Need help with old radiator pipes
110-year old house, 13 solid water radiators with 1 1/4″, 2″ and probably 4″ inch black pipe for parallel supply and return. I decided to tear out all the horizontal plumbing in the basement (leaving the vertical pipes in the walls), re-plumb with PEX and install a new high-efficiency boiler. For the life of me, I can not budge the old fittings on the existing pipes . I’ve tried heating them and using a big ‘ol pipe wrench, no luck; I’m afraid if I put too much torque on those old pipes – especially the ones near the vertical runs in the walls – I’ll damage something up in the walls. I’ve tried various ‘thread looseners’ with no luck. What do I do? I’ve already started cutting out the main pipes, but have made sure there is a fitting at the end of each supply and return. My thought was to cut the 1 1/4″ near the wall and use a high-temp semi-flex hose of some type, slide it over the cut end and insert a pipe nipple in the other, and then use hose clamps to secure it, leaving me the threaded pipe end I need to attach the PEX fitting. Help!!
Replies
The old cast iorn fittings can be very difficult to remove. They can be fractured off with a sledge or maul but I don't reccomend it. I cut a V notch out of the fitting with an angle grinder with a metal cutting disk. Take care to not cut too deep so that the pipe thread will be usable. With a notch removed the fitting will break loose and unscrew.
You might want to practice on some scrap to get a feel for how deep to cut into the fittings.
Good luck.
Did the same thing in our house. The plumber that I hires just walked down the line and wacked each fitting with a small sledge, fittings just cracked/split and fell apart. Did not dammage the pipe or threads.
Be prepared to have a colder basement. Those large pipes put off a lot of BTU's and by going to 3/4" copper as I did, or pex as you plan, you will loose BTU's that heat the basement and your floors above!!
My wife noticed a big difference in heating the 1st floor. Not saying it's a bad idea, but you should see an effect!!
Have you tried P Blast to break the joints loose? Much better than anything else I have found.
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Thank you for the comments. Others have suggested just whacking them. I may have to give it a try... For a guy who's into demolition and tools of destruction, I have an odd reluctance to do this. :-)
As far as the colder basement, we actually stopped using the furnace and radiators several years ago. The gas bill was sky-high, and the chimney was in terrible shape above the roof and it had to come down. It was actually taking down the chimney which lead to this whole project, as it would have cost me more to have that rebuilt than to buy the new boiler. We've been heating the house for at least 6 or 7 New England winters now using nothing but a couple ventless gas fireplaces/heaters. We've gotten quite used to the cooler house, and the much smaller utility bill, but the day will come when I have to sell this house and I figure I'll get a better price if it has a regular heating system.
ventless heaters...........be careful, might wake up dead, and that worse than being cold, unless it's cold dead!!
Like one of the other posts said, to remove old cast fittings use two hammers on them, one as a back-up and the other to hit it.
You do realize that changing your system to pex you will have to run it close to the original lay-out and size or take a chance of the system not working correctly; have you checked out the price of the bigger pex?, wow!
I tried wailing away on one that was already cut out and lying on the concrete. Couldn't crack it... :-(
Regarding PEX size, I've spoken with many plumbers and PEX manufacturers - Even Richard Trethewey from This Old House - and all have assured me that I can replace all that old black pipe with 5/8" PEX, and 3/4" if I'm branching out to several radiators. (I work for a woodworking magazine and get to go to all the Builders shows)
It could be that someone used malleable fittings instead of cast, they won't crack.
I don't see how you can reduce your pipe that much, I would make sure before I put it in and found out it won't work, luck.
Actually, 1/2" pex to each
Actually, 1/2" pex to each rad from a header will work.
I did that very thing in my own house. I don't have a lot of advice for opening the fittings. I had to replace a few back to the radiator (used 3/4" copper; once it's painted you don't even notice it). Lots of cussing, and many, many trips to the hardware store.
Wouldn't worry about the pipe size. Cast iron rads are very forgiving. They are not as influenced by flow rate as fin tube systems are--basically, you have a pot of hot water to fill, and if it takes a little longer to fill it, it doesn't matter. Once the radiator is full, it heats for quite some time. I went to a manifold system.
There were two consequences that I hadn't really thought through. First, as someone else pointed out, the basement is going to get colder, which will make your floors colder. I solved this by running pex under the subfloor in a suspended space. Not exactly radiant floors in that the radiators are also still working, but a very comfortable house. Literally did not need my slippers this winter.
I also started getting a lot of air in the system. I think it was because I increased the resistance to flow. I am still using my old boiler. I switched it so that the pump is on the supply side of the boiler, with the pressure tank and spiravent just downstream of the pump, and that solved it.
I'd talk to someone before installing a high efficiency boiler. I've heard rumors that a condensing boiler does not work well with CI radiators.
I
Replies to several of you...
Regarding the cold basement; Yes, absolutley it is colder, but as I mentioned we are used to it by now, and if money holds out, I'm going to convert the terrible in-wall kitchen radiator to radiant heat in that room.
Your correct, several of the plumbers, and Richard Trethewey said 1/2" PEX would be sufficient.
Ventless gas heaters; If I wake up dead 'Life's a Bitch'... Seriously, if we haven't woken up dead yet, we ain't going too. And besides, this old house is no where near a tight envelope. I have Carbon Monoxide detectors but they've never even 'winked' at me. Any build-up of CO will go right out the doors (two teenagers in the house) and windows, (original and drafty). I know many of you will now tell me I need to get all that fixed and put in replacement windows, Energy Audits etc. Believe me, there is not that much money in this families treasury. Once those radiators are cooking, they keep everything plenty warm in spite of the windows.
I've heard good and bad about the condensing boilers for my area. However, they do make higher efficiency non-condensing boilers that are far better than the old 30+-year old one that is in the house now
And finally Marson, your are very correct regarding how the radiators work. Once they are full of hot water, it only takes a small amount of incoming flow to keep them hot.
Thanks everyone, my task at hand is still my original; how to get those fittings off so I can begin installing the PEX
Automotive radiator hose comes in sizes that will enable you to do it your way. You may have some building code inspection issues with what I think of as a patch not a fix.
You can go here for help too. The wall is a foum for heating problems / questions.
http://www.heatinghelp.com/Forum
What do you guys think of this...?
http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-16040/Detail
I could fit this over the cut end of the 1 1/4" pipe with a pipe nipple in the other end, then step down to my PEX fitting.
Keeping my fingers crossed...
Ziffy
If you have glycol in the system, galv is a bad idea. Try a 3 or 4 foot piece of pipe on the end of the pipe wrench. Haven't seen a fitting that wouldn't eventually budge or break. If the fittings have a thick "collar" they are cast and will break..
Finally got it!!
Ford Meter Box part number C85-55 - a brass, 1/1/4" compression fitting to 1 1/4" male pipe. Now I can cut those old pipes where I can't get the fittings off and use this compression fitting to go to pipe thread. Yea!!
Only problem is the suckers are almost $30 each! That's incentive enough to try and get as many fittings off as I can as otherwise I would need 26 of these. An $800 expense not calculated in :-(
Thank you one and all...
Ziffy
I found on pipes i heat & CANNOT break free, do exactly what youre doing, but you gotta tighten that sucker. Youll understand why. Dude one day of me and my frustration i got mad at a giant one that wouldnt budge. I say fine ill just be a whiner and try and ruin it. Lol. It moved a little bit. And acted like it never had an issue reversing. I think its from the sealant used.
Fun fact- some old rads are reverse threaded. I just received two 80 ish year old rads, both similar in look, fittings still attached (unfortunately). One was threaded regular- the other reverse threaded into the rad. I used a socket (spreads the stress across the nut), a 24" breaker bar and then a 6' pipe to turn them out. Clean threads once I got the direction right, then came out pretty easily, but I was a tad nervous with all that torque on the fitting.