We’re putting in a small deck that, can you believe it, was just “framing lumber”. Boy, was it rotted out!
Anyway, the yard the pressure treated was from said that Simpson Strong Tie is recommending that Nervastral (www.nervastral.com) be put on the ledger and the joists ends be wrapped with the stuff. This is addition using the, I think they’re called, triple coated hangers.
I’m not the most experience with this, but what a JOKE. More $$$ for the hangers and now this stuff. Just takes more time and then the hangers are tight from the extra material.
Its probably too soon, but from what the yard rep said, Simpson is saying they’re getting feedback that the new PT stuff and the extra coated hangers are corroding.
I’d be interested what other have observed or seen.
Replies
This galv.bolt was used in a display by Hilti Fasteners. It is a galv bolt. It was in an acq post as part of an outdoor display for about 6 months ..
<img src="http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a173/JoeWood_/ACQCorrosion.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
Is that a hot dipped gal bolt?
I don't know about that Matt. I picked the pic up off of another forum site. I'll ask ..
From what I can see in that pix it looks more like allthread unless they put two nuts on it, there are threads showing past both hex's.
I am getting ready to try to beef up a deck that has been there about thirty yrs and seems structurally sound albeit way off from today's codes. Planned on doubling up many structural members and adding joist hangers and bolts. The original material is supposedly either cedar or redwood depending on who you talk to. I have not cut into any of it to tell.
Would really hate to make it stronger but heavier only to see the updates end up making it weaker in a few years.
I've got one I need to add an addtional 2x8 to the existing beam at the post line. The original beam was let into the 6x6 post and through bolted with 1/2" galvanized bolts, washer and nuts. They added one of those porch enclosures and a room full of furniture to the formerly open deck. It met local deck code loads when I built it, but now that it is enclosed it needs to be brought up to current code for loading as an interior space.
Adding the new acq stuff over those existing galv. fasteners gives me great cause for concern.
I am thinking of layering some Denshield between the old and new treated stuff, just to protect the old fasteners.
Think that will work?
Dave
Beyond my knowledge, I have not done anything with the new (acq, etc) stuff except put down some plates on a slab. I am getting concerned about long range liability with this crap. I am not resistant to change and like to try new things but I think this is one of those deals that was not thought through properly. I see class action suits in the future.
The deck I was talking about has no joist hangers anywhere, spans that would curl your hair, support posts and piers that do not come close, railings that would keep a wheelbarrow from going over the edge but nothing smaller. Not to mention the stairs that have the stringers sitting on a board laying on the ground. Other than a couple of timbers that were poorly chosen with some knot/grain issues it is pretty sturdy. It has stood for half my life. A sharp pointed knife will barely dent any timber I have checked.
The owner's brother was ( as in used to be) the county inspector and I asked him to look it over with me. He totally agreed with my thoughts on this project.
This thing is 76 feet long and 8-10 feet deep. It would be a shame to tear it down and rebuild. Figure with moderate upgrades, doubling rim, doing railings to code, rebuilding steps, etc it should last another 10 or so.
Back to your question, when I built my own I let in one 2x and put a 2x6 under the second 2x component of the beam. They were roughly 18" long and did a 45 deg cut on the bottom.
Sounds like you have a bunch to consider on this one other than the PT issues.
Boy did I have a brain fart, CRS, senior moment or something, when I said Denshield. My mind was on the Grace ice shield product, but it didn't get to my fingers. Talk about a disconnect!
The deck I am going to beef up is 12'x35' feet with joist 16" oc, and 6x6 post at 8+' on the outboard side. Everything is 2x10s, so I am safe for the span. The ledger board was through bolted to the rim joist at 16" oc staggered with 5/8" galvanized bolts, and all joist are in hangers on that side. It is the single outside 2x10 , and lack of hangers there that scare the sh!t out of me.
The deck enclosure is one of those insulated alum. panel jobs, which in total isn't that much weight, but the windows bump that load up enough to concern me. The actual room only covers half the deck,but the roof covers all of it. It is the enclosed part with couches, chairs, end tables and the crowd that gathers out there that could be a big problem.
Of course the guy that sold and installed the deck enclosure system said, "no problem, it will handle the weight with ease." Unfortunately for him and the HO, he was killed in a bike accident six months after the job was completed. No permits, no inspection, and no liability now. You know the next guy in line is the one that built the deck.... me.
I got the ok to beef it up, but like you, I am concerned about adding the acq lumber over old lumber that was put together with fasteners the new stuff may attack.
Maybe someone else has some experience and advice they will share with us.
Dave
Darn, I figured you were on to something (or was that on something?). {:->
Here is the outer edge of my deck. It is 48 x 12 with a 20' section covered and screened in the middle.
Looking at your pics and reading your description, I don't see anything wrong with your deck other than whatever rot might be there that the pics don't show. No need to double up the rim board - the load is supported by the girder which is well supported as shown in your pics. Re no joist hangers, well, in the part of the pics you showed, no joist hangers are needed. If your railings are loose, some additional hardware may be in order, but not sure joist hangers would do the trick. Double the rim board? Why? Do you think your house has a double rim board? So why your deck? Steps terminated at grade via a board laying flat? Not my preference, but common practice, and, at least around here, is to current code... Girder is let in/bolted to 6x6 posts(?) and diagonal bracing is bolted up too so what's not to like? If it is rotted or otherwise unstable then fix it, but other than that, why fix what ain't broke?
Edited 9/4/2005 7:47 pm ET by Matt
This is not the deck in question. I was just showing Dave a technique if he added another 2x to the one he has that had the beam let in to the post. The one I am talking about shoring up is a heck of a far cry from this. This is the one you and I were sparing about over lag bolts and attaching joist hangers to the house band,rim joist.
The pictures are of my house, finished in 99. The county chief inspector who inspected it said it should be here when the house is gone. (An exageration since even the old cca won't last that long).
I hope to heck you would not find anything not to like. The one I am looking to work on has a ledger bolted to brick veneer, single 2x8 (hate to call them beams) perp to ledger extending out 10 feet for the most part and on the two ends only 8'. It has some joist spans of 16' 24" oc. The railings have 2x4 uprights cut down to 2x2 where they attach to the single rim which is setting on steel lally type posts. The rail has one horiz 2x at mid hight. The stairs are terminated on a board ( does not look treated and like a poor repair) just before it gets to a nice concrete sidewalk.
Oh - OK - I misunderstood. Well, your deck looks very well constructed - similar to some I have built. I like the way you let in one board of the girder into the post and then scabbed out with a 2x? to make things line up for bolting.
BTW - Ashville must be really nice this time of year...
For other people reading this: those bolts in his pic are probably 5/8" (not lag bolts). Strong enough to hang a car from :-)
Edited 9/5/2005 3:25 am ET by Matt
Thanks, I think it is a good touch, as you point out it makes bracing easier and does not overly reduce the posts cross section. Two posts not shown hold up the doubled 2x12 supports for the screed porch roof. I would have hated to take out 3" out of 5.5.
It has been in the high 50's at night the last few days. I need to refill the Jacuzzi and enjoy the evenings.
And yes, the lags we were talking about are not shown, they are in the rim joist to help secure it to the end of the ladder trusses.
Started on that deck repair today. It is redwood and the decking and structural parts seem very sound. The railings were toast and the steps were pretty well shot. Talked to guy that helped his father build it and got some clues of their thinking. Owner would prefer to shore it up, I am going to figure a ballpark for total replacement. This thing is over 700 sq ft.
Edited 9/7/2005 10:16 pm ET by rasconc
joe.... it may be "galvanized" but it sure ain't hot dipped galvanized...
View Image
that bolt would have rusted with the old stuff too
and TH.... enough already with your cedar & fir don't rot... i know different
PT is great stuff.....
AND... ledger construction is not code allowed...
joist hangers ARE REQUIRED... so you really ought ot put a disclaimer in some of your advice
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 9/5/2005 7:52 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike, my friend doesn't know what type that bolt was, but it does look like hot dipped .. electroplate galvey looks a little shiny and yellowish, not that flat grey like this one, but who knows, we just have to be very carefull with all our connectors these days.
Mike, are you sure about that ledger construction not being Code ? Can you show me the language ?
>> AND... ledger construction is not code allowed... joist hangers ARE REQUIRED... so you really ought ot put a disclaimer in some of your advice << How about if you add in a little qualifier saying something like not code allowed in the areas where you build?
Not arguing here - just discussing :-)
irc 2000Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Must be the way your local code officials choose to interpret it. We use IRC2000 and ledger strips. Or, maybe NC choose to delete that page... You would not have a section # would you? Or maybe RI added something...
I agree with Dino that it has worked for hundreds of years, so it must not be that bad of a practice.
matt.... the BI told me today.. i can use a ledger.. minimum of 2x2 fastened 12" OC with 20d spikes....
also... if you look at the deck section of the code.. the framing has to be designed for both shear and lateral resistance.... very hard to get.. especially on the outside band.. unless you are using a joist hangerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, sincere question here:
How does a joist hanger give you better 'shear and lateral' resistance than a ledger with proper toenailing?
Seems to me:
(a) The joist is nailed into the hanger with nails working in shear.
(b) The hanger is nailed to the 'ledger' or rim joist (a better name for it) using nails which are working in shear...but only for support. They're working in tension against lateral withdrawal.
So if there's a serious lateral moment tending to pull the deck off the house, the joist hangers are gonna stay attached to the joists...and both are gonna go thataway as the joist hangers pull right off the face of the rim joist.
But, if a joist is toenailed to the top of a ledger which is lag-screwed to anchors set in the foundation wall (or through bolted to the main-floor rim joist), the nails are working in shear in all directions except against uplift (which we aren't concerned about in this scenario), and the lag screws or bolts are working in tension, which they are way better at doing than nails are....
So...?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
th... i guess you don't get to use a modern joist hanger...
the ones we 've been using for about the last 10 years put the nails into the joist in a toe-in
the withdrawal resistance is far superior to your toe-nailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good guess on that 10 years, LOL. The last time I used a joist hanger was in '95.
I had to attach the rafters for my own porch roof to the face of the building wall at the point where the lower part of my gambrel curved down to meet it (the two roofs blended into one at that point). For that application, hangers seemed to be the logical option. The soffit was to be nailed directly under the rafters, so there was no place to put a ledger where it wouldn't have been seen and I didn't feel like looking at it....
I will have to take a look at the newer models you mention. Not often I would need to use them, but the occasional job comes along where it might make sense....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
th.. here's the Simpson site with description of their "double-shear" hanger
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/LUS-HUS.htmlMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
th.. here's the Simpson site with description of their "double-shear" hanger
Thanks. I'll take a look at that.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
OK now we are getting into the specific differences as to the way the 2 states (NC & RI) choose to modify and/or interpet the IRC2000 code:
>> matt.... the BI told me today.. i can use a ledger.. minimum of 2x2 fastened 12" OC with 20d spikes.... <<
We are required to place 3 10p nails under each joist (only). Not sure about driving 20p nails into a 2x2...
>> also... if you look at the deck section of the code.. the framing has to be designed for both shear and lateral resistance.... very hard to get.. especially on the outside band.. unless you are using a joist hanger <<
Our deck section is an appendix that is specific for (and I believe written by) NC.
1/1/2006 we adopt IRC2004 (?) we will see what happens then...
in reviewing that , i also noticed that in our old code... the design load for decks was 60 lb/sf
in the IRc... it's 40 lb/sf... but it's 60 lb. /sf for "balconeys"
couldn't figure out what the difference is between "balconeys " & " decks "
i know it's there someplace.. but it is really like looking for a needle in a haystack
usually i just ask the BI.. heck he's the guy i'm going to dance with anywayMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
From chapter 1 - definitions:
BALCONY, EXTERIOR. An exterior floor projecting from and supported by a structure without additional independent supports.
DECK. An exterior floor system supported on at least two opposing sides by an adjoining structure and/or posts, piers, or other independent supports.
Personally, I don't depend on BIs to tell me what the code is because you never know if what they tell you is the code, the local municipalities interpretation, or maybe even just the BI's opinion. On the other hand, I do make it a point to know what individual code enforcement jurisdictions want since I do have to pass inspections...
Ther have been at least a dozen threads on this subject - old hat by now - use the seaarch function for this one.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks. Just takes longer to hit the west coast :)
Thanks. Just takes longer to hit the west coast :)
Funny you would say that. I was following one of the threads on the subject here. So I asked at my local lumber yard (Stock - bought out the local Terry Lumber). They just looked at me funny and said What the Hay are you talking about?
So I said OK, let me rephrase the question: Is everyone who buys the new PT lumber using standard framing connectors? They said Yeah, of course.
So I'm like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Meanwhile, I don't hardly use the stuff at all anyway, but I'm waiting for the local crowd to get the word on this stuff. Is it because of the low moisture here in the low desert?
I gotta jump in here with a question.
(Okay, so it's a rhetorical question. Well, that's me all over, Heh, heh....)
What is this fascination people have about using joist hangers on a ledger?
Did anybody every stop to think why a ledger is called a LEDGEr...?
1. Forget the joist hangers.
2. Lag the ledger to the house so its top edge is at the level you want the bottom edge of the joists to be at.
3. Now sit the joists on that ledge you have just created. Toenail.
4. Cut solid blocking out of joist off-cuts and install it between joists above the ledger.
Dat's it. Sheesh. What's the mystery? Whaddya need a joist hanger for?
Oh, and BTW--forget the PT, too, new, old, or otherwise. There's an outfit calling itself Mother Nature which manufactures some stuff that won't rot and won't do this:
View Image
to a bolt in 6 months. One product is called cedar; another is called hemlock. There are others, too. Use any of them, design and build the deck correctly (so it drains well!), and you won't have any rot or corrosion problems.
Life can be so simple if you let it....
(PS: Justin--Don't take this rant personally; it's not aimed at you but at the friggin' 'engineered building materials' marketing horsecrap that has convinced a large segment of the construction industry that it was impossible to build anything before joist hangers and poisoned wood were invented. Sometimes I just gotta vent, LOL....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I'm wit ya 100% on the joist hanger/ledger thing. I don't use joist hangers unless entirely necessary. 2x2 ledger strips are fine with me. Unfortunately, locally our code officials are no longer letting us use 2x2 ledgers for flush beams on interior floor systems - you know, where you want a flat ceiling and would notch the joist for the 2x2 up against a girder running down the center of a ceiling.
Don't agree on the poisoned wood thing though, and I know your views on using rot resistant species of wood, but that is another rat hole we won't go down right now... :-)
Edited 9/5/2005 3:39 am ET by Matt
I feel pretty much the same way. There are times when deck hangers seem to make the most sense. It is hard to beat the carrying power of doing it the way our Northern Friend suggests. One issue I have with it and even many hanger applications is the resistance to pulling away ( or lack of) from the wall/ledger. You need to be creative (should be no problem for most here) to have more than joists/blocking toenailed .
If cedar and graded hemlock were available economically feasable down here they would be very high on the consideration list. That one I mentioned I was trying to rework is a very good example of the longevity and fastener friendliness of these species. The only fastener issues I see are the decking nails, and I believe it was only because they were probably not the best quality to start with.
Unfortunately, locally our code officials are no longer letting us use 2x2 ledgers for flush beams on interior floor systems - you know, where you want a flat ceiling and would notch the joist for the 2x2 up against a girder running down the center of a ceiling.
I will usually use a 2x4 or sometimes a 2x6 for a ledger. The primary holding power of the ledger comes from the lag screws or bolts being in sheer...but the friction of the ledger's face against the house wall (or beam) mustn't be ignored. A x4 or x6 ledger provides more surface contact area, hence more friction, hence more support. Plus if you're bolting it onto a beam, it actually stiffens the beam somewhat (more if you glue it, too).
Depending on the situation, I may even double up the ledger, thus providing 3" of bearing for the joists. This gives you the room to place 4 toenails in the joists (instead of 2), which doubles the sheer resisting pull-away if the configuration of the deck indicates that could be a problem.
Don't agree on the poisoned wood thing though, and I know your views on using rot resistant species of wood, but that is another rat hole we won't go down right now... :-)
Not to head down that rat hole too far, but I would like to emphasize that part of my objection to poisoned wood is based on the lack of need for it when proper design and construction are done. I believe that the first defense against rot is to design and build wood structures so that they will drain properly and not trap water in places that can't dry by evaporation. Thus the use of flashings, whether metal or bituminous felt, is primordial, as is their proper conception ('Think like a drop of water') and installation.
In other words, using PT to make sure the thing won't rot is not only dangerous to the health of the users of the structure, but is also the 'lazy man's' way to deal with potential rot. (Understand I'm not aiming that criticism against you or anyone in particular here; it's based on my experience doing remods where I wind up repairing damage caused by cheap and lazy work on a regular basis.)
Now, if a carpenter wishes to be conservative and use a 'suspenders and belt' approach, I would be the last guy to say anything against that (since I do it all the time myself). But naturally rot-resistant species abound in nature--and some of them last longer than PT!--so why don't we use them?
Answer: because the PT wood industry has spent millions on marketing their product to convince us the crap is necessary. And too many people in the materials-supply chain have fallen for this lie.
That's not, IMO, a very good reason to change the way we build stuff....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.