A couple of carpenters died this week from carbon monoxide poison. They were running a generator in the house they were working on, a third is recovering.
http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/news/state/061114smithfield.html
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
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Replies
boy, I hate to sound callous and cold blooded, but I think Charles darwin had something to say about this...
A good thread, never too smart to be reminded of safety.
But you got to wonder who would set up a generator in a house ? The noise factor would be bad enough, without even thinking about C.O.
My guess is they had ventalation downstairs but none upstairs.
Real shame though.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Reminds me of the stories that were going around after Hurricane Katrina...people were running their generators inside their houses, because if they put them outside someone would come along and steal them.
I agree with you. It's a tragedy.
I've done plenty of bonehead stuff and have had plenty of near misses and so I look at it as "there but for the grace of God go I." Sure I know enough not to fire up an engine indoors, but who knows what other stupid stuff I've done and never even knew it.
These guys just weren't thinking and some paid with their lives. It's a very, very tough lesson.
Reminds me of just last week, cutting an old roof off a flat roofed building with a cornice that was to remain. As I'm cutting the last deck board on one end while leaning on the cornice, I don't know why but it never occurred to me that the deck boards were the only thing supporting that cornice -- just in a hurry to "get 'er done" I guess. It and me came "that close" to headed for gravity -- as it tipped forward off the building with me leaning on it I caught a rafter with one arm and the cornice with the other and we both survived. It was a very, very stupid mistake that I'll never make again. But it was only luck that I'm still here. And I know that -- and appreciate it.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Sorry man, but if you're dumb enough to run a generator inside a house you're working on, you deserve to at least die.
Would've only been a matter of time before they shot themselves with a nailgun or something.
Same reason I only put lighted smoke detectors in the hall way and not the bedrooms. If you cant find your bedroom door you probably shouldnt.
If I sound callous, dont know what to tell you. I'm so sick of everything being someone elses fault.
Edited 11/15/2006 8:20 pm ET by MSA1
A senior professor at a top college and his wife died after starting his car in the garage. His IQ was higher than yours and mine put together. It doesnt take much of a mistake when it comes to CO. If you start to get a headache and are around a gas engine...get fresh air.
Have 2 CO detectors in the heated garage used to fix cars in the winter.
Even with a hose from the tailpipe to outdoors and low ppm cars, it is amazing how often it goes off if a car is started.
Almost never goes off for the wood stove even if a puff of smoke gets out.
Is there really a correllation between IQ and common sense? I may seem harsh but the way I look at things, falling into a wood chipper would be a dumb thing. Screwing around by the intake of a wood chipper while running one would not be a dumb thing, it would be a stupid thing.
I'm just saying that we do all do dumb things but come on, runnning an engine in a house? Sorry, sounds kinda stupid to me.
Edited 11/16/2006 10:14 pm ET by MSA1
I'm just saying that we do all do dumb things but come on, runnning an engine in a house? Sorry, sounds kinda stupid to me.
Running an engine inside a house is a dumb thing, and so is saying someone deserves to die from it!
Sarcasm or not, and I can be just as sarcastic as the next but come on, they deserved to die?
Doug
Interesting how you make a big distinction betweem "dumb" and "stupid". I never thought the two words differed so much in meaning. May be I'm too dumb -or is it stupid?
Sorry Sharpblade, not gonna answer that question but i'll give you an example of my own stupidity.
When I nail trim too close to the edge and crack it, I did a dumb thing.
However, when I spent the last fifteen years abusing my back and developed a fragmented disc, that was just plain stupid.
I will say this with no sarcasm. Having replied to all of the criticisms i've received here, you guys have made my think about the way i'm received by others so, I say again that i'm sorry about offending you guys.
Peace.
genetic cleansing...
I think you hit a sensitive subject, and it came out a bit harsh. We're all afraid of death, and something similar to like this could easily happen to any of us or to our loved ones.
My comment was strictly on your use of terminology (dumb vs stupid), seemed you were beginning to overreach with your argument. I now accept the distiction you're making.
No offense whatsoever on this side & Peace to you too.
Same reason I only put lighted smoke detectors in the hall way and not the bedrooms. If you cant find your bedroom door you probably shouldnt.
Yeah.....damned six year olds who can't handle being awoken by a blaring beep and keep their panicking contained enough to find the door in an unlit, smoke filled room don't deserve to live!
That's not callous....its just plain stupid.
FREE SPONGE BOB,SANCHO PANTS!
I knew I would get this reply about the detectors. Sorry about that comment. If you knew me you'd know that I have a sacrastic sense of humor from time to time. Admitidly its not always taken the way I intend it to.
I doubt their families thought they deserved to die, MSA1. Nobody was blaming anyone else. They made a bad decision, for whatever reason, and paid the highest price.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Maybe they didn't know that CO is a lot heavier than air and were working below the level with the generator. OTOH, when a space fills with exhaust, it's going to displace the good air, too. CO is a major problem since the warning signs are often slight before passing out.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Maybe they didn't know that CO is a lot heavier than air and were working below the level with the generator. OTOH, when a space fills with exhaust, it's going to displace the good air, too.
I'm not a chemist, but according to the FirstAlert web site (I think they should know), CO is about the same weight as air. The reason I looked this up is that your statement worried me, since most of my CO detectors are mounted pretty high on the wall. Could you be thinking of (non-toxic) carbon DIoxide?
I have 2 carbon monoxide detectors in my home. the instructions that came with them say mount them no more than 18 inches from the floor
What brand are they? That is NOT right - CO is lighter than air (slightly) and rises. CO detectors have to be mounted on the ceiling to be most effective.
If you mount them near the floor, by the time they go off, you will likely already be overcome by the fumes (assuming you are standing or sitting).
It was my understanding that CO2 is heavier that air. That is why they should be mounted between 4 to 5 feet off FF. Anyone know for sure?
S
No, CO is definitely lighter than air.
Here is a link if your high school chemistry is a little rusty
http://www.firehouse.com/training/hazmat/training/2001/12_vapor.html
At atmospheric pressure, all molecules occupy the same volume in a vapor space. The densities of different gases thus vary accoring to their molecular weights. CO has a MW of 28, CO2 is 44, nitrogen is 28 (same as CO), and oxygen is 32. Air, being a blend of oxygen and nitrogen, has a mixed average MW of about 29. Thus a slug of CO2 will sink in air, while a slug of CO will tend to rise, if anything. When I say "slug" I mean a volume of gas rich in the particular component, because the individual gases diffuse into each other and in time disperse naturally. If they didn't, then the oxygen and nitrogen in the air we breathe would separate on their own, and we'd have to get down on all fours to breathe.
Detectors are generally placed up near the ceiling perhaps to keep them from getting kicked or opened by little kids but mainly because what they detect are the results of combustion (CO, smoke), and the heated combustion gases are definitely lighter than the rest of the air in the room and tend to move along the ceilings and up stair wells.
I'm only telling you what the instructions said. I'll ask the chemist when she gets home
If you think CO2 is non-toxic, go ahead. That'll kill ya just about as fast. You know, "hold your breath till you turn blue in the face" isn't an old saying for nothing. You turn blue from lack of O2/too much CO2, you turn slightly red from CO.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
CO is a poison. CO2 is not. Your body is making it as we speak. CO binds directly to the oxygen carrying proteins in your blood preventing them from binding and oxygen and delivering oxygen to your brain. CO binds to these proteins with an affinity approximately 20,000 times greater than oxygen. When you hold your breath you are depriving yourself of oxygen. It has nothing to do with CO2.
When you hold your breath you are also retaining CO2, and that is in fact what makes it so difficult to keep holding your breath. The CO2 is the primary drive for respiration except in people who have chronic lung disease.Rebeccah
OK, breathe some pure CO2 and see how long you last.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
That's not because CO2 is a poison, it's because your body requires oxygen, and if you're breathing pure CO2, by definition you're not getting any oxygen...But I agree with you that you're not going to last very long breathing a lot of EITHER CO or CO2...
---That's not because CO2 is a poison, it's because your body requires oxygen---It can be either, or both. It is often hard to sort out what is the cause of what, and hypoxia (insufficient oxygen) is in the end the most lethal problem, but it is not *purely* a matter of CO2 displacing O2 in the inspired air.CO2 *is* a toxin. It is a normal metabolic byproduct of respiration, but if the body does not eliminate it, then among other things, it throws off the body's acid-base balance which screws up all kinds of cellular functions that depend on pH.* This condition is called "respiratory acidosis", and it can be acute (such as in a drug overdose that suppresses respiration, acute airway obstruction due to a severe asthma attack, or fatigue of the respiratory muscles due to neurologic disease), or chronic (such as due to the chronic airway obstruction of emphysema).---and if you're breathing pure CO2, by definition you're not getting any oxygen...---OK, if you're breathing pure CO2, but I was talking about toxicity, not asphyxia. CO2 is way, way, way less toxic than CO, but it is toxic. Both have physiologic effects that decrease O2 delivery to the tissues, and CO2 has other effects as well. In the case of CO the physiologic effect is direct and very dramatic, with only a tiny concentration of CO disabling a large percentage of the hemoglobin's ability to bind O2, even when breathing oxygen-enriched air. In the case of CO2, the effect is indirect, and is seen only with a much greater concentration of CO2 -- so great that the concomitant dilution of O2 has greater lethality than the toxicity of the CO2.Rebeccah*Among the toxic effects of CO2, probably mediated by the decreased pH, is decreased blood flow to the lungs, which further aggravates the problem of getting enough oxygen. There are also effects on the heart (increased incidence of arrhythmia, for example) and the brain (such as encephalopathy and increased intracranial pressure, generally reversible).http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic16.htm
http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/AcidBaseBook/ab4_4.php
http://www.emedmag.com/html/pre/tox/0500.asp
"In experimental models of acute CO2 poisoning, however, central nervous system and respiratory status deteriorated within seconds when FIO2[fraction of inspired oxygen] was maintained at normal levels, which suggests that CO2 is not just a simple asphyxiant but also has acute systemic effects. "
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=197162
CO2 *IS* toxic, but it's not as dangerous as CO.Hypercarbia, or an excessive concentration of CO2 in the blood (some is normal), is the primary "respiratory drive" in humans -- if you have too much CO2 in your blood it makes you breathe deeper and faster, and you feel like you're suffocating. A lack of oxygen also stimulates respiration, but much more weakly -- in fact, not enough to keep a normal person alive all by itself. CO displaces oxygen on the hemoglobin molecule and binds very tightly to it. I'm not even sure it stimulates the hypoxic respiratory drive (medical school was a long time ago), but it definitely doesn't produce the horrible suffocating feeling that CO2 does. The most dangerous symptom is plain old sleepiness. It also causes one heck of a headache, but by all accounts the sleepiness is even stronger.
People just die in their sleep from CO poisoning.Rebeccah
I lost a friend due to CO a couple of years ago. My main point is that people can't breathe CO2 and lve.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
But you can also deep breath a couple of times to wash out all of the excess CO2. Then hold your breathe and you can pass out.
True. You can decrease your hypercapnic respiratory drive by decreasing your CO2 level, and the hypoxic respiratory drive is not sufficient to make you breathe before you pass out from hypoxia.It's going to be awfully hard for you to hold your breath in a room with a high concentration of CO2 in it, though. Well, maybe unless you have COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, such as emphysema or chronic asthma).Rebeccah
Look. I'm certainly not pleased to hear that their dead, but some things will result in death.
Running an engine in a dwelling falls into that category.
People blaming others was a blanket statement. I was refering to the litigious world we live in. I wasnt in the house were this happened so I dont know why they choose to do this to themselves either.
We all say things without thinking. No one will know why they chose to run the generator in the house. They may have just run it for a few minutes. Construction work is dangerous any way you look at it. We all have some horror stories. It never hurts to be reminded how quickly things can happen and how dire the consequences can be. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer. I've never seen a detector on a job site under construction. With winter coming and many of us cooped up with various types of heaters, trying to stay warm, it might be wise to spend the few dollars to have one on hand. We may not get a second chance. A teacher friend used to say, "we can fix ignorance but stupid is forever".Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
A teacher friend used to say, "we can fix ignorance but stupid is forever".
You're kind of arguing my point arent you?
"if you're dumb enough to run a generator inside a house you're working on, you deserve to at least die."
Considering we ALL do dumb things from time to time, I'd say that's pretty harsh.
Think about it next time YOU do something dumb that you know you really shouldn't have done...
Ever wonder why the sun lightens our hair, but darkens our skin?
I disagree that running a gasoline engine inside a house would be classified as a "dumb thing".
I do dumb things all the time but I try not to put my life in jeopardy.
"I disagree that running a gasoline engine inside a house would be classified as a "dumb thing"."
I'd say it's pretty dumb.
But as I said - We've all done dumb things in our life - Including you.
I hope God doesn't judge you as harshly as you're judging these guys.
The graveyards are full of indispensable men. [Charles de Gaulle]
Boss, I didnt mean to judge them, but as I said, some things will cause death if you do them. Sorry that I made so many people think poorly of me for pointing this out.
>> Sorry man, but if you're dumb enough to run a generator inside a house you're working on, you deserve to at least die.Would've only been a matter of time before they shot themselves with a nailgun or something.Same reason I only put lighted smoke detectors in the hall way and not the bedrooms. If you cant find your bedroom door you probably shouldnt.I'm just saying that we do all do dumb things but come on, runnning an engine in a house? Sorry, sounds kinda stupid to me.I knew I would get this reply about the detectors. Sorry about that comment. If you knew me you'd know that I have a sacrastic sense of humor from time to time. Admitidly its not always taken the way I intend it to. <<Why don't you quit while your not ahead!!!Sounds like you've taken in some CO.Your smoke detector comment was as dumb as it gets also. How else would anyone take your sarcastic sense of humor, you keep saying that people should die. Your sarcastic sense of humor SUCKS!!Every time you talk you sound a dumb as the guys who put the generator inside the house, but they did not deserve to die at all. Do you deserve to die for being dumb? They made a dumb mistake just like the rest of us do. No one deserves to die for making a mistake like they did.Joe Carola
Joe,
I'm not saying people should die, but these people put themselves in jeopardy.
On my sites i'm very conscientious about safety and keeping my guys safe. No one on my sites are allowed to put themselves in a position that may cause injury (be misuse of tools or buckets used as ladders).
I dont like to hear that anyone died, but i'm just not gonna cry when someone does something just plain foolish and tales their own life.
If this makes me an #### than I guess i'm guilty. Sorry I offended so many.
I wonder if you'd feel the same way if it was your son that made the mistake. It must be hard god d#$n work being so perfect, or does it come naturally to you. Your statement lacks class. What does that say about you..............
With all due respect.......
Jeff
Edited 11/17/2006 5:14 pm ET by JeffHeath
I'd be crushed if it were my own son, but more so i'd be pissed at myself for obviously not teaching him well enough.
I'd like to think that I do have class but I also have seen the changes in society since I was a kid.
I know that as a society we have learned and grown but some of the benign warnings that are now part of our lives has kind of jaded me.
Think about it, there's no car commercial without a "professional driver closed course" warning, not a Mc Donalds coffee cup that doesnt tell you the coffees hot, and not a bucket of mud that doesnt warn you that a baby could drown in it.
Sorry that I came off as an ####, I didnt mean to.
Awfully good of you to respond in kind. My faith is restored. We can always point the finger at every incident which occurs, but we all make mistakes, some worse than others, with life shattering consequences.
My brother-in-law, who was like a big brother to me, made one in 1989. Not a day goes by from that day until this one that I don't wish I was there to take the keys and punch him in the hose. I'll never get the chance, and he definately knew better.
Jeff
I say, is anyone hired to finish that job?
Seriously, safety and common sense seem to be issues ignored more often than not, as a musician and a carpenter, I have always sworn by firearm ear protection (thanks D. Sprague!). That and safety glasses, and dust masks - it amazes me how many macho guys are too tough to be bothered, yet years later.... My last soapbox point is setting up smartly. Take the time to set up a good working space for yourself, I recently spent a full day cleaning out an HO's garage so I could have a covered space to work in. (yeah it's figured into the estimate...)
One of the men who died was the owner of the as yet unfinished home.
It was his father who found his dead son and another man deceased. One fellow was still alive and taken to the Hospital.