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I was really interested to read the article in the last “Fine Homebuilding” about a new way to build cabinets so that the doors and drawers appear to be flush inset, like the old-fashioned kind, by applying a kind of false front after building the cabinets with a subframe and installing the doors/drawers. I was wondering if the same method would work to convert existing partial overlay-type doors from stock cabinets into a flush-inset look. Would it cause the doors to bind up? Are there special hinges that would be needed for this? Bottom line is, I want old-fashioned looking cabinets for my kitchen but am not willing to pay the two arms and a leg that the high-end cabinet companies want for their products. This appears to be a reasonable alternative for someone who has limited wordworking experience… Any thoughts on this out there?
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Replies
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I don't see why not. I found the article interesting and
maybe this method is worth a try, at least where someone is
more concerned with speed and decent quality, rather than a
full custom kitchen with more elaborate and probably longer
lasting joinery (and the associated price). If you do it,
consider that you'll be moving your doors outward (unless
they just happen to be the right diameter and configuration)
and probably changing hinges, so you may end up filling
holes from the old hinges, if the new ones do not cover
them. I haven't spent any time thinking about your
question, just reacting off the top of my head, but again,
maybe it'll work real slick, just like in the article!
Good luck, Beth, let us know how it went.
Mad
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Sounds perfectly reasonable. Care for an even less expensive option?
I'm guessing with the partial overlay doors you have now you also have face frame cabinets? You'll probably need to rip the lip (rabbetted overlay) off the edges of your doors and drawer faces, making them slightly smaller, to get a flush edge. I'd guess 1/4" off of each edge, making them around 1/2 inch shorter and 1/2 inch narrower? Will they now fit nicely inside your existing face frames? Probably not.
Option 1: If the doors/drawers are slightly too small for your openings, you could rip them down more so they end up about 7/8ths" narrower and 7/8ths" shorter then your existing face frame opening. To make up for that gap, you can purchase a beading bit and mill the edge of a 1-by-whatever board with a 1/4 bead. Set your table saw fence for 3/8" and then rip the 1/4" beaded piece off the board. This will give you a 3/8ths" thick, 3/4" wide strip as long as the board you cut it from. You can now miter the ends at 45 degrees and glue/nail this beaded strip to the outside perimeter of your drawers/doors. The extra 1/8th inch beyond the 1/4" bead will give a nice shadow detail between the added bead and the door. This should now bring your doors/drawer faces back to a size that will fit inside the openings in your existing face frames, with a 1/16ths" gap all around. Reattach the drawer faces, hang the doors with simple butt hinges, and you should have inset face frame cabinets that don't alter the amount of overhang on your countertop. The added bead shouldn't result in an end/edge grain incompatability problem, as slab doors are usually a ply product, and inset panels are surrounded by stiles/rails. Should you not prefer the bead, you could rip simple strips and attach those instead. A contrasting wood may even look nice? Maybe not...
All that depends on the style you have, and if this beaded edge will look good with your current doors/drawers/face frame detailing. I much prefer the bead to be on the inside perimeter of the face frame, which leads to:
Option 2: You could attach the beaded or regular strip to the inside perimeter of your face frames. This would make the openings smaller. If you attach it to the inside edge of the existing face frame openings it will, however, mess up the flush edge between the floor of your cabinet and the face frame. You could get around that by chiseling the bottom face frame down 3/8ths of an inch. Realize if you do this you won't have to shorten your doors as much, only 1/2" instead of 7/8ths". The chiseling will be a bit of work. So, attaching to the doors/drawers may be the better option. Looks-wise, though?
Those are a couple of inexpensive ideas that may or may not work for you due to style or practical conderations. Tough to know without knowing what you cabinets look like.
Should neither of these work for whatever reason, do as you previously asked. Rip the doors down to whatever size required to get a flush edge, then add a new face frame over your existing face frame to give you the correctly sized openings. Add new butt hinges (or euro should you prefer) and you're in business. You will lose 3/4" off your countertop overhang, and any under-counter appliances (DW, etc) will have to be reset or they will be recessed back 3/4".
If I've muddled the issue (common for me), email me and I'll send a quick picture.
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Mongo is right as usual, Beth. You will lose the countertop overhang if you add face frames, and lose it in whatever the thickness of the face frame stock that is used. Not too many counters offer this forgiveness, though it is plausible. I like his ideas about the bead detail. If you do it that way, make sure you have a good glue joint to get a strong, solid door, especially if they get rough usage (i.e. kids)
Good Luck
*Thank you both for replying. I hadn't considered the problem of the counter overhang, but since I'll be making the countertops I can adjust the width on those to make up for it. My current cabinets are just 70's particle-board crap which will go in the dumpster once I get the new ones figured out. I'll have to go have a look at some of the Home Depot cabinet types and see if this technique will work with any of them. Course, then I have to deal with getting the finishes to match, too... maybe it would be easier just to build them from scratch.
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Hi Beth, If you were to apply a 3/4" face frame over your existing face frames you could put a hardwood drop edge on the front of your countertops. I have done this where Duroc and tile have been installed right over the existing plamThe drop edge usually ends up being 2-1/4". Whereas if the countertop is recieving new plam the edge is usually 1-1/2". Often times I apply the plam to the outside edge of the hardwood drop edge then with a 45 degree chamfering bit in my router, I chamfer the drop edge with the plam. Just another thought. MDM.
*If you are planning on buying new cabinets from home depot, buy the knockdowns with the slab laminate door.Save the doors for extra shelves.Install the boxes ,add a face frame and use inset doors with an inset euro hinge.Since you've only added a 3/4 inch face frame and are replacing the tops, this extra 3/4 inch won't ever be noticed.You could then have doors made. You could have the door company make your drawer fronts, if you are looking for something other than a flat panel for the drawers.The drawers that come with the knockdowns blow so you may want new ones, but you can use the slides and brackets.For doors, call Highland Wood Products, in Walton Creek, Ohio.I don't know the number but if you email me I could get it.I've also used doors from the Cabinet Factory, La Crosse Wisconsin, 800 237 1326, but I've never seen as nice a door as Highland.The doors come either finished or unfinished.The styles and details are endless.Also. the knock downs that are 24" and bigger have a 1 1/2 post in the middle, you wont need them. Don't forget to take into consideration the spacing between doors and the face frame, when you measure for the doors.Use pocket screw to make the face frame and forego all the exposed nail heads. The knockdown bases only have half depth shleves, but you can always add bigger ones.Some say why not just make new cabinets? Well many of us don't have panel saws, altendorf table saws, case clamps, etc in our garages.I could go on, am I rambling? Anyways Good Luck. Reinhard
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I guess I am confused Beth. I thought you were trying to
keep the cabinets you already have and make them what you
want. But now it seems like you're off to HD, and then
modify what you buy there?
Instead, why don't you just use what you have now, add
plywood faces to any interior particle board surfaces that
you don't like, modify your doors per Mongo or buy them per
Reinhard, install face frame as per FHB article, custom size
your countertop and Voila!
Sounds like you're making your own countertops? What of?
M
*This is getting interesting! Great ideas from you guys. The counter tops are actually old laboratory counters that are 24" wide, but I'll be putting in a tile backsplash so I can fudge the width there easy. (And yes, I know these countertops contain asbestos, and I'll be taking precautions if I do any cutting.) The only thing is that they are EXTREMELY heavy, so I'm a little concerned with using the knockdown boxes, if they are strong enough to withstand the weight. Also, the existing cabinets are falling apart (water damage) and are the wrong configuration for my remodeled design. I don't have a workshop and only the most basic tools (jigsaw, circular saw, drill, etc.) so that is why I'm trying to get away with doing a minimum of woodworking. It does look like a tablesaw might be in my future, though.
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The knock downs can take the weight, they are built like any standard case. You could add screws and glue during assembly,(melemine glue),for a stronger consruction than the knock down fixtures alone. You could add a solid rail (oak or poplar,etc.)across the top at the front and back.This would help to eliminate any sag from the fireslate tops. One other item, put the backsplashes on behind the tops, and the 3/4 is no longer a problem.( I assume they are at least 3/4 thick?)If you plan on doing the cutouts yourself, use a 4 in grinder with a tile blade( segmented diamond)and use a sponge and a helper to keep the cut wet.Be sure to radius inside corners or stress cracks will occur!
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Mong;
This is way off topic but, I know you have been known to hang out at the fine cooking forum so I have a question to pose to a well rounded man, Walnut shavings are toxic to horses, as most woodworkers know, would the smoke from walnut have any harmfull effects on a person who might smoke a rack of ribs on the old cooker with it? I get tired of the mesquite, hickory and pecan flavor.
brisketbean
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Brisketbean,
Any wood from a nut or fruit bearing tree can be used. Do NOT use any softwood. The resin in conifer wood (pine, fir, spruce, etc.) will ruin the meat and could make you sick. The main types used for barbecue are hickory, oak, mesquite, apple, pecan and cherry...grapevines are good for flavor too. I've seen walnut chips sold for smoking, so you should be safe. Here's a somewhat basic list of various woods that can be used for smoking. Not all-inclusive, just a sampler of some I've used. I've smoked lamb, poultry, pork, and beef. I never smoke fish. I grill fish frequently, I just don't prefer it smoked.
Alder has a light flavor that works well with fish and poultry. It is the traditional wood for smoking Salmon.
Almond give a nutty, sweet flavor that is good with all meats. Similar to Pecan.
Black Walnut has a heavy flavor that should probably be mixed with other wood because of the bitter taste it can impart.
Fruit, either apple or cherry, fruit wood gives off a sweet, mild flavor that is good with poultry or ham.
Grapevines make a lot of tart smoke. Gives a fruity but sometimes heavy flavor. Use it sparingly with poultry or lamb.
Hickory adds a strong flavor to meats, so be careful not to use to excessively. It’s good with beef and lamb.
Maple, like fruit wood gives a sweet flavor that is excellent with poultry and ham.
Mesquite has been very popular and is good for grilling, but since it burns hot and fast, it’s not recommended for long barbecues. Mesquite is probably the strongest flavored wood, hence it’s popularity with restaurant grills that cook meat for a very short time.
Oak is strong but not overpowering. A very good wood for beef or lamb. Oak is probably the most versatile of the hard woods.
Pecan burns cool and provides a delicate flavor. It’s a much subtler version of hickory.
Enjoy!
Mongo
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I was really interested to read the article in the last "Fine Homebuilding" about a new way to build cabinets so that the doors and drawers appear to be flush inset, like the old-fashioned kind, by applying a kind of false front after building the cabinets with a subframe and installing the doors/drawers. I was wondering if the same method would work to convert existing partial overlay-type doors from stock cabinets into a flush-inset look. Would it cause the doors to bind up? Are there special hinges that would be needed for this? Bottom line is, I want old-fashioned looking cabinets for my kitchen but am not willing to pay the two arms and a leg that the high-end cabinet companies want for their products. This appears to be a reasonable alternative for someone who has limited wordworking experience... Any thoughts on this out there?
i was trying to locate Highland Wood Products on the net; to no avail. Would greatly appreciate if you can pls forward to me either their url or ph.number.
thx a ton in advance,
poisk
Y'all need to look at the date stamps..the archives are archived for a reason. Like a twinkie, 20 year shelf life, and 2 left..somes of them posters may be like dead by now..or worse.
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