorations LLC
Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
J- Thanks for the info. I checked out George's Website, and he's definitely a great resource. But too far away, I fear, for an on-site consultation here in the western part of New York State.
Allen
Edited 8/2/2006 8:03 am ET by WNYguy
Can we pause for a moment here? This project will very likely turn out to be more difficult and time-consuming than you can imagine...unless your luck is MUCH better than mine!
Is this house worth it and is the homeowner willing to pay any price? It might be more efficient and have many other benefits to jack up the whole house and pour a whole new foundation.
As others have said, if you try to pull the sill in, you are likely to to move the center beam first, especially if you don't get the load off the sill. Who knows what else might move?
How about just jacking up the wall/floor frame, cutting out the old sill, fixing the foundation and putting in a new, built-up PT sill?
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
http://moosehilljournal.blogspot.com/
Al, thanks for the warning. I will definitely communicate those possibilities to the homeowner.
The homeowners are committed to preserving as much of the "historic fabric" as possible. So, "repair," "support" and "stabilize" are words they favor over "new," "replace" and "remove."
They had an architect work up plans for a kitchen remodel and for a family room addition, as well as some minor alterations to give the house a more cohesive look (it's had a lot of alterations over the years.)
They were all set to have a local timberframe builder handle all the structural repairs and remodelling, and construct the new addition ... until they got an estimate that's about six times the current value of the house, and more than twice what the completed house would likely sell for.
The homeowners have no plans to sell the house, but you can understand why they balked at the cost.
I suggested they address one phase at a time, so they can periodically reassess their goals and plans for the house. They own several other historic houses in the area, but have chosen to live in this one because they love the site.
So, now I'm attempting to address the engineer's suggestions regarding structural repairs. Actually, I'm looking forward to getting in there and solving some of the issues ... but coming up with an estimate has got me somewhat baffled.
Allen
"How about just jacking up the wall/floor frame, cutting out the old sill, fixing the foundation and putting in a new, built-up PT sill?"
By the way, that's EXACTLY what I've extensively done with a couple of my own homes. I'm as much a preservationist as my clients, but my philosophy varies on a couple points.
While I strive to maintain as much original material as possible, for structural work, or other hidden areas, I'm OK with modern materials and methods.
The second point on which I differ is that I don't necessarily believe that just because an alteration is old, that it's worth saving. In this aspect, I also differ from the Department of the Interior's standards. To me, original intent is more important.
For example, in the case of an 1820 Federal-style house that's had its eaves extended and bracketed in the Italianate style, I would not hesitate to take the roof back to its original configuration. That's especially true if the rest of the house was largely original and still Federal in design and feel.
Ooops, lunch time is over ... gotta go put up some Italianate brackets (on an Italianate house, of course.)
Allen
If the homeowner wants a historic renovation, that's wonderful. Just don't price it like a regular job, or YOU may become historic. There are many unkowns on a job like this. Take your best high guess, then double it. If you get lucky and that sill slides in there like butter, you can be a hero and give them a discount. Just don't promise them anything until EVERYTHING is done.Al Mollitor, Sharon MAhttp://moosehilljournal.blogspot.com/