Nice 6-panel pine doors but ugly finish!
We specified 6-panel pine doors in our new home, with Minwax Golden Oak (a solvent-based) finish. The door finish came out “blotchy”, with dark and light spots throughout. Much of it looks grey in appearance.
I checked the manfacturer’s information, and they say that on porous woods such as pine, that their “pre-stain conditioner” must be used for good results.
The company that did the doors say that it is “not standard in the industry to apply a pre-stain”, and that, had we asked for it, they would have refused to finish the doors.
We asked them to take back the doors, and replace them with unfinished ones. They are brand newm and if this finish is “standard practice”, then the next customer will love them. They refused.
So, two questions: 1) What about this pre-stain conditioner, and the company’s claim that it’s not standard practice to use it?
2) How do we fix this mess?
Thanks!
Replies
a "pre-stain conditioner" is nice consumer-dumb word for sanding sealer. There is nothing more difficult to applying it than there is to any of the other finishing processes. All it does is block the rapid absorption of a stain into more dry, or porous sections of the wood surface. If you are stuck with the doors and want to remove the finish, a paint remover will get rid of the finish but the stain will need to be removed with something like tri-sodium phosphate.
TSP won't phase oilbased stain, not too much will with out making things a lot worse than they are.
I think the word is "faze".
still got the point across..thanks anyway
Well, Good news and bad news..Pine is notorious for "blotching" and "pre stain conditioner" does help SOME..but,it is not the do all, end all...about the company's policy of not taking them back...you may have to 'eat' the doors. If it was a cutom job for you, then they are yours , unless you can show them that it is totally unacceptable quality of finish.
If you have to keep said doors I would locate a local furniture/cabinet shop to use a process of sealing the doors then toning the final shade with a lacquer toner, it is best to let them do it rathere than doing it yourself.
If on the other hand you get new doors, either have them use said conditioner or get them raw and do it your self, that part is easy, then stain them then topcoat with what ever you choose ( for a DIY, I would recomend the MINWAX POLYCRYLIC and a paint pad NO BRUSH) .
The prestain stuff available now ia relativly new product ( at least for me, been doing this 20 odd years) and I have seen mixed results, in the good ol days we would use a thin coat of thinned shellac, which imparts a color very close to the golden oak that is sold by minwax..hope this helps a little..
Thanks for the info!
For the record, the doors are standard, and the finish is one they do on a regular basis. They're just practicing "customer dissatisfaction."
As for the finish, we've used the same Minwax solvent-based product on all the other doors and windows (two sets of pine 15-light french doors, an Andersen door and three triple-wide windows) with excellent results. We used the "pre-stain", and wiped on the stain. We had no blotching, and got excellent color match.
My concern now is what to do with these doors. Would the furniture-finishing route be as or more expensive then just replacing the doors? Or is there a practical way to remove this stain and re-stain these doors?
As I understand it, you're suggestion is to have the furniture-finishing folks apply color stain on top of what we have, and attempt to blend the color?
Thanks for your help!
Pine is well know for blotching. They sound like hacks.
Two commone ways of stopping this is to use a conditioner or to apply a thin coat of "finish" which is often a sanding sealer or thin coat of shellac.
You can try stripping and litte sanding.
But something else you might want to try, specially if you want the darker. And that is to use some geld stain. You can leave it on or wipe it off to control how much stays. And you can leave more in the ligther areas.
Or is there a practical way to remove this stain and re-stain these doors?
That's the hard part. Practical..The only way to REALLY remove the stain is to bleach it out and sand , sand , and sand. Not practical in my book...Try coaxing them into swapping out the doors ..threaten them with the BBB if needed, ask real nice, offer a comprimise..I guess I am wondering if you did all the other staining ..why did they do the doors? That is a recipe for problems, a finish schedule is something that ought to be written in stone and followed to the letter to have consistancy. If worse comes to worse maybe you could sell the doors to someone, or maybe dedcide that they are not that bad, and live with it. Or, start over with new.
I do not think it would be that awful expensive (compared to new doors) to have an experianced finisher color tone them..but I could be wrong..look in the ph. book under cabs/furniture refin. You may find some one with a magicwand..
As a last final resort, wipe the doors with plenty of lacquer thinner and clean rags..wet them heavily and mop them with rags, (try one door first..you already own it) dryer rags to try to pull up some stain and dilute what is there..let dry and use the conditioner (sealer) and re-stain..let us know how it works out.
Melissa,
Sphere has given you good advice as far as using shading and toning colorants to even things out and correct the problem. What wasn't mentioned (I don't think) is that whether or not this is truly feasible without stripping the doors first....is dependent upon just what is on the doors for the clear finish. If it's catalyzed lacquer or cat-varnish, overcoating is pretty much out of the question.
You need to find out what's on there. Whether it's cheaper to remedy the current situation or start all over will depend alot on that answer and the purchase price of new doors, as well as the cost of retro-fitting new doors to the existing jambs if yanking the existing jambs and installing from scratch is something you'd like to avoid.
Thanks for pointing that out..I was assuming just stain ..no clear on top..my bad. If they are FINISHED..best way to go is new doors..I think Joe said it too time is money and aggrevation..stripping a bunch of 6 panel doors? Nope. New ones might be better..color tone can be sprayed over the finish and a gel could also be applied, you must have barrier coats between dissimilar layers tho' that is why I recommend a pro shop do it not a HO.
If they are hung, and the jambs are done too, yikes.
Yes, I had not through of having a finish coat on them either.
But "bleach" won't have any affect.
There are 3 common bleachs used on wood, but none appropriate for this application.
Chorline beach will remove anilyne dies, but not pigmented stains.
There is oxalyic acid which is good for removing water stains an rust stains, specially on high tanin woods such as oak.
There is 2 part wood beach which is good for removing the natural color from wood.
Yer dead on about the bleach..only dilution will lighten it, and even then it is still there...if they are topcoated all bets are off. I once had 5 gal. of straight methylene-chloride..that would make most finishes jump off screamin..lol. Just can't get the good stuff anymore..once that minwax pigment is in the grain it is scrape city..and just imagine the end grain on the raised panels..arrgghhh.
Thank you all for the great information.
I didn't make it clear, however, that I do not believe there is any topcoat over the Minwax stain. The Minwax product info leads one to believe that it is stain and finish in one.
We did not specify a top coat, so I'm assuming there is none. Judging by the difficulty I recently had removing crayon marks that my little one put on one door, I believe there is none.
All of the doors are hung and framed. They are all standard sized, none is of any custom or unusual size, nor has any door been cut.
The company had claimed how they do hundreds of these doors per week, and "nobody has ever complained." I had replied that, if the finish is so popular, the company should simply take them back and provide us with unfinished doors. Since the doors were, at the time, brand new, there was no reason why they couldn't, but they refused.
It's interesting that they did a great job finishing all the Andersen windows in the house, as well as all the base, door, and window moldings. It's even more interesting that we were able to obtain a great finish on the doors that we did.
Someone had asked why some doors and windows were done by us, and others by the contractor. The doors and windows we did were installed after the house was built, and we stained them to match the contractor-supplied materials. We had purchased a few gallons of stain of the same lot from the contractor, to minimize color problems.
In the end, the only problems we had were from the doors they did, not the ones we did.
So, given that there's no topcoat, it's just the stain, and the dark areas, that need to be removed.
Edited 1/23/2004 11:06:23 AM ET by melissa
I hear the door truck comin in the driveway..
I hear the door truck comin in the driveway..
You're funny! But I hear the money truck just leaving... :(
Time is money, is your time worthless?
If you spend 6 hours on one door and it still looks like hell, or more likely worse than what you have now, what next?
Doors are a pain to sand, and even the price of the materials is something to consider.
Joe H
Hey, just thinkin..what sizes? which handed? and where are ya? I am resoring a log home and MAY be able to use them..EMAIL me if ya want to keep it off the thread...Duane
[email protected]
"The Minwax product info leads one to believe that it is stain
and finish in one."
That's funny, too.
This sort of "ambiguity" on product containers is there for a purpose. It's to mislead the consumer, having them believe that just one application "does it all". BS. Ain't no such critter in a stain product. Those who know no better are therefore more apt to buy said product with misleading info on product label.
As far as retrieval of your doors at this stage of the game.........these shading and toning colorants CAN be used to produce a surface color lighter than the underlying color. The problem with using them in this manner is that by the time the deed is accomplished, no wood grain is likely to show thru in those particular areas.
And so, my next question is ...where are the too dark areas/splothes? If they are on the frame pieces of the door or on the flats of the panels, sanding them out and restaining should be pretty easy to do.
However, I fear you're going to tell us that the dark areas are on the perimeter/raising of the panels. Those areas would be more difficult to sand because of the size of the normal power-sanding machine's pad. Sanding tools like Porter-Cable"s profile sander or Fein's Multi-Master with the standard triangular sanding pad mounted may well answer the call. That Fein pad would likely have to be cut-down to a somewhat smaller size that would allow you in there, but this shouldn't be too difficult to do.
(Yes, I know the PC profile sander isn't really a high-grade tool, but would be affordable for this HO and would serve well for occasional work in the future, too. Fein also has profile sanding attachments, but as all Fein products are.......it's expensive for anyone other than a tradesman who can put it to frequent use.)
There is a way Melissa, to take complete control of the color application on these doors and avoid all chances of blotching....but it must be done from the get-go with the raw wood....and it requires spray application. Seal the doors with dewaxed shellac (Zinnser's Seal Coat)and then shoot your colored finish on top using either a color product intended to be mixed with lacquer or a universal colorant which can be mixed with varnishes as well. Then top it all off with a coat or two of a compatable clear finish if you like. I'd advise it myself for protection of the color coats.
I sympathize with your situation. These "pro-finishers" sound more like pro-excusemakers to me. I particularly love that "no one else ever complained" line. It's the oldest in the book for trying to pass the buck to the customer. Tells me alot about the integrity of the person trying to hand it to me.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/23/2004 12:14:02 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Again you are right on target. Now, whose brilliant idea was the minwax..polyshades?...they should outlaw that stuff..more people have screwed up stuff with that product than any other finish I have seen. I was wondering to about the 'stain and finish' they mistakenly tout..BS. Just stained wood with minwax is ..just stained wood..period. There MAY be a slight amount of a long oil type resin, but at best one ppm..Maybe minwax is preying on the lazy..oh, look one coat does it all..wrong.
I think the Sealcote is one of if not the best thing in a finishers arsenal, even at 35.00 a gal. I have used it on almost everything that I have worked on in the last 4 yrs., before that it was called 'white shellac' I think. Another real good product was McClosky's sanding sealer. It was tuff enough for a top coat on shop jigs and my radial arm saw table. I don't know if they still make it.
Ten plus years ago I had the pleasure of working with Michael Dresdner @ Hydro-cote Supply when he and I were in Pa, man, what an education..the man is a genuine fount of paint chemistry and phenomenal wood finisher, when the going gets ruff for me in some of the crazy jobs I have tried to fix..that's the first call I make.."hey , Michael..how do I...." LOL.
Now, if I can get Melissa to sell me her doors cheap..????
Hmmm...first the doors were junk, then you all want to buy them?? :) Just kidding...
OK, here are the measurements:
Qty. 2 - 24x80 LH-reverse (inswing)
Qty. 3 - 24x80 RH-reverse (inswing)
Qty. 2 - 24x80 LH
Qty. 2 - 24x80 RH
Qty. 1 - 30x80 RH-reverse (inswing)
Qty. 2 - 30x80 LH
Qty. 4 - 30x80 RH
Total, 16 doors.
Note that two each of the 24x80 LH and RH are set up as sliding doors. They could be used that way, or re-bored for regular hardware if you don't care about the screw holes on the inside top when the slding door wheels are removed.
BTW! I figured handing this way: When standing outside a room or closet, if the hinges were on the right, I called it a right-hand door. If it swings toward me, I called it a right-hand reverse.
Is that right? Or do I need to start another thread on door handing!! LOL!
Oh, the doors are in MA.
What are they worth like this? If I decide to sell them, I think I'd want to take the hinges off them to make the installation of the new ones easier. The locksets could stay on or not, depending on the buyer's preference, I suppose.
I'm assuming that the buyer would either want to paint them, stain them a darker color, doesn't care about bltchy finish, or has a secret way of fixing them!
Edited 1/23/2004 3:24:13 PM ET by melissa
I come up with 16..and just for clarity..are you SURE they are not 2/4 vs. 24 and 3/0 vs. 36''...cuz I need 36'' and 2/8 doors..Mass. is bit far for Junk doors..(kidding, about junk,not MAss being too far)..do I hear a bid?..ten dollar, ten dollar, ooo 12 dollar , 12 dollar..
Well, I'm measuring the door itself, not the opening or frame...
Shucks, they are too small for me...back to plan "J" if that's what we are up to by now.
Put your backside to the buck (hinge) side of the jamb. Door swings to the right it's a RH and so on....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
what if yer below the equator?..don't hinges and toilets go the other way there?
Yup
Just keep that mind when all the blood rushes to yur head....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
LMAO...now who's gonna buy these doors..do I hear 15.00$...fifteen ..fifteen dollars..YES the man with the fishin pole ..over in Colorado..goin once..
Gone to the man going in lefter circles...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I think Duncan bid last..no? <G>
She is correct about handing, and would definitely need to use the "reverse" handing terminology when ordering hardware. Some lumber dealer and door shop people might not get it, however. I said "some."
If you would stand in a door opening called RHR, right hand reverse, you would have your butt to the hinges, and be calling the door a left hand, because that would be the direction of swing. If you order lever door hardware, with privacy function, your door will lock and unlock from the hallway, rather than from within the room. Not good.
In my experience in the exterior door business, handing was described as you say, put your back to the hinges, and the door is handed by which of your arms is on the swing side. We would assume "inswing" unless "outswing" was specified. We would say, "left hand outswing," and that would convert, in many door shops, to "right hand reverse." But not all.
I have become a convert to the use of the term "reverse," in describing handing, after many years of using the old "back to the hinge jamb" method. The window companies, selling glass doors, all use "reverse." Most importantly, all the hardware folks get it right when I use it. But regarding doors, I am careful to explain to whomever I deal with at order time, what it means, when ordering.
Ive always done it by standing facing the door where it opens toward you and whichever hand grabs the knob is the hand of the door. Ive only used reverse swing terminology on exterior doors that swing out. The lever sets i use have always been reversable. You are correct that it is always best to go over the way the door company determines the hand of a door with them and often i draw a sketch of how the door will open on the order form if it is a special order item.
Let's say you have a small powder room, too small for the door to swing into it.
Stand outside in the hall and the hinges are on your right. Reach out to the lever with your left hand to open and pull the door toward you.
Call it left hand by your way. I will call it right hand reverse, but by specifying RHR to the lever hardware guy when buying a privacy set, he'll give me the same exact code as he does for a LH bedroom door opening in.
If I ordered a right hand lever privacy set, forgetting the "R," the locking button (and exposed screw heads) will be on the hall side. Not what we want. We can lock you in the bathroom, and if you don't have a paper clip or awl, you won't be able to get out. Not what you want, either.
Hmm...3/0 x6/8 new with jambs at Lowes..88.00$...ebay them for 40.00 ea. picked up. you only lose 500.00$ or so..I think I'd live with the blotchiness..for that.
Oh yeah! Just gotta love them thar Minwax Polyshades. Grab a brush and make a bunch of unsightly colored streaks on your wood. There. You're done. See.......wasn't that easy? We don't need no stinking spray equipment or skill with it.
These doors sound to me like perfect candidates for a recoloring into the mahogany or walnut range. They aren't a loss...they just need to find the right home. That house you're workin' on would look mighty nice with some walnut colored doors. Real authentic like.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
One more thing......where are you buying Seal Coat at $35.00 a gallon?
I pay $24 here locally.
Might wanna check around.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
like I told melissa, they are too small..easy to salvage tho' for some one..Last sea lcote I had was down in NC, little local place, Lowes was an hour drive..I am sure it's cheaper here in Ky. Thriving metropolis of lexington..lol.
Maybe I just need to find somebody that needs a bunch of 24x80 shelves? With handles. And hinges.
:)
Personally I'd set up a picket in front of your door supplier..you know the sandwich board signs and all that...actually cut the door in half and wear it with your head sticking out...walk around in front of their place (or pay some nut like me to do it) and hollar "LOOK AT THIS STAIN " and "WOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN BUY THESE DOORS?"..of course you have to be naked "behind the door"..and remove the knobs so's ya don't get hung up on things..safty first.
Not sure how many doors and which hand but you mentioned that some are good, some are bad (not sure how bad). Since they are standard size and none of the doors were cut, perhapse you can swap a few around. Put the worst doors in areas that will not be seen. With a lot of luck, the worst side could end up on the inside of a closet. Just a thought, good luck.
Pine stains to a blotchy mess often.
I think it is unlikely that you are going to get any satisfaction from these people.
If they are will to feed you a line of BS like this, they either don't know what they are doing or don't care what you think.
Either way, for what those doors cost I think you'd be ahead to replace them and get what you want.
Time is money and by the time you spend 2 or 3 hours per door trying to make them right and still don't like them, you're just getting behinder & probably pisseder too.
Joe H
PS: Gotta admit I learned this about pine over 30 years ago on a whole bunch of shelving for a liquor store. Fortunately for me the owner decided since most of the time the shelves were covered with stock it didn't matter. He paid the bill as agreed and I learned something at his expense.
It is standard to apply prestain conditioner on any softwoods as they blotch easily. I would take them to small claims court if they do not make good. A wood finisher may be able to spray toner to elimanate the blotches. Try yellow pages or if that does not help , contact a cabinet shop. They should be able to refer to a wood finisher.
mike
All the comments about the blotchiness are correct, including the part about sanding sealer being standard practice, so I won't address that.
I am amazed that the contractor is not giving better service. If I do something and the HO doesn't like the result, we have a discussion to determine exactly what the problem is, and what they expect, then I fix it. If they asked for green paint on the walls and then want blue after they see the result, then the cost is on them, although we might cut a deal. If I got the wrong shade of green and it's my fault, then there's no discussion. In a situation like yours, where you simply selected the color and expected them to do a profesional job, then it's clearly their fault and they should fix the problem to your satisfaction...unless you declined their offer to seal the doors first, or in some other way gave instructions as to how they should apply the finish. If you feel that your are in the right, take them to small claims court, advise the BBB, and tell everyone you know about the poor customer service.
Couple of thoughts for a solution. 1- Would a painted finish look good in your house? 2- See if the contractor would take the doors back to sell to another customer who wants a painted finish, and maybe offer to pay 25% of the replacement cost, although that goes against my better judgement. 3- Replace the doors at your cost and put an ad in the paper.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I read the thread and there are a lot of good Ideas. But I think you'll need to use your resources to peddle a bunch of ugly doors. Not meant to insult, just the facts Mam. From what it sounds like you speced and they did a spray job.
I would take one of the doors and experiment on it with a gel stain to see if you could mellow out the splotch. Or perhaps see if one of the handy people in your area can get you a cure that you'd be happier with. You can call the sacrificial door your offering to the door gods.
Clay