Okay the decision to do solid Oak kitchen counters has been made–so comments about that are appreciated but probably won’t make a big difference.
The question is should I poly (it’ll be three or four coats when it’s all said and done) the whole counter top and bottom (top being the side you put stuff on, bottom being the side you never see), or should I build the top mount it and poly in place.
I read in another thread that the poly would warp the wood if you don’t do both sides, this makes sense to me but are the chances of that happening remote or certain.
I guess as I write this I’m thinking that I’ll mount the counter (12’6″) on some brackets and attach to saw horses on it’s end and do both sides at the same time.
However, any instiutional knowledge or pointers would be appreciated.
cje
Replies
Regardless of whether you apply equal amount of finish to both sides or not you will get moisture excahnge between the top and the ambiant and the top will move. Depending on the particular boards that you use (the cut of the grain) and how they are assembled it vary from a washbord affect to the whole thing cupping.
Because of that you need to restrain the movement of the top. That means screwing to cleats on the bottom (or using similar technics). You can attach tightly at the back of the top. But use sloted screw hole in the front to so allow for expansion and contraction of the top.
All finishing the bottom does is to slow donw the exchange of moisture, not stop it.
However, in a kitchen it will be exposed to bulk water, at least at the front edge. So I would apply 1 to 2 coats of poly to the bottom before installing.
I'm sure you grasp the idea that the narrower the boards, and the more vertical the grain, your likelihood of a good, long-lasting, flat counter are much higher.
Are you committed to red oak? White oak is somewhat denser than red, resists rot much better, and doesn't have the high propensity for turning black when wet that red oak does. I'll have to admit that I'm partial to the "red" of red oak, but a bit of stain could take care of that.
"I'm sure you grasp the idea that the narrower the boards, and the more vertical the grain, your likelihood of a good, long-lasting, flat counter are much higher."
Actally I hadn't thought of that. I'm planning on useing 2 1x8 and 2 1X6 to get the width I need--then trim down to size.
I'm hoping to only have to do four joints with biscuits--i guess I've been thinking that wider boards and fewer joints is better than narrower boards with more joints - by the way this is not the first jointed board I've made -- however my experience is not extensive. What is your take on the wider/fewer joints or narrower/more joints?
I will be using red oak because that's what they sell at HD and for all it's problems it's just so convienient for me--I live in Atlanta -midtown and that's the only place where I can find 13' lengths that I need. (I'll probably get razzed for that statement)
And I have no clue about lumber yards in town.
thanks for all the pointers - dare I say - so far.
cje
http://www.woodsmithtours.com/main/america.htmlbobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
At 2" plus, you're already using narrow stock ... that's to your benefit. Now go through and hand-pick your pieces for the best grain. The verticaler (don't try looking that word up) the better. In other words, avoid boards with loopy, swirly dark grain, and go for the ones that have the most uniform look of fine, straight lines. This will get you the most stable finished product.
Were it me, I would probably biscuit all the joints no more than about 16" apart. I would probably use a urethane glue (Gorilla Glue or Elmer's Pro Bond) to get a bombproof joint that is not susceptible to water (just in case). Urethane glue will also give you plenty of working time during glue-up.
After it's all assembled, bar clamp it all together, preferably with clamps on 2 sides, so you won't be gluing a cup into it. Squeeze the joints together and then stop. Excessive clamping pressure may cause it to protest by buckling. While it's curing, get out the yellow pages and find a cabinet mill with a wide belt sander, tell them what you have, and ask them to sand it for you. Worth a drive and some $$$, as it will come out beautifully.
You can take a sharp scraper or chisel and remove the excess glue (or pay the guy with the sander). I'd let it sit then and acclimate to its glued up condition for at least a few days before sanding. Be sure it's "stickered", that is, resting flat, but held off of the surface beow so air circulates all around.
When you fasten it down, picture that this top is going to grow and shrink across its width. You want to allow it to do that (or it could crack), while restraining it from curling up. If you check out a woodworker's catalog, you'll find harware made to hold down table tops in this way.
On our antique oak dining table, I refinished it with 4 coats of gloss polyurethane. Then I wet-sanded it by hand down to 400 grit. Then I rubbed it (with the grain, please) with 4/0 steel wool dipped in linseed oil and pumice. Then I gave it a coat of hard furniture wax, also with the steel wool. It's a beautiful finish, easy to maintain, and is extremely durable. It gets used 3x a day, plus it gets all the mail dumped on it, has taken years of my daughter's art projects, sewing, and homework, and still looks great. Your counter will take more abuse yet, and maybe you want to go another route with your finish, but I can vouch for the above.
Good luck!
CJ
6/4 material
rip to square cross sections
align each "lamination" so grain is closest to vertical.
glue up
sand flush
fill pores (sanding sealer)
many coats of varnish (light sanding between coats)
You do NOT want water to get to the wood
so put on a few more coats!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Find out about the hardwood suppliers in your area. White oak quarter sawn will be the most stable. Very high maintenance countertop. If you can use tile or stone around the the sink (2' out) it will lower your maintenance (nice around the stove too for hot pans". I would use a penetrating finish that can be repaired like linseed oil or tung oil. Poly is great until you damage the finish and have to strip it off. The marks (burns, dents, knife cuts) add to the patina but can also hide nasty bacteria. In the old butcher shops the chopping block was scraped down every day to new wood.
I'm not really sure who, if anyone in particular to respond to, and so I've chosen the "All" category......and so here is my offering for what it's worth......
High maintenance is oh so true with a poly-ed wood countertop unless one is fastidious about caring for it. While oil-based poly is an extremely durable finish and responds to clean up with dish detergent and a rag like a champ, the danger of slitting the finish in a kitchen counter is undeniable and nearly unavoidable. And while the eye appeal is undeniable, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems as though the fella has his mind made up.
I've made a number of these poly-ed wood kitchen countertops for clients over the years ….as they chose to dismiss the potential downside. Some of them have been up to the chore of caring for it, but most have not. If the sink area is included, the need for caution is increased by an exponential factor. All wood countertops look marvelous on day-one, but come back and have a look a year or two later. Think of it this way………would you use your poly-ed coffee table as a kitchen counter? That's exactly what you'd be doing.
Mineral oil finishes on hard-rock maple are IMO the easiest to care wood countertops over the long haul, but the eye-candy that many folks desire these days in high end homes just isn't the same.
Care would be the same as in the restaurants in which I worked in for a couple of years where these countertops took unrelenting use all the day long …………a daily dose of powdered bleach at the end of the day, scrubbed into the surface and then removed with a wet rag. No romance here, just plain old practicality coupled with a time proven durable wood for these types of application. The bleach doesn't really change the color of the maple much as it's already a pretty pale wood.
I'll borrow another's outstanding tag line for just a moment and hope I don't get smacked for it…….. Something on the order of …………….. Good judgment comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 11/14/2002 10:38:25 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
I'd recommend putting an equal number of coats on both sides prior to install as you're planning. And yes, it's certain to cup if you don't do this. To what degree depends upon a number of factors that become less relevant if you coat both sides equally.
As for the cleats or batons to assist in holding it flat………I'd slot all the holes for the screws, although you could leave the back or the front one un-slotted as Bill suggested. All the rest need to be slotted IMO to allow for unrestricted movement. I'd probably have about four or five screws equally spaced. The cleats need to be substantial enough to actual provide some restraining and not so light as to bend with the top if it gets a hankerin' to bow a bit. They needn't be huge like a 2x4 on edge but they do need to be adequate. I'd probably use a piece of oak 1 1/4" x 2 1/2" on edge spaced out about 36" to 40". These are rough guidelines. You'll need to plan this out according to your cabinet placement.
Didn't say if this includes a sink or not. If it does, make certain that the cut-out gets several coats as well. If you don't…you'll be kickin' yourself in the future.
Don't slit the finish with a knife, as it's the camel's nose under the tent. Water will enter and the finish will begin to fail over time.
Don't allow any iron bearing objects to sit directly on the countertop, such as cute little copper containers or tea tins or……..you get the idea. In conjunction with just a tad of moisture, they'll leave you a nice black calling card right through the finish and into the wood that you won't appreciate getting.
Forgot to say.......
If you place those cleats just right....so they live right next to the cabinet sides........you can use them to hold the countertop down as well by simply screwing thru them and into the cabinet.
Also.........I'd recommend no fewer than three coats of oil-based poly on your countertop.
We've had butcher block counters (except around the sink) for 20+ years. only used mineral oil on them
apples and oranges?bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
OK, your going to use wood on a wet, hot, humid area. Nothing we can do can change your mind. No one has used wood since they invented tile. Gota be a reason for that, huh?
OK, since we can't change your mind, I would be prepared to re-finish this countertop every year. You do understand that, right?
Its not that wood is impossible, it is just super, and I mean really super, high maintenance. It burns, it warps, it shrinks, it expands, it cracks, it checks, the finish will crystalize and crumble off.
Whatever your design, make it simple, because you are going to be either refinishing this thing annually or replacing sections.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Coat both sides equally, Have you thought about maybe using a 1/2" marine grade plywood under the counter then applingit with a water proof glue and machanical fasters. this would stablize the warping.
Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing!