Ok, First I will confess:
1. I am not experienced enough to call myself a novice.
2. Since moving out of my parent’s house (20 yrs ago, I am now 37) I have been a tenant. Which has meant that when something ‘happened’ I picked up a phone and someone else dealt with it.
3. I am a girl (are you laughing yet? just go a little further and you will)
4. I just bought (still at the notary, but it looks like it is going to work) a house. Ok, not really a house yet. It used to be a summer cottage… before it was abandoned over 10 years ago. (not yet laughing? hold on)
5. The water pipe (in-coming) broke (there are several versions of when & how), and there is no ‘right to repair’ as it goes through someone else’s land (road moved at some point), and the city wants to repaired house to go meet up with the city pipes… only the house is on a private street, which means the city pipes are about 200 feet away and if I go through the yards of the other houses that are between me and the road, it means going through government property and I will need a civil servant to give me the permission.
6. The sewer pipe never existed, it was a “dry well” (which I think I figured out means they dug a hole… ?) and the city doesn’t want that used (property is also close to, but not next to, a river).
7. The roof appears to have leaked at some point (there is ceiling insulation on a floor, and part of the ceiling caved in, so I think that would mean water weigh on the ceiling.
8. (not laughing yet?) I live in Quebec Canada (way north) and this place is in the Laurentian mountains (north of Montreal so even colder) and it has no foundation.
9. My father passed away in 2000, and I only have unmarried sisters.
Well if you are still reading and have had a good laugh (it is good for your health you know), I (obviously) need help. I don’t necessarily want to do it all myself, but I need to know enough so that the contractors don’t have a field day with me.
I need to know, (ok, more than this list, but most pressing right now), (roof) other than cost, what is the down side to a metal roof? I can’t seem to find anyone with a word against it, and nothing is perfect, so I must be missing something. I would like to remove the ceiling (very small house) and have the front room go all the way to the roof (kind of like a cathedral ceiling). What do I need to worry about when removing a ceiling? Can I insulate under the new roof so I can just sand down and seal the wood and make it visually appealing, and not need to have the pink wool that was on the other side of the ceiling?
(sewers) I don’t want to have to ask the government for a right to pass through their land (I can’t imagine it would go smoothly) and I do not want to tear up a road to pass under it (would that even be an option? would the weight break the pipes?). Any ideas? If I had to ask, do my neighbours have the right to refuse that I pass my pipes through their front lawn?
(foundation) Can I build an addition on the outside of the house, or dug up underneath it, to put in a foundation, or do I need to lift up the house to put one under it?
Thanks for not clicking off, anything helps, I’m not much, but I listen real well.
Michele
Replies
My sister has a 3 room cabin lake Tahoe that she calls her "Ted Kazinski" cabin. I think her boyfreind is a GC so that helps a lot. Seriously, most of your questions are very specific.
If you want to learn construction as I did, I would suggest starting up a library of books on the subject and not the stuff they sell at the big box stores (although I see lately they are carrying some Taunton stuff). The other problem is acquisition of tools. Some aspects of construction are not tool intensive - like tiling (except for the tile saw), masonry and basic plumbing. Serious finish carpentry will set you back $1000's in tool cost.
Even if you don't end up doing much work yourself you can speak the language and the contractors will respect you. But, again these books will probably not help you much with your specific problems in the short term. For that I would ask around and find someone you trust.
Good Luck
Hello! Thank you for your input. I have purchased a router with table (3 sets of bits), a drill and a jigsaw. I have (very) basic knowledge of them now (I have been looking for my "Ted Kazinski" cabin for 3 years and so had time to buy stuff I didn't know how to use), but as I am in an apartement and so I waited until I had the cabin before building anything that might have size issues later on. I have lots of books, but most of the books are project related ('how to build a shed/cabin' type). When what you need is advice, they seem like deaf uncles who keep telling you the same anecdotes over and over again. Do you have any titles you think show things clearly without giving bad advice?Thanks again, Michele
Send pics of unmarried sisters. Bwahahahah, just kidding. (had to beat some the other breaktimers to it).
Seriously, you have recieved good advice in the above post. Taunton books are among the best out there. For a good deal on shelf-worn or older 'new' editions, check out http://www.hamiltonbooks.com You need to do your homework. Learn how a house is "put together" and how each of it's systems works (electical, plumbing, etc). Break the house down into it's individual components, and learn all you can about each system.
The questions about the sewer and water lines are locality-specific. What is acceptable or preferable here is probably far from what you can do there. Do you know the neighbors? Do they know you? Remember the whole 'catching flies with honey' thing...don't anger your new neighbors if you are going to need something from them -- like permission to cross their land with utilities.
If you do end up crossing neighbors land with water or sewer, make sure you arrange to have an easement for that utility. Might have to give the neighbor some cash, and you will have to pay a lawyer to write it up and record it, but it can save you or future owner a lot of headache and grief.
If the deal goes though, do what you can immediately to stop any further damage. If the roof leaks, find out why, and fix it, even if it's a temporary repair that will buy you some time.
Good Luck!! You'll need it :)
Well, in laughter alone you are a God send, I'll look into the publisher. Any titles you liked and think might save me? I was thinking of doing the roof first (hopefully before the snow starts) and letting the sewers wait until next year. I am hoping to sneak in a temporary toilet, either a composter or an incinerator, just to buy some time. I think one of my neighbours is living on borrowed time with his sewer/water. He still has a pipe that goes through where this one's did, and he does not have the right to repair. I am wondering if I can do this for both houses in the same excavation and split the costs. Or get the neighbours to make the private street municipal so that the city would have to bring me the pipes and I would only need to connect to that. (of course, you realize by now that I am one of those tragically optimistic people)Thanks for the smile (and good advice), in fact you have been SO nice to me, that I won't inflict my sisters on you. (take a deep breath and count your blessings!) Mich-
I haven't done roofing so hopefully someone will give you a title.
Masonry - Building with Masonry (Taunton) Excellent book but only covers block wall foundations.
House Framing (Creative Homeowner) I was told the definitive framing book for the DIY'er.
The complete Guide to Home plumbing (Black and Decker)
Finish Carpenters Manual by Tolpin. Outstanding book but geared primarily towards pros. Trim Carpentry and Built-ins (taunton) is a little more DIY'er friendly.
Carpentry and Building Construction by Spence covers everything from the foundation to the roof and some finishing details.
I probably have about 100 books on various home improvement subjects and the best are either from Taunton or Creative Homeowner almost without exception. The latter publisher is more interior remodeling and style.
Just don't buy the slim volumes that they sell at Osh. There are probably some good ones but in general they give just enough info to get you in trouble.
You can often get these on Amazon from their alternative sellers for quite a discount.
Hiya, I read the article in (was it June/July or August?) of Fine Homebuilding on Roof Goofs, (which is why I got the bright idea that maybe this place was a good place to start for advice). It was great advice on small things, I wish it had covered the types of roofing the way they did on the decking materials. (you mentioned a masonry book) Have you worked with insulated blocks? What I read about foundations says not to insulate the inside of a foundation because you want it to be warm, but unless there is an inside and outside to the blocks, aren't you doing that? *sigh, sound of head spinning* Do you cut away the styrofoam once the concrete has set so it gets the house heat? And they say to keep it wet until it is cured, you can't do that inside the blocks, right? What about putting the same type of stuff you put to keep floors hot on the walls to heat the foundation (not as high a temp, but the same kind of setup), in cold climates wouldn't that help it not freeze? (not for my cabin, but for a 'proper' house) I see a lot of broken (not just cracked) foundation in the cold areas up here, seems like a lot of work to fix that properly. Ok, well off topic. I went on Amazon and looked up the books, there are mountains of books from 'Creative Homeowner', (almost none of them have reviews or tables of contents though). I'll try to find a book local book store to see if I can get a look at the language and illustrations. I noted the ones you suggested and I'll bring the list. Good to know there are publishers who can be 'trusted' not to make matters worst. (exactly what you said about a little information in the wrong order being dangerous, that's what I am trying to avoid)Thanks for your help, Michele
i'll take a quick stab at this and chime in with more later.
I'm seriously not laughing at you, but I have to protectmywself too or we could end up having a co-dependant relationship here, LOL and I already have enough little sisters.
Taking the cieling out could be a major problem. Most houses have the cieling joists acting as part of a triangle that secures the roof and walls so the walls don't lean and the roof doesn't sag. Removing one leg oif the triangle will let the other two sides move. The ridge is likely to sag and the walls lean out.
Additionally, it is more difficult to insulate and ventilate a cathedral roof, and more so in retrofit fashion.
More info would be helpfull, such as whether you intend to turn this into a mansion, or just have the budget to fix it up to a liveable condition, or something in between. Advice that is purist is for high budget places. You have certainly come to the right place here, not too much low budget advice except when truly called for, but an active collection of mentor/brothers.
steel roofing is good if it is a simple gable design shape without a lot of dormers and valleys. Exactly how best to install depends on what you have now for framing, sheathing, conditions, and insulation.
Foundation depends likewise on existing conditions. Assuming a small cabnin, a few rocks under posts can oten be adequate.
For water and sewer, you will need to contact the local authorities, or AHJ as we call them ( Authority Having Jurisdiction)
I'm hoping you got a good price on this property especially since there seems to be questions about access rights.
Any photos, or deed language you could post would bring more accurate info too.
See you more later, and good luck
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Hiya, Would my application for little sister be moved up the pile if I mention I am a really good baker? Thanks for the triangle info, that makes a lot of sense. I am not sure what the roof would be called. It is four equal sides, like a box top pulled from the center straight up. (does that make sense? like four equal triangles, one on each side) As to the budget, my idea was that I wanted to "buy" parts of it as I go, so maybe put on a great roof the first year, put in a temp toilet (composting or like) and use bottles of water for a while (I am not living there permanently this winter for sure, we'll see next year when the snow melts). Then next summer look at insulating walls and see what I can do with the foundation. The house is so old and it is not crooked, I figured that was a good sign about the stability of the foundation. (if it hasn't shifted or slumped in all these years it isn't going anywhere soon? *hopeful smile*) Yes, I got a good deal and since it is very near municipal pipes I thought I had a better chance than not of finding an answer that wasn't "can't get there from here". Mostly I want to do things right the first time so I can keep moving forward even if it is slowly. (is that you laughing again? ok, that's most people's goal in life and building, life doesn't always go that way, I get it). I am willing to put more money on the roof up front, if it means I won't be redoing it in 5 years. So? What's it going to be? Brownies? Cupcakes? Michele
put a coat of paint on it and sell it.
I've been looking for it for almost 3 years! (and the paint is surpisingly good on it! must be lead or similarly toxic, it lasted much too well!) Thanks anyway, Mich-
This sounds like my first house. It started life as a barn and tractor shed, the realtor told me the water came from the farm house on the other side of the street. He did not say the other owner cut off the supply years before. I proceeded to learn how to install a new water line. Make sure you call the underground utility locators before you dig. I was lucky I called, they told the backhoe it was ok to dig. The operator promptly dug thru a main phone cable, that would have cost me alot if they were not called.
You mentioned you are located near a river. Verify if you are in a flood zone and plan and build accordingly. That was another expensive and life long lesson learned. Check with your local authorities on what you are allowed with your property. The cabin may be grandfathered in, if you plan on doing substantial work newer codes may apply.
Be prepared for the various critters that may have occupied the cabin after the last humans moved out.
When you are done your status will have gone way past novice. You will get quite the education.
I just read piffens post, that contains some good advice to start with.
Good luck
Edited 8/22/2005 5:15 pm ET by arrowpov
Hello! Does it end well? Did the barn turn into a beautiful home and have running water and everything? (I am desperate to know there is light at the end of the tunnel!) So if I ask and they turn out to be wrong it isn't my fault? Deal! I hope I can get it in writing... The river is far down an embankment, but I know that the sides did not get dug out by wind erosion, at some time the water was there. I had an uncle who built a beautiful home near a river that was further down than this one and as a child when I visited it with him I looked at the river with big wide eyes and said "aren't you afraid it will flood" He laughed at me (of course) and (of course) the river did flood 5 years later and he lost the entire house. Yes, but how do you prepare for the 'every 100 years flood'? Ark design seems a little out of my league... I guess no basements is a start. A ditch filled with gravel under the landscaping (kind of French drain) to pull the water away and around the house to slow it down? I have to dig the place up at some point anyway to make the foundation more solid. *sigh* that's ages away anyway, first is the roof, then the walls/sewers. I have lots of time for hare brained plans.All I can say about critters is I am going to have to "rent" someone's cat. There are no other ways with all the limits on pesticides and the intelligence of the average critter far out does human ingenuity for traps. (I have had squirrels experiences as a city dweller, and they aren't the brightest of creatures so if they outsmarted me, I don't stand a chance against the others).Thanks for the advice, and I hope to graduate to something other than urban legend... novice looks good right now, I hope I get to have more than just sore thumbs at the end of this!Michele
I did a 'power search' at http://www.hamiltonbooks.com for publisher taunton and category do it yourselfhere are just a few that may be helpful -- i cut and pasted, judging by title alone. again, these may be older, or shelfworn returns, but some are pretty cheap for your collection:DRYWALL: Professional Techniques for Walls & Ceilings.
By Myron R. Ferguson. Paperbound. Published at $19.95 Our Price $6.95 DRYWALL, REVISED EDITION: Professional Techniques for Great Results.
By Myron R. Ferguson. Paperbound. Published at $19.95 Our Price $13.95 FOUNDATIONS & CONCRETE WORK: The Best of Fine Homebuilding.
Paperbound. Published at $14.95 Our Price $9.95 FOUNDATIONS AND CONCRETE WORK.
By the eds. of Fine Homebuilding. Paperbound. Published at $17.95 Our Price $11.95 FRAMING FLOORS, WALLS, AND CEILINGS: Taunton's for Pros by Pros.
From the eds. of Fine Homebuilding. Paperbound. Published at $17.95 Our Price $11.95 FRAMING FLOORS, WALLS, CEILINGS: The Best of Fine Homebuilding.
Paperbound. Published at $14.95 Our Price $9.95 HOUSE TRANSFORMED: Getting the Home You Want...with the House You Have.
By Matthew Schoenherr et al. Hardbound. Published at $32.00 Our Price $21.95 RENOVATING OLD HOUSES.
By George Nash. Paperbound. Published at $19.95 Our Price $7.95 WORKING ALONE: Tips & Techniques for Solo Building.
By John Carroll. Hardbound. Published at $17.95 Our Price $11.95
Hiya, I tried the link but I got a no server found, I tried them through google and got the same, so either my provider or their server is on a coffee break. I cut and paste the names and I'll look again tomorrow. I love the title of "HOUSE TRANSFORMED: Getting the Home You Want...with the House You Have.
By Matthew Schoenherr et al. Hardbound. Published at $32.00 Our Price $21.95"If only I could really get the house I want from the house I have for $21.95! but I think that would take the adventure out of it!.Thanks, Mich
It did turn out to be a beautiful home. Unfortunately mother nature was not so kind, after two floods in a period of three years we cut our losses and moved to higher ground. It's a long story ! Between those series of unfortunate events, counting the second home I have been at it for twenty years.
It takes alot of energy and determination to convert a structure intended for other uses into a home. These kind of projects don't scare me, maybe they should. The experience, problem solving and being able to create something from a thought in your head is part of my lifestyle.
"I had an uncle who built a beautiful home near a river that was further down than this one and as a child when I visited it with him I looked at the river with big wide eyes and said "aren't you afraid it will flood" He laughed at me (of course) and (of course) the river did flood 5 years later and he lost the entire house. Yes, but how do you prepare for the 'every 100 years flood'?" You can try to prepare for a flood the best you can, but when the water exceeds the highest points of my "preventative landscaping" there is nothing left to do. We were on a slab the water was over the kitchen counters. Our new home is across the street and is 125 feet higher, so I learned another lesson about when to start over.
There is light at the end of the tunnel it just takes patience.
Wow, it must be a heart break to loose something you put so much of yourself in. There are lots of silly platitudes about it making you love deeper the next time, making you appreciate things more, and sometimes that's true. But at the moment your heart breaks your not looking forward to loving deeper, that's more than deep enough! I am sorry for your loss, and glad that you built again, and that you got the chance to use all that knowledge and experience to do it better again the next time. I saw a barn for sale a few months ago and it looked very nice as a project to convert into a house, but it was too far for me to be able to commute back and forth to work on it, so I passed. It looked like it would have been an amazing job to do though, I envy you the experience (though I am also in awe of the patience and resourcefulness it took to do!)Thanks for your encouragement, I'll try to use your words to save myself from having the same loss. (as best I can, I know nature has her own plans and I don't have a word to say in her plans)Thanks again, Michele
The realestate advertisement read "how good is your imagination" I knew the place was for me. For some people their homes are part of their being, for others the home is four walls and a place to live or a stepping stone to the next bigger house. We had no plans to move or build a new home. It was hard to walk away from a major part of my life's work. I drive by the vacant lot every day, I usually look straight ahead.
There were a couple of things I always said I would change if I ever built another house again. I was given the opportunity to incorporate the changes in our new home.
The opportunity to 'do it differently next time' came at a high price though. Like loosing a close friend really. In the internet sites for real estate up here the ads read "A qui la chance!" ( 'whose luck is this!' ) and that's when the reasonable side of my brain knows the otherside is about to take over. As much as the sane part of me says "ya! right!" the other side says 'ya, must be terrible, let's just look at how bad it is for a laugh...' and I keep falling for it, and going to look! I usually waste an entire Saturday going up to see and kick myself saying "I should just go for a day in the country if that is what I want to do with my Saturdays! Why does it have to include going to find some lost house in the middle of nowhere!" but then... a little while later, it happens all over again... I hope this one works out (I should hear back from the realtor by Friday), I just need to get past the hunt and on with the work!Thanks, Mich-
Fine Homebuilding Magazine Archives has two articles on metal roofs. July 1987 and November 2000. Lots of past articles can probably be helpful. They are easy to search and print out.
Hiya!I found a place on this site to order old issues, but not to see them. (it only had the names of the articles, no info on what they contained). Where do you go?thanks!Mich-
Go to Homebuilding, Remodeling & Design Home Page Top of this screen
Towards the top it says Visit the Archive, Click on that
Browse by Topic Roofing , Subcategory Metal Roofing , GO
Classic Tin Lid Open this Article
My computer makes me save before I can read. If it says you have to pay, make sure you are logged in. Should be free to anybody on forum, I think. If you got a CD with membership all articles should be on it too, although they are harder to access off CD.
Fabulous! It works great. Since I buy my mags on the news stand I don't have the free-bie, but I will probably end up getting a sub anyway (seems like a great place to start for all the things I need to learn). Otherwise I'll just get a bunch of articles when I am a little closer to decided on which materials are in the final selection. Thanks!Michele
Possible downsides of a steel roof:
Loud when it rains.
Snow can slide all at once. We lose about a kid a year up here due to that. Little fences can be installed to reduce that.
Goes with some architectural styles and not with others.
Needs good coating in a salt-air environment.
Upsides:
Relatively fire resistent.
Leaves and dirt get washed off automatically.
Looks decent if dark green.
Hello!Well, if it can exist in YOUR winter, mine should be a snap! (much respect from someone who knows what -45 can feel like and we don't deal with it anywhere near as often as you do!) I don't mind loosing small children in the snow, they will be the neighbours' anyway, and as the 'spinster' on the block I figure I am going to be the modern equivalent of the fairy tale wicked witch... (and if they are trying to eat my house, like Hansel & Grettle did, you can bet I'm making them into soup too!). I have a forest around me, so maybe a fire proof roof is not a bad idea. The noise I can deal with, I had a father who snored so badly the neighbours complained. (you get used to it) As to the style... I think I will have to see a lot of them before I can figure that out. Right now I am so focused on not letting the whole thing collapse before I can fix it, that I can't imagine much other than a pile of rubble. Maybe a manufacturer/dealer would have pictures to show me of finished jobs. What about weather? are they harder to insulate? Do they really last as long as the hype says?Mich-
Stack all those books under your "house" and hope they hold it up. Nothing beat experience. This place sounds like a tear down if I ever heard of one! (time and gravity are already helping!) It will be cheaper and much better to start from scratch. Build something new that just looks old.
Was the previous owner named 'Haney'?
DLE Property Services
Hello, Well, actually, the previous owner was a little old lady who came up twice a year (she died this past summer at 85). I guess it is like the old used car salesman line about only taking the car to church on Sundays... I think prayer may be what it needs. Do you know how having too much of a quality is worst than having not enough? That's me when it comes to certain things. I think this suits my nature more than starting from scratch. I am too patient, and I have too much attention (and affection) to give. This should use up all my supply and turn me into a normal (or at least more proportional) person. (I hope!) I think I am the patron of lost causes and not giving up on the things I care about, so this is good therapy, it will either cure me, or make good use of my faults. Thanks for the "last call to return to sanity", like the last gas station before you hit the long long highway, but this has been a long time in coming. I expect to have moments of regret, moments when I will wish I had listened to you, but this is what I have been looking for, I need to put my head, heart and hands into building this to feel it is mine. It wouldn't be the same to just walk into a finished home where all I have to do is sweep up after the contractor's dirty boot marks on the perfect floor. It would never feel like it were really mine. I'm 37 -almost 38- and as long as I finish it in time to set up my rocking chair and learn how to knit, it will be just fine. (I may need to be reminded of that when things look hopeless though)Thanks for the input, Michele
Aside from the Taunton Press books, my spouse and I have found the book mentioned earlier in the list put together by ProBozo, Renovating Old Houses by George Nash, to be useful. I have frequently consulted Renovation, A Complete Guide 2nd Edition by Michael W. Litchfield, Sterling Publishing. A book like The William Spence's book Carpentry and Building Construction would be good for you to have in your construction library. Until recently, the houses we have owned were from the 1920's or older.
Since you can't learn it all from a book, there's the practical, what works way that you are trying to get to know by asking these fine gentlemen on this listserve who are in the profession. We are lucky there are publications like Finehomebuilding and woodworking. It's hard to keep ahead of the new products and tools. We will often hire a Contractor or Lead Carpenter through word-of-mouth to come out to consult for a few hours, answer questions and frame the issues as he/she sees them. This also helps to focus our priorities and keep us (me) grounded. We take notes and draw diagrams. A tape recorder would be good to have along as it's hard to get it all down. We have him in again when we hit a brick wall or can't seem to agree on how to proceed. Remodeling the houses we live in is our avocation but when I'm not working on the house, I work with tools daily as a Finecraftsman/Designer/Metalsmith. Before we started our first big remodel, I took Architectural Drafting at a good community college and learned a lot about construction.
What's that quote about an educated consumer? Whether you do it yourself or hire it done, you're on the right track. It's important when you have a big project to keep the momentum going by continuing to ask questions and do research yourself. Take it step by step. Prepare the way. Don't be afraid to make mistakes but be safe. Continue to get input from a lot of different sources. In the end, it will be you who must decide. Good luck with your project. You will do well, Trish"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." Andre Gide, French Novelist
Wow, what a wonderful note. Thank you so much for taking so much time and care in writing to me, I am touched. You write very eloquently, if you have the pictures from your renovations you might want to work out a small book project. It doesn't have to get published, you can make it for you and the people around you. (children and grandchildren, even if they aren't your own, might make use it to find the place within themselves to keep going when it isn't obvious there is another shoreline ahead)I admire the effort you must have put into these projects and it is people like you (YOUR FAULT! *soft smile*) that have made me dream of this kind of (foolishness! *big smile*) and want to have one of my own. (an interminable project that makes you wince and try harder than you ever thought you could to bring something back and make it yours). I have been looking at the projects of other people in books and magazines forever and this fuels dreams. So, again, this is all your fault! and I thank you for helping me dream and leading me down this (almost impossible) journey by having taken it before me. Good luck with your project!Michelep.s. I plan to use a house inspector I once hired on a house I ended up not buying, to come in and give me second opinions rather than just take the people quoting on work as objective, but I like your idea of using people as 'consultants' who do the work themselves when you plan to do the labour. That might be the kind of person who can give you the craftsman's experience and the practical knowledge a person who only gives opinions cannot.
I can't think of a better, basic, practical, well done, old house book than Nash's
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I can't think of a better, basic, practical, well done, old house book than Nash's
I agree, it is a great resource! Between Remodeling Old Houses and Litchfield's Renovation, we've been able to do a lot of remodeling self-education. Having resources like that have keep us moving on a project on weekends when we needed to make tracks but got stuck. Of course, that was before the internet got so full of helpful people. We do love books, though, and can't seem to part with any. That's a major reason why we are creating, as part of our kitchen remodel in our late 50's house, a "hall library" that replaces the livingroom wall. A 22 ft support beam will extend from the kitchen down to the linen closet. I got the idea from a picture in Taunton's The House To Ourselves, Reinventing Home Once The Kids Are Grown. On page 30. It brings natural light into the hall above the book shelf, takes 10 inches away from the width of the livingroom and actually improves the shape of the room. The books face into the hall, not the livingroom. There will be room for display of objects above. . I just think it's a great design for a hallway!"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." Andre Gide, French Novelist
I was just daydreaming about building a Lighthouse style tower for a library! We probably have six thousand volumns.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whoa! That's a lot of books. I've been thinking of building a tower too after we are done with the kitchen; a meditation tower. I've been in some that were nicely done. Well integrated into the homes design. You know how much fun it is to be up on your roof? You get nice view of the birds too."One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time." Andre Gide, French Novelist
I'm sure you will get tons of advice and I haven't read through all the posts, so I may well be repeating what others have said.1. You need to seal the roof fast, even if it is a temporary fix.
2. Since you are in a very specific area with regard to climate and probably 'officaldom' you should talk to ALL of your neighbors to see what they can tell you about water and sewer. Water coming in is almost always solveable - it is under pressure. Sewer, well that is where you need to be asking your neighbors. Septic field or connect to a municipal system are the basic choices.
3. Think about what you want the foundation to do. If you want some full blown basement, I suggest seeing if you have a spot to do the foundation, and then move the cabin over it. This could impact the water and sewer choices.
4. Get a cat, or two.
5. GOOD LUCK!
Thank you, yes, those are great ideas and I love that you put them in a sequence, it feels good to know the order of things. I am eager to learn more about the different systems before I contract the work (that's why I am here, surrounded by all these helpful experts!). I wanted to know more about roofs before falling into one method of fixing it, and my hope is to fix the roof before winter (yes, this winter), and I hope not to do anything that stops me from fixing it permanently if I do have to settle for a temporary fix this fall. (I would hate to start this by doing something that then needs to be undone to be done right... sometimes it happens anyway, but if you can help it, it is worth the research up front)Once I choose a roof, I have to go to the municipality to talk to them about it, and at that point I will see what they want the sewers/water to look like. This is an old cottage, but the world around it has grown while it has been sleeping, and now there are much more rules it will have to obey. The municipality has grown very quickly around it (relatively speaking) and the newer homes are not like my little headache. If it is a choice, I don't want a basement, everything from the cold and river nearby and the gloominess I feel walking into a basement makes me want to go right past that option. I just don't want the house to dance to it's own tune, and I want to be able to make it warm in winter. I will definitely need at least one cat to hunt the critters out of the house! I won't need much cat food for the first long while!Thanks again for your input,
Michele
Don't try for a cathedral ceiling. Those ceiling rafters are in there for several reasons, only one of which is to hold up the ceiling. Think about paint and lighting to create a greater sense of space.
Yes, power tools are great. BUT, someone built that house 95 years ago WITHOUT a cordless drill, a plug-in drill, a power saw, a pneumatic nailer or electric paint sprayer. Sounds like you have more time than money. A few good handtools could be a better choice for you at this point. Bake those brownies, give them to the neighbors, be friendly and borrow their power tools at times. Some communities have tool lending libraries. Every place has tool rental yards. No one ever cut their hand off with a hand saw.
Water, coming and going, sounds like your biggest problem. Yes, if you neighbor needs a trench for his waste water, you could likely share the cost and negiotations and put your pipes in the same trench.
Is your lot large enough, allowed, and permittable for an on-site septic system? That could be a $3,000 (or $10,000) solution. You'd have to ask at the city or the regional health department.
Sounds like drilling your own well into bedrock would be prohibitive. Horizontal boring can be done to bring in utilities like city water, but starts at $5,000 or so.Shrot distances under driveways (15-20 feet can be done on your own with water jetting or pneumatic "pigs" that pound themselves through the soil.
Good luck,
Good advice, but don't you be scaring my little sister with those big numbers yet;)
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Ummmm?Yet? (you mean it's coming don't you? as unavoidable as everything else in life...)*sigh*Michele (aka 'sis')
Hi, What if I left the rafters and only took off the ceiling part? Too much moisture from the house or would the heat be bad for the roof?Very smart of you to know I was on bedrock. There are some beautiful tall pine trees, but not much else seems to grow there. The site is not big enough for a drainage field, and the city made it clear to someone else that they would not want one. (I would have to remove an old forest anyway, so it would go from being a little bit of fairy tale to looking like a suburb 'anywhere'.) You can make a hole under a driveway without digging it up? Wow. But that is only for short distances, right? Do you ever put the pipes under the ditch, or do they have to go through the front lawns? Can the city tell you not to use a composting toilet? Since there is no sewer or tank, do they really care? Is this the kind of thing you need a permit for?Mich-
Michele,
What if I left the rafters and only took off the ceiling part?
That can be done. It would create a sense of space without changing the structure. HOWEVER, you currently have a simpler rectangle, already in place to keep the heat nad moisture in your house (where it belongs) and out of the attic (where it can freeze and cause rot). In northern houses, you need to think of a thermal and air infiltration envelope. Define a perimeter and then pretty tightly insulate it and very tightly seal it from air loss. That can be done. Older houses rely on the plaster or drywall and a coat of paint. Better is a "vapor barrier" of 6-mil polyethylene sheeting, some expensive red tape and a nasty chaulk referred to "black death". All of which are easier to apply to a large flat surface than a ceiling interupted every 16 inches with another ceiling joist.
Too much moisture from the house or would the heat be bad for the roof? Heat shouldn't get to the roof, you'd add insulation for that. Moisture is very bad if it gets inside the walls/roof. Especially in freezing climates where it collects as ice all winter and then rains down on you in the spring.
Very smart of you to know I was on bedrock. There are some beautiful tall pine trees, but not much else seems to grow there. The site is not big enough for a drainage field, and the city made it clear to someone else that they would not want one.
Mound septic systems can be done sometimes. Expensive and space consuming. Needs an engineer.
You can make a hole under a driveway without digging it up? Wow. But that is only for short distances, right?
20 feet is pretty easy.
I've contracted out for 1000-foot runs. That can easily cost morethan your house/cabin/shack did.
Do you ever put the pipes under the ditch, or do they have to go through the front lawns?
That a legal question, not a technical one. All depends on easements, access, and money.
Can the city tell you not to use a composting toilet?
Yes. More relevent may be, would they notice? And will the neighbors rat you out? And could you ever sell it to someone else?
Is this the kind of thing you need a permit for?
Poop is pretty heavily regulated by city building departments. Seeing as how it stinks, flows downhill, and can spread diseases.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Good morning, Ok, I see... I need to start with the city, see what conditions I have to construction/repair. Then an independent house inspector to tell me what a 'not-so-independent' potential contractor will not. (no offense, we all have bills to pay, but sometimes fueling people's unrealistic dreams is not the best thing for them). From him I need to know about the systems already in place and where I am out of code. Then I need to have a roofing expert look at the roof and tell me if it is so rotten I need to take out the structure or if the surface is the issue. (sigh) and all that means I have to be patient... very patient and not get myself carried away. The main reason I wanted to take up the ceiling (beyond the fact that when I looked through the open attic trap and saw this very beautiful post, going straight for the middle, that looked very old and went skyward, like a huge tent post, I felt like a little kid at the circus) was that I have lots of house plants and I wanted a sense of space and light. Maybe I can insulate the front screen porch, (faces south), and put them there, with no pain to my roof? And what is this chaulk ? why would I want something called "black death", (shudder) in the house?Is moisture a problem in all houses? Does small make it better or worst?The walls are made of thin wooden slats (there is a spot where the inside wall has been removed and you can see outside). The ones on the outside are horizontal and then the ones inside are vertical, (I think they are the same slats), with nothing in between. Can I insulate by taking the inside walls down , adding insulation and then putting them back up (with vapour barriers & layers etc that I will ask more about when we get there)? or do I have to work from the outside? Seems this house only really has the outside wood slats to offer, everything else seems to be a do over... (re the pictures) you can't really see it, but the roof seems to have sections to it, like a hat on top of a hat, and the space where they do not meet, has lots of mesh (like large mosquito netting) put to cover it. I assume they had a problem with critters (I saw the tell tale mark of a former wasp's nest, the little circle on the underside of a roof where they start their construction. But it was old and dried out). The left side is an addition that contains a HUGE old wood stove (like my grandmother had, which I recall she cooked on and used to heat the house) I think the addition was built with no insulation at all, it contains what would have been a bathroom (tub on feet, toilet, and a sink but not connected to anything) and a small room that leads to the back door. (small balcony out back). There is an old metal contraption in the middle room that might have been oil heat. It has duct work that goes through a corridor of the addition (may have been outside before the addition, and they left it there when they added on making it inside instead of outside. I would have that and the stove checked (and cleaned) before I touch them.
That spot where the porch roof butts up against the side of the shed addition is probably all rotten, or if not now it will be in a few years.How big is the shed addition? Could it be torn off without major loss of space? Usually such additions are in poorer shape than the rest of the house and are not too well connected/constructed.
Wow, ok, you get major points for seeing all that from my little Polaroid collage!Yes, you are absolutely right, the 'shed' is an addition, they seem to have built it as a summer kitchen (on a summer cottage!) I think they got a great old stove and couldn't get it into the house, so they built an addition with the stove in it. (I know it sounds silly, but the stove is huge and there is no way to have gotten it through any of the doors.) It is also where they put the bathroom which might have shared septic facilities with a house that used to be next door but burnt down (a few?) years ago. It seems not to have the same attention as the original house. Do you think the front porch was original or also an addition? Maybe it used to be just a porch and they put a roof & walls up after. There would be no great loss of useful space, it is awkwardly shaped (long and thin and very hard to navigate) the roof has leaked in the hallway along the line of where the addition is (on the inside), now that I read your email, I think I understand more what happened there. (maybe) The old roof and new roof are not sealed to each other and the new roof separated enough to cause a leak. Maybe you're right and it would be simpler to let the addition go and fix the original house. I'll take that option up with whomever I have inspect the roof before fixing it. It may be better to cut it loose up front and focus on fixing the main roof & house.... hmmmmmm, Thanks, (now do you read palms too, or just roof lines? *grateful smile*)Michele
In general it's a good idea to tear off all additions (except for exceptionally large ones) all around the house when you start up a project like this. They're almost always poorly done, and where the roofs were merged, that is usually a bad spot. Some of the materials (siding, trim, windows, etc) can be saved and reused for patching the main house in many cases, saving the need to match old materials.Of course, occasionally an addition will be a major part of the character of a house, but even then it's often best to tear it off and reconstruct it rather than try to save it.Without a closer look its hard to say if the addition was originally a part of the porch or separate. Certainly both have been done. And I've seen houses where 3-4 "porches" have been added, then closed in over the years.
I think you may have made an excellent point, I was mulling over how to save/fix that area, as it seemed not to be of a proportion that could be useful. The kitchen is made so small by that stove that you could not really get a new stove in or a fridge without taking out the stove. When the time comes, it may be simpler to take it off and just build a new addition on the back, where slightly different materials (if I can't quite match the width of the slats) won't show as much, and I can control the new foundation etc to be up to code from the start, rather than patching a patch job.Thanks!Michele
Michele,
Rarely would a city tell you have to make repairs. They may, however, while on site to inspect other work, insist that you bring some things up to modern codes. That varies by location. But in CA and WA, it can behoove you to treat everything as a repair. Repairing a window (by replacing it), for instance. Because in a remodel, you might be held to bring large portions up to modern safety (ground-fault circuits, handrails, stair pitch) or energy (insulate walls, double-paned windows) standards. All of those things are great, but will a limited budget, many people don't want to take them all on.
A home inspector can clinm into your attic and check the wood for soundness. (basically stabbing it with an ice pick to assess if any portion of it has rotted). He/she will also look for signs of moisture, condensation, etc.
The "black death" chaulk is not toxic (as far as I know), just nasty. It sticks to everything - you, your clothes, your cat - and doesn't come off.
Many houses have moisture problems. The more moisture generated by showers, people breathing, cooking, etc, the worse. Some old styles of houses did fine (they're still standing!) because they were leaky enough to get rid of the moisture.
Yes, you can insulate inside the wall cavities by taking off the inside sheathing (those vertical boards). Most often, people would install fiberglass batting. Not the best, but cheap and easy to do-it-yourself. You would then install a vapor barrier inside of the wall cavity and reinstall the original boards or replace them with drywall. The vapor barrier is placed inside (in a cold climate) so the moisture can't move from the inside of the house to the outside, condensing or freezing inside the wall on the way. The outside is left breathable so that any moisture in the wall as an escape route.
Insulation can be blown into an exsisting wall by drilling a 3" hole and pumping it in by a contractor with equipment to do that. Minimal work and disruption. BUT the moisture migration should be examined very carefully to assess how that will change the situation.
Be especially careful of old combustion equipment. Yes, get them checked beforehand. Also get a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector. Many cottages like this were built as summer homes and therefore weren't built to keep warm, stop air infiltration or deal with year-round sources of the moisture form inside the house. But as an old resort area becomes the new suburbs, people try to refurbish them into year-round dwellings. It can be done, but it involves redoing much of the original structure - windows, doors, insulation, heating system, vapor barriers, cold roofs (a whole other topic), etc.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hiya, Do you tell them when you are making repairs? or is it only when you do something major (how do you make the distinction? what is the line?) When does "fixing the roof because it leaks" become "replacing the roof because it is colapsing"? Is it the same if you put something up as when you pull something down? If I pull down the "shed-like" addition on the house is that a repair (as I am demolishing, not fixing)? Do they have much lee-way for delays? If I tell them I want to do it their way, but it will take 5 yrs to get there, are they likely to take that as an insult? (luck of the draw depending on whom I get? I'll say a small prayer before I walk into the office)On moisture in the walls. They are currently slats of wood with spaces between them (not really intentional, I think, just that they are uneven in size so that there are natural spaces like with logs that you haven't evened out.) These spaces should be left then? When I fix the walls I need to leave the openings and put a layer (like a tar paper?) then insulation then a vapour barrier, then put back my interior slates? I don't like the pink wool because it is very thick, and the walls will have a hard time going back on. Can I use something thinner, such as the sheets of pink or blue foam? Of the three (pink wool, blue or pink solid sheets) which is best for very cold areas? (is it better to have multiple layers of different things (like in sound proofing) or are you better with more of the same? (do you ever put in several sheets of the foam sheets or several layers of the wool?)I understand the pink wool is cheaper short term, but prefer the idea of doing it slower (the renovation) and having fewer regrets later. (I can live with the old tub & fixtures, but I could not live long in a cold damp house).Mich-
Whether you need to get a permit or not varies a bit with jurisdiction (and country!) but generally:
You are supposd to get a permit, pay a fee, and be inspected for:
Changing the structure, rooflline, or footprint.
Running new electrical, plumbing or sewer lines.
Changing a lot of sheathing - inside (fire safety) or outside (earthquake resistance).
You typically wouldn't need to get a permit to:
Replace a window with one the same size
Remove and replace shingles, or
Redo a floor.
A bit about fire safety:
My cousin, a firefighter, said they've never lost a house when the drywall was intact. It does a remarkable effective job in containing a fire to one room and in keeping the fire out of the structure of the house. The times they lose a house, or when it involve much of the structure there is always a defect in the drywall. It could be the attic access door left open. Or a remodelling project in progress. Or a DIY light fixture installation done wrong (hole left in drywall).
Also, modern codes and inspections require fire rated sheathing over all the structure. That could be 1/2" or 5/8" drywall. Or it could be 3/4" (?) of solid wood. But big gaps in the wood aren't allowed.
One alternative would be to remove and set aside all the old interior wood strips, bump the door frames and electrical boxes out 5/8", hang tape and paint drywall and then reinstall the wood strips. Some will break and such, so plan on reinstall over a smaller area. But that could give you fire safety, reduced air infiltration, better resistance to critters, while retaining the old look and charm.
Post a photo of the interior wood paneling sometime.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hiya, Basically, use the dryway as a fire retardent and then use the wooden slats as wall paper on top of the drywall? It wouldn't damage the drywall's ability to be fire retardent to have all the little holes from the nails to hold up the wood slats? It is only affected by big holes? you said to paint the drywall before covering it, why? does the paint seal the drywall or is it just habit? (only primer, or a top coat too? If I am using it as fire safety, are their kinds of drywall that are better than others? I think I have seen bathroom drywall in stores, but I am not sure I understood, it is more damp proof? Is that something you would want everywhere? (It's a small house, it may have more moisture and the cost difference probably won't add up very much for the difference). By "require fire rated sheathing over all the structure" do you mean the outside too?By changing the 'roofline' you mean going from the 'dunce cap' (pyramidal) that I have to say something like installing windows (or skylight) in the roof, or anything with a different shape?By changing the footprint you mean also a demolition then, so if I remove the shed, I need to tell them?Thanks, Mich-
Michele,
Basically, use the dryway as a fire retardent and then use the wooden slats as wall paper on top of the drywall?
Yes, that's the idea.
It wouldn't damage the drywall's ability to be fire retardent to have all the little holes from the nails to hold up the wood slats?
Little holes don't matter. Flammable material near/on the drywall doesn't matter. Drywall doesn't let you start a big fire and walk away. But it buys the 20-40 minutes it takes the fire department to get there.
You said to paint the drywall before covering it, why?
My mistake. You say vertical wood strips and I envisioned "wainscotting" which comes up to about 30-36" from the floor. For fire and inspection reasons, you only need to have the drywall taped and mudded. Not textured, not painted. Hence, some people live in house that go unpainted for 15 years, because they were in a rush to move in and then never got around to it. What's on the ceiling? same stuff?
If I am using it as fire safety, are their kinds of drywall that are better than others?
It all meets minimal standards. There are some kinds rated a little higher for furnace rooms and behind wood stoves. No need for that.
I think I have seen bathroom drywall in stores, but I am not sure I understood, it is more damp proof?
Yes, it is more damp proof. Referred to as "greenboard" and color coded so it gets installed in the correct room. Is that something you would want everywhere? Usually no need to spend the extra $1-2 per sheet.
(It's a small house, it may have more moisture and the cost difference probably won't add up very much for the difference).
Far better to fix the moisture issues for good.
By "require fire rated sheathing over all the structure" do you mean the outside too?
No, only the inside of the building. The outside is usually covered with plywood or OSB (oriented strand board a.k.a. "waferboard") for shear strength and to keep the wind and rain and critters out. Also to attach the siding to (clapboards, shingles, cementboard siding, vinyl siding, etc).
By changing the 'roofline' you mean going from the 'dunce cap' (pyramidal) that I have to say something like installing windows (or skylight) in the roof, or anything with a different shape?
Usually you need to get a building permit for a skylight, a dormer, or an new gable. Anytyhing that changes the framing - the 2x4's and rafters.
By changing the footprint you mean also a demolition then, so if I remove the shed, I need to tell them?
Interesting Q. Maybe not. The thing is, if you go and ask, "Do I need to (pay you a permit fee and) get a permit for the this?" The answer is always "Yes." But, like driving 110 KPH in a 90 KPH zone, the real question is will you get caught? And if so, what is the penalty? Not getting caught is a matter of being on good terms with the neighbors and being very low-key if there is other construction on the street (i.e. the inspector is in the area). The penalty is usually just stop work and get a permit (but starting off on the wrong foot with the city).
And if you need to bribe inspectors like in SF or NYC, or they are particular onerous in their requirements they are best avoided. In the best of worlds, the building department and the building inspectors are your friends. You want to do it right. They want you to do it right. You are a beginner. They have seen LOTS of houses and know the codes thoroughly and can help suggest ways to solve the many problems that come up. Much like the guys here, they will usually try hard to help someone, especially a woman, who admits she needs helps and wants to learn. In my town, the permit for my whole house was $350 and having a second set of eyes checking everything was well worth the price. Plan review was next day. Inspections could be scheduled to plus/minus an hour with a day's notice. It doesn't get better than that. In Seattle, a moderately involved kitchen remodel would have cost $2000 to permit, constrained me greatly in my design and my schedule, and wasted DAYS waiting around for inspections to occur. So I did't get a permit.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
about permitsThis is a small lot, probably with setback reestrictions to water etc.Here, it is a good idea to get a plan and pull a permit when removing part of a structure - because if that portion of the structure is in a zone where new additions or construction is not permitted, the grandfathering is lost when the structure is pulled down.better to get a permit to "renovate" by removing and replacing, sometimes one wall at a time
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Michele,
"pink wool" is fiberglass batting. It is cheap and easy to install but has the lowest insulative value (R-value) per inch. You shouldn't see any of the insulation once it is installed (see above post about fire safety). Fiberglass insulation can sag years after installation although proper installation minmizes that.
"blue or pink solid sheets" are polyisocynate foamboard, commonly called "blueboard". It has the highest R-value per inch of thickness and allowes no air through the middle of the board (of course there would be gaps on the edges against the wood studs).
The other rigid insulation is white, polystyrene board, "bead board" because the beads break off easily. It is cheaper and less R-value per inch than blueboard and a little harder to work with because it breaks so easily.
Other options include spray-in fiberglass and spray-in ("dense-pack") cellulose. Either are better than fiberglass batting because it is higher R-value and less air infiltration. But you'd do the whole house at once. The previous options are easy as a DIYer.
Lastly, urethane foan can be sprayed in place. I have that in my house because it is the highest R-value per inch and because it expands to fill all cracks and nailholes and gaps, it very effective seals against air flow. It also makes the house very quiet. Structural, I live in a 2x6 framed house. Accoustically and thermally, I live in a big styrofoam cup. BUT, it cost the most, has to be done by a contractor and therefore, you'd need to have all the walls open at the same time.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hiya, So, ideally I want blueboard or the urethane foam then. Is there no problem wih off-gasing of the urethane? I had an uncle who built a house and then injected the foam, after his newborn daughter came home he found out that his wife and daughter were allergic to it. He had them living in a trailer in the backyard until he could tear open the house walls and remove it. It was the foam that made all the fuss and was later banned. I realize it can't be the same stuff, but it was such a big deal that it makes me wonder if it isn't at least in part the form of the foam that made it so volatile and dangerous. Since there are gaps in the outside walls and I am talking about leaving those intact, would I have to put some paper or something to keep all the foam inside (so it didn't ooze out the cracks)? If I did not put in a foundation, but wanted to insulate the ground under the house, could I make a blanket under the house (by lifting or outright removing the floorboards, putting down a layer of something like plastic and then a sandwich of blue board and or foam)? (small house)I've heard that sealing against airflow can be bad in a modern home that does not have forced ventilation, is it so impossible to seal an old house that I need not even worry about that?I can imagine having all the walls open at the same time, since I am not living in it until that part is done, it might even be easier to do that all together. What did you do about your basement? How deep do you have to goto stop the frost?Michele
Is there no problem with off-gasing of the urethane?
The foam guy was a pretty warped personality but he seemed to get a lot better after he started spraying. Kind of like any other caffiene/alcohol/drug/hot roof addict.
And I didn't go in there for the first day after it was sprayed.
I really haven't had nor percieved any problem with it. My wife has an especially sensitive sense of smell, although not pathologically so. I've worked with a "chemically sensitive" individual. Serious pyschological work might have helped her condition, but, as they say, only if you want to change. But getting attention seems to be more important. Yes, people can be highly allegeric to some things, peanuts and shellfish come to mind. I haven't met a "chemically sensitive" individual who could pass even a single-blind test. i.e. if they knew there was something suspect, they'd react. If they didn't know (but carperts had been cleaned, etc), then they didn't react.
"Since there are gaps in the outside walls"
Wow. Really rustic. Yes, you'd cover those with tar paper or Tyvek on the inside before spraying.
"I've heard that sealing against airflow can be bad in a modern home that does not have forced ventilation"
Houses can be so tight as to be unhealthy. Humidity, body odor, and (most importantly) any leak of carbon monoxide from stoves or heaters can build up. My house is that tight. So I have an "HRV" - a heat-recovery ventilator - it blows stale air out and fresh air in whlie exhcanging the heat between them to recoup most of the heat that would otherwise be lost.
Is it so impossible to seal an old house that I need not even worry about that?
Correct, your house will never be that tight.
If I did not put in a foundation, but wanted to insulate the ground under the house, could I make a blanket under the house?
If you want to keep the house warm, insulate the floor. From above maybe. More likely from below. If you want to minimize moisture in the crawlspace, lay 6-mil plastic sheeting over the ground in the crawlspace.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
There's a lot of variation from place to place as to what constitutes a "repair", what you have to get a permit for, what you have to get inspected, etc. It's a variation both in the rules and how nit-picky they are.You should probably start with an anonymous call to the building permit/inspection office to get the info. (It might be good to have a guy friend make the call, just to obfuscate things.) Some offices will be real friendly, others will be downright nasty. Same thing for the inspectors.You need to get a feel for "the lay of the land".
Where Michele's cabin is located it is highly likely she would be required to get a permit to do anything more involved than a paint job. And possibly even for that. The small communities here in the Laurentians tend to be like that.
However....
1. An awful lot of work is done without pulling permits up here. The ratio of permitted sites to 'illegal' sites is something like 1:10.
2. There are major differences here between a building permit and a remodeling permit. And we have something called a repair authorization which is not quite a permit and is much less involved. (It's principal function is to generate a few extra bucks for the city, of course.) There are no inspections of a job done under a repair authorization except in extraordinary circumstances.
From what I've read in this thread, she will likely be able to get away with either a blanket repair authorization or a series of repair authorizations for each of the separate phases she wants to go through. The fees and filing requirements for repair authorizations are much lower than for remodels or new construction. I think we're talking about $25-$50 each or something nor too far from that.
The biggest deal up here is septic installations. Because there is either a lake or 'watercourse' about every 37 feet in Québec, the rules are tight and the municipalities take them very seriously now...although this was not always the case. Ten years ago, a single inspection of the test hole would suffice if the inspector knew either the GC or the sub-contractor who was actually going to do the installation. No more: Today the inspector will visit to see the test hole and the percolation test; he will also require an inspection of the weeping field with the bed and pipes in place but before the top fill is laid on, and then another one afterwards; and he will supervise the tank installation and connections or at least require that he see it before it's buried. He will also usually require sworn copies of the granulation sheet and loading bills from the quarry for all fill used and from the GC or Project Manager as to all subs used.
If Michele can't hook up to the muny sewers and needs to install a septic system, it's gonna get interesting. That right there is one of the biggest impediments to sales of older chalets in this area. Because 99% of them don't have the square footage to install a traditional weeping field that will meet the new norms. So I'd guess without even seeing the place that it'd wind up needing a Bio-Filtre or other proprietary bale-filter system.
But first things first. She's still gotta buy it....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
(One more little bit)I prefer to reuse the wood slats that are original to the house rather than drywall (they are like the ones in old homes, and they make it feel cosier to me than drywall) are there things I should look for on the slats that make me see that it is not a good idea? (what would mold or rot or bugs etc look like?)I think they may have been painted with the solid paint that people used to use when cancer was unheard of (lead etc). Can I paint over it, or leave it, or would I have to strip it?
"(One more little bit)
I think they may have been painted with the solid paint that people used to use when cancer was unheard of (lead etc). Can I paint over it, or leave it, or would I have to strip it?"
Mostly, I'm a Civil Engineer cleaning up toxic waste sites. But I'm also an owner-builder. And an EPA lead-based paint inspector and risk assessor.
Yes, lead-based paint (LBP) is often found in older houses. In the 1950s and 1060s, you find it on exterior door, soffits, eaves and window frames. In moderately high concentrations.
Prior to WWII, you also find LBP in interior paint, especially doors, frames, bathroom, and kitchens. At medium levels.
1900-1910-ish and before, most all of the paint can have high concentrations of lead.
If left undisturbed and not on a sliding (double-hung windows) or impact surface (doors and doorframes) there is not vector for the lead into your body. But if dust is generated, then you can breath the dust and get acute lead poisoning. Worse, if there are 0-5 year olds around, their brain development can be greatly impaired. IQs have risen a few points just by getting lead out of gasoline. A bad LBP house could cause a 10-20 IQ point deficient in kids plus behavior and emotional problems.
You can have a inspector come test all the painted surfaces in your house for maybe $400. Or there are test kits you can do yourself, $15 or 20 for a couple of tests. Or you can send scrapings off to a lab. You'd send the worst case stuff - from an exterior door, window, soffit, and maybe some samples from the kitchen.
Demolition with a sledge hammer isn't a big problem. But using a power saw can be. For anything that generates dust, you should wear a HEPA breathing filter unless you've had it tested. Dry sanding is the worst because it generates the finest dust.
Hope that helps.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hey!So this means you are severly over qualified for my questions about paint and insulation that off-gasses! Ok, then, I have to do as you say (not that I would not have anyway) when I have the building inspector (private, not municipal) over, I'll ask him for test labs in the area, there must be someone doing it, if only at the provincial government level. I don't think I will be able to get an accurate age for the house, unless I find a little note in the walls from the builder... So if I test before I start to demolish or take things down I will know where the bad paint is and work from there.Thanks,
Michele
"I don't think I will be able to get an accurate age for the house"
Government records will have at least when they started charging taxes on it.
An experienced builder or inspector can tell within 10 of when something was built. I can, after working on 80 houses in New England. I get a little fuzzy before 1780, but for the last 220 years, I can nail it pretty close if I poke around. Styles, materials, and techniques changed over the years. Some info is local e.g. when the first saw mill set up - before that, lumber was square-hewed on site with a axe.
unless I find a little note in the walls from the builder
Look at the upper rafters or collar ties (horizontal boards between rafters) in the attic, that's where I've most often seen it. Maybe one or two houses in ten.
Once inside an interior wall in San Francisco, we found,
"Crowley & Sons, replumb kitchen and move entry wall. April 1934. This depression's been going on for 4 years. Roosevelt is President. Good Guy."
So we wrote, "Thomas, Thomas & Stover, sheetrocked kitchen/bath remodel and exterior walls for fire-rating. November 1986. Reagan is President. Not a good guy." And covered it up in the wall (for another 50 years?)
And I've found business cards from 90 years ago in the door frames (for the millwork guy) and the electrical panel (for the electrician).David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
I'm in Montreal too! West Island DDO to be exact!
Where in Montreal are you? You can use my profile to e-mail me.
"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
Hi,I agree with the 'fewer powertools' idea, especially since I like having fingers. But they are much harder to work with when you don't have a lot of skills. I do have a lot of patience though... maybe there is a way to keep my fingers and just work slower. Tool lending librairies, do they come with craftsmen? *soft smile*Mich-
You need someone (lawyer, contractor, friendly building inspector) who knows the ropes and laws where you live. In many areas there is some sort of law/regulation that will get you utility access (at least for the water) even through a disagreeable neighbor's yard.
You need to find out what the rules are for septic tanks, etc -- whether you can just "improve" your current septic or you must connect to city sewers.
It's not unreasonable to run pipes under the road. Done all the time, and not as expensive as you might think, since they can tunnel with a machine vs having to dig it up.
Forget about the cathedral ceiling. It's doable in some cases, but you have much more serious stuff to worry about (and spend money on) right now.
The foundation can be done. Not cheap, but not deal breaker, usually.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a metal roof, though it it's leaking you'll need to have it repaired, and it could be a problem that it's rusting through in places.
(OTOH, consider the advice once given to my dad for a remarkably similar house: "Insure it -- then burn it.")
Hi, I love the last bit of advice, I may need to remember it to get a good belly laugh going when the work gets too much to remember why I started it!I am very glad to hear you can build under a road without tearing it all up. I can't even imagine how much it would cost to rebuild a road! (I would rather bathe in bottled water for a few years, or in the river!) than pay 2x the price of the house on destroying and rebuilding a road. I didn't realize you could force (or be forced) to allow pipes. I wonder if that will apply to the provincial (Canadian equivalent to State) government that owns the lot on the corner. They put up a very nice building this past year, and I would have to cross the lot to get there with my pipes. I don't think I am going to get away with fixing the sewer though. The house has been unoccupied for a decade, they are not going to let me use the grandfather excuse. How would you do the foundation? (I can't picture it)Do metal roofs leak often? I am not in a salty area (far from salt water, only have fresh water up there), is it a frequent repair to seams or does it need to be done only when the whole thing has come undone?Michele
> How would you do the foundation? (I can't picture it)Basically they jack up the house, anywhere from a few inches to a few feet, dig out underneath it, and put a foundation in. Then lower the house onto it. In some cases (where there's space) the house is moved aside while the foundation is built. (While you're at it you can have the house moved, or turned to face a different direction.)Lots of variations, depending on the house, soil conditions, how deep they need to dig (likely 5 feet or so where you are), etc.Obviously, if you're going to do this you want to do it before you invest a lot in other improvements that would have to be redone after.
Good Morning, I can see that plumbing would be something you wouldn't do before, but what about a roof? Is it likely to "crack" or something when moving the house? Thanks for the mental image, I think I see what you are suggesting, but there are huge trees and just a small road in front, if I move the house I will block the road while the foundation cures. I am also unsure it can really be dug into, there is so much large rock around. (depth in the Laurentians is now 8 feet! it used to be 6ft but now they see more is needed. You should see all the cracked houses!)
Is it possible to insulate a house without a foundation? There is a space beneath the house (I looked underneath through an opening that I think is where the plumbing was put into the extension and there are about 12 to 18 inches under the house before the soil. The floor can be removed inside (only plywood, the flooring was removed at somepoint, seems to have been linolium or carpeting anyway). Could I pull up the floor and insultate then put a new floor on? The house is old and it hasn't shifted, there are no cracks in the walls, and it is not lopsided. I think it may be on so much rock it has a foundation built by nature. Michele
Insulation does not require a foundation per se, but it's hard to advise on specific insulation methods without more info. And there are types of foundations that don't need to go down to the frostline. One option is to place the house on piers drilled down to the appropriate depth. Another is a "floating" foundation essentially consisting of concrete beams that rest on the subsoil and keep the house from cracking as the soil heaves, etc. (Obviously the plumbing needs special attention for this style.)My parents' old farmhouse (the one that the guy advised burning) rested on a rock "foundation" that just set on top of the soil. But since the house was on top of a hill the soil remained reasonably dry year-round, so there was no heaving and relatively little motion. There were cracks in the plaster that would come and go with the seasons, but they were fairly minor. (Of course, this was in Kentucky, where the frostline was like 18" deep.)
Hiya, Yes, I guess the high frostline made the options more open. I'll get an inspector in and take more pictures for the thread so I can show what it is that I am starting with. Since it has been so stable so long, I hate the idea of messing with it... (it just ain't broke)Mich-
What you have is called a hip roof. Even if you conquered the problems of side wall bracing, you would not be able to get a full cathedral ceiling because of the sloped part on the ends. last year I converted a ceiling/roof from flat to cathedral, but it was expensive.
Generally speaking, any books published by Taunton are worth reading. Do a search at Amazon by publisher and you will find lots of choices. There is one by Larry Haun "How to Build a house" ... it's full of pictures and is centered around building a Habitat for Humanity house, but it goes through all the different stages and explains a lot of things, so it might be a decent general reference for you.
You could always host the next Breaktime Fest and we could do an extreme makeover in a weekend.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I couldn't tell from the description whether she has a hip or a cross-gable with four valleys.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
(on the roof shape)Like a little pointy hat with only one point in the middle, all the corners coming down. Like a dunce cap basically (ok, go ahead, laugh!), but a dunce cap you folded so it has creases... (I'll try to scan a pic)
I don't have much advice for you at this point, I'm afraid. Seems the fellas are flooding you nicely with it though.
Just wanted to pop in and let you know that your attitude ROCKS. And in all honesty.... that's half the battle. You're in a good place here and there's more good experience and advice here than you can imagine. This place'll be your best friend until you see this project through.
And with your attitude.... you'll see it through for sure. Good luck to you and congrats on your new home.
I dunno, man, She's gonna die of old age first at the rate she is aging. The first post had her at 37 yo and the profile says she's already 38.;)She does have a fun can-do attitude though. Suprised no-one has asked to see her picture yet to see if she looks as cute as she sounds.yeah, I asked for her picture - of her cabin. Let's see, who else do we know in Pittsburg?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
(am I suppose to see things said 'about' me) or maybe it was another helpless 30+ female you were discussing!I am 37, and I turn 38 on September 27, 05 (almost there!)but I did get a request for a picture of my unmarried sisters... which I try not to take personally (I was not issued the same request! but I guess a helpless sister-in-law with a shack in the woods is less work than a similar girlfriend)Oh, and if it is about me, (and not someone else), I am in Montreal Qc Canada.... cold weather but warm hearts (good R factor)Mich-
Edited 8/23/2005 10:16 am ET by mc
your attitude ROCKS. And in all honesty.... that's half the battle.
Yeah, have you noticed that she has received nothing but decent answers. No one has really given her any grief about her lack of experience and huge undertaking.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Nope! except for a few people who want me to realize that this is HUGE and want me to know that up front, I have been swamped with wonderful supportive people who want only for things to be done right and to use their experience to make things come out properly. (much more than luck, this is like being embraced by kindness)and I am listening! (doesn't mean I won't mess up, but it will be less messy than it would have been without them!)Mich-
should we tell her to avoid Jeff J Buck...
he's in her neck of the woods ;)?
Good morning, Thank you so much, yes "the guys" are amazing! Not only are they laughing with me, but they are answering questions and not just rolling their collective eyes. It is very very reassuring to have them there. It is a little overwhelming to have all these interdependent systems to think about. Each one affects the other and all of them need to be taken both individually and collectively. *sigh* It is very nice to know there are so many nice men out there willing to be gentlemen for the sake of it.(thanks for your note, it makes me feel better about this)Have a lovely morning, Michele
The pictures you posted don't look as bad as what my first project looked like.
You need to develop a comprehensive plan. Decide what the priorities will be and what is absolutely needed, if parts are beyond repair the plan can change a bit.
Envision what you will require to live there, and set some goals or phases. That way a large task can be broken down to manageable parts. When something gets done it feels like an accomplishment. If you go in many directions at once, many projects will be started an not much will look finished. This can be very frustrating.
Good luck
Thank you, I think I will print that out and re-read it every time I get a head full of ideas at the same time. I know what you mean about things getting over whelming and needing to have small things finished completely so you don't feel like you are drowning. My biggest fear right now is getting things in the wrong order. I have seen lots of articles about how someone just finishes a perfect ________ (floor, wall, staircase, landscaping etc) only to have to dig it all up because something else should have gone before. I'll make it my mantra "one thing at a time, small projects leading to a whole"Thanks for the encouragement! (maybe I should show you the inside too, it may just be the great paint that makes it look better than it is! *weak smile*)Michele
Somewhere I have a picture of a piece of insulation hanging from the ceiling of the old house. I called it the insulation monster because of it's profile. I will have to find it and post it.
It might be a little too scary for me right now, maybe put a warning on the pic!
Hiya mc-
You know I got to thinkin'.You ever get to thinkin'?
Since you've already bought your home and show all the interest and willingness to go ahead and renovate it might be worth it for an unplanned cash outlay expense you haven't forseen.
You already know that a picture is worth a thousand words and what you are beginning to undertake is going to involve a lot of little things and much effort on your part.
The reason I'm saying all this is I'm setting you up to help you see what the value of owning a digital camera could be to you in the long run as it will help clarify things in your questions here to the Breaktimers on this forum.
I'm not talking about an expensive one but just an average camera which now can give you nice clean and closeup shots for detailing the many questions which are to come.
I, as most other posters I'm sure, applaud your ambition and undertaking as apartment rental gives your money away with no thought for the future.
Finally owning your own turf and and learning the art of renovating will provide you great satisfaction after you've cut your teeth a bit. The basic shell you are starting with isn't as bad as some that others have attempted.
I took the liberty of resizing your pics for the dial up patrons here who have a hard time downloading larger files.
Don't concern yourself over the size of any other pics you scan to show here as we can easily help you out after you get them posted.
Here's to you girl, Cheers! You can do it.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Thanks for the resize, rez. If I'd tried to download those big pic's of Michele's I coulda redone her roof before they loaded....
I'm 'right down the block' (about 20 minutes away) from this place she's bidding on; we've been in touch by e-mails are now waiting for her to getan answer from the seller later this week before getting together to look at the joint and make some coffee on my camp stove, LOL.
I've seen so many of these lovely old summer cottages left to rot and fall down. I'm glad this one seems to have somebody willing to put the $$$ and sweat into saving it. From the photos, it doesn't look terminal yet. I have seen much worse, no sh!t. That's the good news.
I'm on the case, brothers. If necessary, we'll fling a big-arsed tarp over the whole thing until next spring but I got some time open this fall and I'm saving it in case she gets lucky....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I thought of you, but figured you were further away than that. Give me a failing grade in Canadian geography.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
where's canada?
From:
CAGIV <!---->
9:45 pm
To:
Piffin <!----> View Image<!----> unread
where's canada?
It's a suburb of Buffalo, according to my HS geography teacher in Ohio....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Lemme ask Ron
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Calvin cued me into Michele's situation and I got in touch with her by e-mail. We're now waiting for her to get an answer from the seller via the agent. This chalet she wants to buy is about 20-25 minutes down the highway from my place. Half the guys I work with in the winter live down there 'cause up here's become too pricey now.....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Just remember Dino - Everybody's watching you...nervous yet?
I'll keep an eye on them two. Tee Hee.
"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
Nervous? Who, me? Nervous?
R-U kidding?
What is there to make me nervous? I mean, she's only
Piffin's Baby Sister!!!!
why should I be nervous????????
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
what happened to mc?????"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
She didn't hear from the realtor by the deadline, and he's not returning her calls. So she figures her bid was topped by someone else's.
I told her to hang in there, because it ain't over till the fat lady sings, i.e.: if the 'successful' bidder's financing doesn't go through, the snarky realtor who today isn't returning her calls will be calling her to see if he can reactivate her interest in the joint....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hi, Well, it's harder to write this than I know how to explain in an email... I normally don't let myself get attached this deeply to things when they are in the planning stages. Writing this is difficult because I have to acknowledge that the house is not going to happen, and even harder to end this forum. The realtor finally got around to returning my calls, and the answer was made obvious by how long it took. Someone else now has my little headache, and I can stop stocking up on aspirin. *small twisted smile*The one wonderful thing that came out of this is that I met all of you. It was amazing to be surrounded by all this generous wisdom and kindness. Your patience and encouragement were remarkable and I have never before felt so protected. I wish I weren't writing this letter. I wish I were writing to tell you that I signed the papers and that I wanted to ask you all to raise your coffee cups (or water bottles or pencil holders if nothing else is at hand) and roll up your sleeves, as we are about to begin the real work and you are going to need to be able to type quickly to save me from my naivety. I wish I weren't here, writing this, and that is why it took me so long to let you know. I copied all your emails into a word file and I will print them out and keep them. Someday, there will be another house, whether I build it myself, or find something I can love back to life with a lot of patience (and duct tape). There will be another house, but there will never be another bunch of guys like all of you. You were amazing, and I am grateful to have had the experience, even if there is no happy ending, just a hopeful postponement. It hurts to sign off on this and I hope you realize just how much I enjoyed your kindness and your company. Thank you, Michele (Don't fall in love with real estate you don't own, but feel free to enjoy the sincere kindness of strangers)
They always break your heart, but you know you'd do it again in a heartbeat.
*softer smile*thanks
This might be a blessing in disguise. I don't know the financial details of this real estate transaction, but you would definitely have learned a lot in a short time.
You asked this board many reasonable questions and in return many responses to your questions were answered. Armed with this information your search for another home will be guided by what you have learned. Don't be too upset about the loss, just prepare for the next opportunity. You know where to go when you have a question now.
Good luck
Thanks, Normally I do see things that way too, and I hope I will see this one that way soon. There may well have been an insurmountable problem that I did not know about. (I lost a bid once before, by not bidding before I could get a confirmation from the municipality about whether or not it was possible to fix the septic within the municipal guidelines. Somone else bought it without asking the question and the property was back on the market 7 months later, and I suspect it was not 'fixable'). So maybe I was spared something hopeless that would have broken my wallet along with my heart.I know it doesn't make sense, and it was probably my being tired of looking. I am going to (try) to stop looking around for the time being, as winter is a pointless time to buy a cottage that needs this level of repair work. (and snow banks are not a good thing to buy they hide too many sins) I'll try to find my mittens and have some fun in the snow until spring. I hope you'll still take my 'calls' when I do find a place, thanks again for the help (& support)Michele
Michelle.
I don't believe we've ever talked here on BT. But reading your farewell post got me to wondering if you realize what this place is.
Sure, it's a place where questions are asked and answers given. Sometimes nice and sometimes not. Still, with the varied group we have here, you can almost hear every opinion on anything if you read long enough.
However, it's so much more than just a question and answer forum. There's a sense of community here that becomes real apparent if you ever go to one of Breaktime's Fests. You can find some friendships here along with all the knowledge.
Take a look at some of the Fest threads in the Breaktime Fest Folder. Also, see if you can find the LONG thread in Photo Gallery I think, by KC Marie on her addition project. This young slight woman, along with her husband came down to NW Oh. to meet many of those that helper them on they're dream addition. It took a bit of coercion to get them to take the hour and a half drive, but If you ask KC whether it was worth it I'm sure you'd get a resounding Yes.
Stick around, you might have a good time.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Oh, come on Cal, we're really just a bunch of old farts who want to prove (or pretend) that we can still get it on with a SYT.
Very important thing you point out Dan, and Michelle take this to heart.
The minute these lecherous bastards see a female poster they jump right in to help. Oftentimes they use the "little sister" ploy and even email you through the board. Be wary of this. Sometimes safer to use a unisex name.
Now Dan, are you coming out?
Very good, more should.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
There was once a lecherous old fart
Who cared so much for his art
That when MC joined in
foundation to trim
He came out to uncle calvin
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Where's that limerick cop when you need him?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I think the limerik cop died because we didn't feed and water him enough lately
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Coming out? Well, I try to keep it zipped up. Can't help the bulge.
Well, that should scare her away.
Nice going.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
wimmin's do get a bunch of new "friends" when they be postin'!
:o
Looking at prospective properties can be fun or at least a hobby. If you see something you like or dislike it can help narrow your search.
As I told you before, we never intended to move or build another home. Since we did not have a choice, we incorporated the changes in our new home that we did not have in our last home. Our new home was "built for the dogs".
Keep following the the breaktime posts, I always find a piece of information to store in my mental roladex for later use.
There, there, now Sis... If there is one thing I have learned about fate or destiny or providence or whatever word you want to attach to it ( I call him God) it is that when one thing falls through, it is only because there is abetter one just around the corner that I hadn't had a chance to see yet.So now that your eyes are off this one, you have a wider view.We'll still be here. Maybe next time, you can put us to work advising early in the inspection phase to help you assess the good and bad points of whatever you are entertaaining .
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL, talk about chaperonage...you have the whole Kingdom of Taunton hovering over your shoulders
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, and what's worse, they're considering coming up here next summer to beat me up if I blow it, LOL....
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=62337.1
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Edited 8/28/2005 2:38 pm ET by Dinosaur
Edited 8/28/2005 2:39 pm ET by Dinosaur
I'm saving it in case she gets lucky....
Lucky???? SHe found you so I'd say she got lucky!
"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
Thank you rez, that sounds like great advice, I think I will try to find one. I used the Polaroid camera the day I went to visit it, as I had it handy and I am fond of Polaroid, but you are right, it would be nice to point it (with a good flash) and be able to have several to choose from (especially in this instance). Thank you for resizing the images, I let the computer do it by default, and I should have forced it to make them smaller. Thanks for the advice (it will make getting advise simpler)Michele
That sounds like he is right, it's a hip style roof. Can do that OK with metal. Since you are trying to insulate too, and you have realy cold temps, here is one way to consider.remove the old roofing materials, shingle probably? You will need help for this or you will blister your baking thumbs.Then nail dow tarpapre, then some 2" dow exdruded foam panels. Comes 2'x 8' or 4'x 8'. you hold trhis in place by placing 2x4s horizontally over it ( sometimes 1x4s will do) at 16" OC. You use long screws ( from GRK canada ) to fasten the sleepers down through the foam and into the original sheathing. Then the metal roof panels are applied to the sleepers. Suppliers of the metal roof apnels have instructions so you can study them to see if your helper is doing things right.I'm really giving you this idea for hiring it done or contracting a roofer. It is way out of your set of skills from what I hear.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good Morning, I read in an article (I think it was FHB) that you can leave shingles on (if there is only one layer of them) and shingle on top. This does not apply if you are putting insulation, right? you would not want the old moisture trapped inside? or just the unevenness of the materials? There was an ad in the mag for a special kind of plywood made for roofing. Is that really better, or just an ad? Why do some roofers use a membrane and others a tar paper? When you nail through the membrane haven't you damaged it? (is it like a pond liner?) Oh, and what is OC? (it is everywhere in the magazines but no one translates it!) Are sleepers the wood you are laying horizontally over the foam? (wouldn't laying them vertically give any trapped water somewhere to go? In the article on roofing they said that you wanted the shingles to have non-continuous adhesive so the water can escape faster withoug accumulating, wouldn't that apply to the slats as well?) *sorry for all the basic (and naive) questions, this is like learning a language*I saw some ads for solar panels that fit into metal roofing. Any experiences with that? I might not be able to connect them to anything when I do the roof (solar would be much later, after the house is stable), but if I can set them in while I am there, seems like it would save some headaches of opening up a roof surface(sounds like once it is sealed you don't want to mess it up at all).Thanks for your answer, and I must admit it does sound like the kind of thing I would LOVE to do myself (and be in way over my head if I tried it!) Maybe I can find someone (roofer) willing to let me be an apprentice on my own roof job. *soft smile*Michele
Piffin can answer most of these better then myself but I'll give a few of then a shot.
You CAN shingle over one existing layer of shingles if you want, but it's not a good idea, it adds extra weight to the roof structure and causes the new shingles to wear much more quickly then normal. Some people do it be cause it saves a little money in labor.
What add where you talking about? can you post a link? Are you talking about Advantec plywood? 5/8 ply would be your best bet in my opinion, then 1/2 plywood and I would not recommed 7/16 OSB
OC refers to On Center. The spacing for framing members, 16" OC is the most common, 24" OC is also used quite a bit for roofing, 12" OC is also used one example would be using synthetic decking requiring small spans or stiffer floors etc.
then there is 19.2" OC, take a look at your tape measure, have little red or black diamons? thats what those are for.
12,16,24,19.2 all divide a 4' wide sheet material equally so it makes it much easier to install sheathing, siding, drywall, subfloor etc.
If you're in Pittsburgh there's a good shot Jeff Buck could recommend you a roofer.
Good Morning,(last question first, I am in Montreal Quebec, even colder than Pittsburgh! so no roofer from there is going to come all the way up here for my little roof, unless he is a major humanitarian and the UN requests it based on how helpless I am -from "doctors without borders' to 'roofers without borders')Thank you for that explanation! wow, now so much is clearer! (I realize this proves me so uninformed I should be blushing, but instead I am so impressed! It is so clever that whole thing about the marks on the measuring tape and that it makes sheets divide without creating lost bits) very very nice. I don't have the magazine with me, but it was a full page ad on the right hand page of the (july/aug 05) FHB, said something about being made for roofing and it had a picture of the plywood lain at an angle pointing up like a mountainside. (although false memory syndrome is possible here, I will find it and write you back in a few days when I go back where I left the mag)Thank you so much for your help! You guys are so amaing!Michele
sorry I skimmed most of the thread, I looked at your profile and saw Pittsburgh, PA as your location.
but if you have enough beer up there you may still get Jeff to come up.
good luck with your project
We have lots of beer! (and no trouble keeping it cold!) thanks again for your message. I tried to look up my profile to correct the location, but I don't seem to find the place where they ask you where you are. I just put Michele, Canada as my name. ... but if Jeff's price is beer for roof... as long as he waits until he is done the roof to drink it, we may have a very good exchange to make!Thanks, Michele
CAG, actually, the weight is a minor issue with most roofovers. Until you get up to three or four layers anyways.Labour cost and disposal costs are the bigger issues, and on some jobs - will I be able to finish before it rains again?I referred to Pittsburg because her profile has that for location. Since the cabin is north of montreal, I figure she is not living there, but it is a summer commute or something, while she earns the moola to spend on this advenbture in the statesI'll keep reading now to get caught up. missed a day or two...
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OK, I suppose by noiw all those brownies ands soft smiles have gotten you answwers while I was gone, but I'll try to throw my version at you with a soft underhand pitch.I have done this with sleepers over the shingles. Actually more often on old camps and cabins because those are often settled to the point that they are less straight in each roof plane. I can shim to make the sleeper lie straight and then the roof looks much better. But the existing shingle surface would be too rough for the foam insulation. You want it tied down firmly.OC means On Center. It is a typical layoutr term carpenters use to indicate the distance from one piece to another. Center of each sleeper would be the same distance from one to each, as indicated. It might be 12" 16" 19.2" or 24" commonly.BTW, You think good and ask good questions. Tell Mom I said you are a chirp off the old block, Sis!The Q about horizontal vs vertical sleepers is one good one. As long as I have good underlayment, I don't worry too much about going hoizontally, but for the very best situation, you could run the sleepers vertically, then apply another layer of plywood or Advantech sheathing to have a surface to fasten the metal roof on. Doing that, I would probablu also run another tarpaper or RTII before roofing w the metal.membrane covers a lot of territory. Tarpaper can be considered a membrane genericly, but the word is getting re-defined. some newer underlayments are tougher than tarpaper. One I use is called RooftopgaurdII and I learned about it here.Roofs that are not steep enough for shingles or metal get different types of materials put on them. Continuopus membranes without seams or lapps are used there. Membranes are also reinforcing materials used with coating saturations to waterproof foundations sometimes."*sorry for all the basic (and naive) questions, this is like learning a language*"Don't you dare apologize! You are entertaining us and lighteening our day(s) or nights as the case might be, and I can pretty well gaurantee that there are hundreds of people reading this thread and learning the basics right along with you. If I were an editor of a DIY magazine, I might do a series based on this sort of scenario, where a single gal is writing to ask her contractor brother what to do about the___
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Do you recommend this kind of roof (foam sheets/ 2x4 sleepers/ steel) for a cathedral ceiling? Would it need a ridge vent, and if so, how is it done, in this case? We are converting a previously uninsulated building to living quarters, in a cold climate. Would condensation form between the steel and the sleepers?
I have been reading Breaktime for quite a while, and learning new things. In the winter, I had access to a 10-year collection of back issues of FHB, and read them all.
For new construction or for priomary insulation in cold climate, you are beeter off with structural stress-skin panels. to achieve a minimum R-30 in the top, with foam at about R-5 per inch, you would need six inches done this way. I was recommending it is a part of a roof replacement to be an adjunct to insulationm in her ceilingcondensation depends on many factors. I know of some low-income housing done similarly to this with four inches of foam under the sleepers. but being done by HOs and volunteers, on extremely steep roofs, they were laid in with many gaps at butt joints. This created cold spots and air leaks that brought on the condensation like ants to a picnic. When doing this, the joints should be tight and sealed wherever possible with spray foam from the cans such as Great Stuff which is common on many shelves. For your situation, it depends somewhat on framing style etc. The far better choice is to spray faom from inside to bare rafters and sheathing. The isolated location of the subject of this thread led me to assume that importing the equipment to do this would be expensive or impossible. A better description of your building would make recommendations easier.
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Before replying to your post, I was checking the availability and cost of icynene here (Prince Edward Island, Canada) and discovered it is available; however it costs eight times as much as fiberglas of equal R-value. Is it really worth so much extra cost? The sales rep said their product is rated at R4 per inch.
Our building is a 25 yr-old wood-framed one-story on a slab, 30' x 32'. The rafters are 2 x 8, spaced 24" OC, presently uninsulated, with a good 3/4" spruce board roof deck, and asphalt shingles. The interior is a mixture of posts and beams, and some stud wall partitions-- it was originally a horse barn. We would like to keep the cathedral ceiling to give a feeling of spaciousness since the building is otherwise rather small. An architect looked at it and said the structural part is okay.
The slope of the roof is 1:2 on one side, 1:3 on the other; sort of a low saltbox style. The asphalt shingles need to be replaced, and we are considering a steel roof. A contractor has suggested putting fiberglas batts inside the rafters. Then foam sheets and 2x4 sleepers outside over the existing roof, covered with new steel. Would this design work? Would this type of roof have to be vented at the ridge?
We would like to have at least R40 in the roof, including 2" foam boards in between the 2x4 drywall strapping inside the cathedral ceiling, and are prepared to do the careful sealing of the vapor barrier, down to the last inch. The contractor would do much of this project, but we would be doing some, too.
For sprayed in place foam applications, I use urethene foam which has twice the R-value at about the same price as icy. The other advantages of it are elimination of dew points and condensation, and it makesa great noise isolation/reduction system. it is its own vapour barier and allows absolutely no infiltration.but for you, for the best value, I believe I would do the following - #1 forget FB batts - most especially in the cathedral cieling or i can gaurantee that you will come back here wondering what you can do about the roof leak/condensation problems after a cold winter. It is almost impossible to ventilate a catherdral cieling adequately, so you must reduce or eliminate cold spots that condense moisture out of the air. FG Batts will not do that.#2 install one of the many systems made to allow ventilation immediately inside the sheathing.#3 install foam panels 1-1/2" thick on the inside of the roof rafters - not ripped between them, but laid across them. You can get plastic-cap nails to tack it up temporarily. Then tape the seams and use canms of spray foam at any gaps or penetrations - try to reduce or eliminate those penetrations such as can lights. The foil faced iso foam is rated about R-7 per inch. XPS is R-5 more or less.#4 use 4" screws to fasten furring strips over the foam panels to hold them up and to grant you something to fasten your finish surface materials onto, whether T&G bords or sheetrock#5 before doing the sheetrock or whatever, blow the rafter spaces full of cellulose or chopped fibreglas, known as denspak or BIBBs( blown in blanket systems) in a space of 2x8 rafters, you will have about 6.5" of the dens blown fibres at around R-3.5 or so per inch for R23 between rafters, plus R-10 in the foam.The foam will reduce thermal bridging, and act as a VB and eliminate (if installed tight) dew points for condensation. The insualtion system is then separate from the roof and the VB is on the right side of the assembly.
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Thanks very much for the information. If we decide to use the sprayed-in urethane foam directly onto the inside of the roof deck, does that mean we would not need a ridge vent and a ventilation channel? And no polyethylene VB?
For the other system, which you described so clearly, what type of tape do you recommend for sealing the seams between panels?
First Q = correctsecond Q = they sell a peel/stick foil tape at same stores that cary the foil faced foam. Thermax is one brand name.
Good duct tape can also do the job. The idea is to stop air from moving through the joint with a tape that is good enough to remain there for infinity, or for a few more years than you think it needs to anyway.
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This shows a number of different roof shapes.http://www.cmhpf.org/kids/Guideboox/RoofTypes.html
thank you! Fabulous! I have a Pyramidal roof, with a side thing on the addition that is like a shed roof. (wow, I printed it out and I will make a binder of all the bits & pieces I find of info for later use)Very cool, thank you very much, Michele
Hi, As long as my new roof is not all hype... From flat to cathedral wow, sounds like a major change! Did you live long without any roof at all? "How to build a house" the title sounds like Sesame Street, which should be just perfect for me! Hey, if you guys are willing to come on up for a weekend and build me something out of the pretty little headache I just bought, I'll make the coffee! (of course you'll have to get the water connected before I can make the coffee, but I am sure that will only take 20 minutes with all this experience coming together!)Michele
Someone's probably said this already, but it bears repeating: Before you get too far along you need to have someone knowledgeable go all through the house and identify any areas of rot. This could be anywhere from the beams below the house to the roof rafters, to anything else in-between. While you have everything torn up it's a lot easier to fix these areas than it is to come back after you have new flooring, new roof, new skirting around the house, etc.
Actually, you are the first to say it, (and I had expected that advice myself). The plan is that as soon as the documents are done, I will bring a house inspector (not affiliated with any contractor or salesperson) come over and look at it. I have used him before (on a house I did not buy) and I liked how thorough he was. As to checking for rot, do you take samples (drill little cylinders) or make holes to see the depth? (the unpainted rafters are grey in colour, and if you can see it in the shot of the inside of the screen porch, the inside roof (from the vantage point of the trap door in the ceiling) looked the same colour. I'm not confident it does not need new rafters. I think there may be rot there, not I did not see any in the walls. Funny, but having no insulation in the walls may have killed the rot in there, the paint is good and the wood is mostly dry (except in the shed like addition).What are the signs of rot gone too far? Mich-
An ice pick is the best tool for checking for rot. Occasionally you'll get a beam with rot on the inside and nothing visibile on the outside, but not very often.