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My MIL has a house built in the early sixties with a 100 amp electrical service on breakers. Every time a high current device, Refrigerator, Garbage disposal, hair dryer etc starts the lights will dim in the entire house. I understand that at start up electic motors draw more current but it doesn’t seem right to me that lights on totally different circuits will dim at start-up.
I told her that I’m no electrician but it doesn’t seem right to me and I suggested that she get an electrician in to check things out. She doesn’t think any thing is wrong and doesn’t want to spend the $.
If I’m right I need some ammo to use to convince her to get her electrical checked out.
TKU in advance.
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Scott, I'm not an electrician, but I understand that several things can cause that, some of them potential fire hazards.
It is up to you, of course, whether that's a concern worth passing on to a MiL.
Before passing on the info, you might discretely inquire as to whether you're in the will
*Thought you wanted rid of her.........but maybe have a look at these two threads first, and try the search feature for more. Joe Hhttp://webx.taunton.com/WebX?50@@.eea9209http://webx.taunton.com/WebX?50@@.ee86a81
*Scott: An air compressor or heat pump might pull enough amps for a second or two to dim the lights, but a hair dryer?! If this happens all over the house, it is not a problem with a single circuit, but with your electrical service. Somewhere between the power company distribution lines and your circuit breaker panel bus bars, there is a lot of resistance. Run the hair dryer, etc and test the voltage in your breaker panel. It will be low (<110 volts) if the lights are dim. then go back upstream to service disconnect and incoming wires. still low at that point, problem is either drop wires or their connections that's your utility's problem. read numbers letters off (like "2 awg al xlpe" for american wire gauge size 2, aluminium, insulation type) call an electrical supply house see it rated 100 amps.If you find a point where the voltage drop goes away, then there's a loose connection, a corroded junction, or a bent and (dangerously) worn wire. Feel the wires and breakers for excess heat.Cavaet: If you not are comfortable working inside the service and ditribution panels, DON'T. This is a straight forward trouble shooting job for an electrican.
*Scott, I agree with David. Lose neutrals,conections, and all manner of evil things can be wrong inside the service box. Ther is also the possiblity that the transformer is not tapped correcty, or it has the faulty ground. Start by calling the utility company.They will use check thier side of the service free. If its' not them, then good luck with the MIL.
*Many older homes around here have 100-ish service, OK if you have gas heat/dryer/range/hw, no A/C, etc. But your MIL's problem sounds extreme -- there shouldn't be brownouts with such small loads.As a starting point, let your fingers do the walking: call the power company and complain. As mentioned, the pole transformer or service drop may likely be defective, and diagnosis/maintenance of everything up to the meter is their job. You also ought to check with them about upgrading the service to a more "modern" 150 or 200-amp level. They're ordinarily thrilled when someone wants to increase their electrical consumption and may do it for free.If the fridge is older than 15 years -- I bet it is -- consider gettiing rid of it. The new ones are so much more efficient that the cost will be recouped in electric bills. We saved about $10/month.
*The size of the service doesn't tell the story as much as how the circuits are designed. This would be a factor in a 30's house like mine, but in a 60's house, I'd have to agree with the earlier posts -- there's more likely a problem in the system's operation than in its design, I'd think, since it's systemic. Discount the fact that it's only 100 amps -- look elsewhere for a flaw. I've not yet met a utility company that will gratis upgrade a home's service to 150 or 200 amps. Maybe the thought was that they will upgrade the wires leading to the meter? I would also not make "hip shot" statements about the value of upgrading appliances solely on their age. When does a new $600 "efficient" reefer break even in energy costs over a paid-for, less efficient, but still operational one? $10 a month, if believable (and I really doubt that), would equate to 60 months, which means five years. Sounds like a good reason for a MIL on a fixed income to hold tight for awhile.
*Well, you should get out more. Here in our part of Northern Virginia the policy is to charge to remove "existing adequate service" -- but nothing to reinstall whatever size replacement is needed. (We priced having ours relocated underground and were quoted $400.) If your current service is "inadequate" -- I don't remember what the standard is -- I think they give you a really good deal. Again, the idea is they'll recoup in by selling electricity.Refrigerators consume less than a third the energy of a 20 year-old model. A modest modern unit uses about $60 of electricity annually, that's $120 less a year or $10 a month .... which was our experience. Plus the icemaker works. See listings at http://www.energy.ca.gov/efficiency/appliances/index.html
*Well OK, just to comapare notes ..."Inadequate" is when the appliances and the total number of circuits being supplied exceeds the rating of the service panel. In actual practice, this is when there is no more room at the panel, even when using mini-breakers (OK, I didn't say it was a good idea - I said "actual practice", so all you sparkys can calm down).Out here, if you want to upgrade the panel size, a project manager from the the power company comes out to the site to determine if their cable coming in is adequate. If not, they (meaning San Diego Gas and Electric) will pay for the new cable to the meter, a trench inspector's visit(s), and supply you w/ a new meter if necessary.You will pay for trenching, shading and backfill out to the utility owned pull-box or transformer (if underground), new mast and service head should a greater size cable require it (overhead service in that case) and any related costs to that. Either you or your electrician will disconnect and remove the old panel and install the new panel, and connect the new OCPDs. All of which you buy yourself.So, no - increased electricity usage or not, you won't get much free out of the power companies around here. And should you need to "upgrade" a gas meter or move the riser location, you'll pay all your own trenching costs as above (whatever they amount to), PLUS a $400.00 fee. Unless that's gone up since last June, in which case it's more.Geo.
*As the two Davids noted, call the utility and indicate that you suspect a corroded pole connection, probably the neutral. Eliminate that possibility first. If it isn't that, they may be willing to provide a recording ammeter at your panel to monitor VD.
*Scott,Lots of rediculous armchair yak here....So here's mine.Main service....(Pull meter to kill panel)...check lugs for main entry wires...Redo as needed...they must be sanded free of oxidation, then lubed and lastly tighten down properly...including any ground wires to ground connections...pipes and rods...This is to be done by someone who knows how to work safely with electricity. If this does not do the job, then it's electrician time.near the electron stream,ajNote...older services often have very loose lugs as I have discovered..I now regularly tighten lugs on homes that I work on even though I usually am working on a completely separate project. In fact, I have yet to find lugs that did not need a turn tighter.
*There are as many policies as power companies....We're not forced to go underground with new service, though some places do require it for appearances (the reason I've contemplated it). So if a drop cable is Ok and service is inadequate it would be free -except- for the sparky's time. Old equipment makes me nervous, probably unnecessarily, but i do like to see it go away. We have one of the split-bus panels with no master breaker, kind of disturbing to work on a live box. (Here, only the utility company can pull the meter, it has an anti-tamper tag on it.)AJ's right about the lugs, Al expands and contracts a lot and loosens, that's part of why it didn't work out so well as internal residential wiring.But my point was: start by calling the utility because they're free, they may be able to fix it for free, and they're relatively unlikely to get electrocuted or burn the house down. (On the other hand ... a friend in Mass had a lightning strike ground out through her house because the utility forgot to ground her pole. Oops. Destroyed every appliance and melted the in-wall wiring, made a terrific impression on her, but no fire thank goodness.)I'm a Scot, I like free.
*i Lots of rediculous armchair yak here....It may seem ridiculous to you, but the exact same thing happened to me - a bad neutral at the pole caused flickering and lots of light bulbs to blow, early, along with one VCR.Ditto here on the anti-tamper tag.Jeff
*Thanks for all of the advice.Unfortunately she live quite a distance from us so I won't be able to get down to her house until x-mas. I'll have her call the utility so they can check out her service. I'll try to convince her once again to get a local electrician in.I think that the 100 amp panel should be sufficient for her, no A/C, no heat pump, gas heat although her kitchen appliances are electic. One more thing that just clicked after reading all of the above, . When I was down over Thanksgiving I was using my Skil saw and it seemed if it was running slow, also late in the day I picked up my saw, held the blade guard open with my thumb, pulled the trigger and got shocked. I just figured the saw was wet since it had been raining all day. Probably would have been useful info and I apologize for not thinking of it earlier.
*My mom also had a bad neutral, we didn't really know there was anything wrong until we had our old steam heating boiler replaced. The plumber started cutting into one of the pipes with a sawzall, and blew his motor - and damn near got killed. Since the neutral wasn't working right, the ground was working too well - the pipe cut was carrying the "excess" current. He called an electrician friend to come over immediately and look at the problem, he & electric util. managed to trace it back to bad connections at the pole.
*OK...I agree...check the pole for free....That said....The tamper tag is ripped open...then stuck back together...I have no fear of the utility when I work for a customer...If I did it at my home, I would call them and tell them I had to do it for safety reasons. I have done it many times and will in continue to. And as for the bad neutral at the pole...it has to go past a bad ground at the house to do what you all describe.near the e stream,ajScott...Check the outlets for reversed wiring...buy a receptacle tester.
*AJ - I had a cold chill when I investigated at our house. On top of the bad neutral, the cold water pipe grounding connector had corroded and fallen off, thus the panelboard was not groundedi andthe neutral was bad. There were also no GFI outlets at the time. I shudder to think ....
*Jeff,Exactly my points....Glad you checked it all....I check lugs and all for bonding at least every ten years...or when I can't remember the last time...near the stream,aj
*AJ, I hope you use a torque wrench when you tighten those lugs. Service box mfg., the NEC, and local utilities require service connects be torqued at between 60 and 80 in/lb. More or less is one of the reasons they "get lose".
*AJ:The tamper tag is easy to remove and hang back in place. The next meter reader will report it and /or fix it. The tamper proof bands however are a different breed, and usually put on around here when the tag has been tampered with. It is a steel band heavier than the one used with the tag, but has a bolted connection that takes a special tool to remove. A sawsall would suffice, but that would make some people mad. You must call the power co. to remove it. I have had the meter reader come by while in the process of changing a service, and they stick on the tamperproof band seeing I cut the tag. Like they didn't notice the new meter base bolted to the wall?Frank DuVal
*Just a note to anybody else having the dimming problem if you get it on only a few circuits you may want to check to make sure no one has doubled up the wiring under the breakers. This will also cause dimming. It's also possible Scott if the house is small enough that all your MILs lights are on the same circuit. One thing to remember about old house wiring is the old timers liked to make their joints up in the ceiling lights instead of the switch boxes. Just a tip if your hunting down loose grounds and neutrals.
*Provided there are no obvious boo boos discovered in the box, such as two circuits running on one breaker, etc. it may not be a bad idea to study the layout of the panel and perhaps consider rearranging the circuit breakers if it is determined the loads are not balanced....Rex Cauldwell talks about balancing the load in a main panel in his book "Wiring A House". (p 69 & 71.)"Inside the house, if two loads of any kind will be on at the same time, put them on opposite phases.""A balanced load is wired so that current on one leg is equal (or close) to current on other, so current cancels out in neutral. In two circuits - one with a freezer pulling 5 amps and one with a refrigerator pulling 5 amps - are put on same phase, or leg, current in both neutral and on service entrance hot leg will add up to 10 amps.If same curcuits are put on opposite phases, they will still add up to 10 amps in hot leg but will cancel out to 0 amps in neutral."
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My MIL has a house built in the early sixties with a 100 amp electrical service on breakers. Every time a high current device, Refrigerator, Garbage disposal, hair dryer etc starts the lights will dim in the entire house. I understand that at start up electic motors draw more current but it doesn't seem right to me that lights on totally different circuits will dim at start-up.
I told her that I'm no electrician but it doesn't seem right to me and I suggested that she get an electrician in to check things out. She doesn't think any thing is wrong and doesn't want to spend the $.
If I'm right I need some ammo to use to convince her to get her electrical checked out.
TKU in advance.