I have a century-old Craftsman Style home in South Jersey on the Delaware River. I have owned the home for 5 years and have experienced everything from termite infestation to cracks in my steam heater core. Now its time to focus on the original 8-over-1 double-hung windows. I would rather put the time into repairing them than putting in vinyl replacements. Would anyone have a suggestion on repacement channel kits or weather sealing options? I try to stay as authentic as possible but on the available budget, I am trying to remain creative. Please share your thoughts.
Jim
Replies
there are several companies out there who specialize in this sort of thing, and you can find their ads in the back of the old house restoration magazines at your local news stand.
I remember seeing some that are vinyl tracks that you retrofit to your original windows, and also some companies who make the bronze stipping that you can use to the same effect, with the most original look.
Also you can look in the archives here, as there has been talk about sealing / tightening up old windows here in the past.
In my case, I was able to get enough improvement from removing each one (to install new sash cord) and re-installing each one (simultaneously breaks all the old paint free) and installing a high quality storm window.
For drafts, I found that sealing up my attic worked best (stop the flow of warm air out the top in order to reduce the intake of cold air thru the windows / seams) and did not need to add more flashing to my 100 year old double hungs.
By the way, glass is not a great insulator when its only 1/4" thick, so some 'drafts' you feel are really air convection currents in your interior air. These are best stopped with warm curtains, I think.
hope this helps.
We just bought some of those compartment shades at HD, made by Bali, which are like miniblinds except that they open up into 1" thick cells. They also make them where they open into a couple of 1/2" side by side cells, but much more expensive. I have been seriously impressed with how they have blocked the convective currents off the windows, especially then the "east wind" blows. They also are pretty good at absorbing noise, and the second one installed in under 8 minutes. The 35x72" was about $40-45.
Actually search on bali diamondcell cellular shade. You can buy stock shades in beige or white, and HD will cut to width, or you can custom order a whole bunch of different colors.
And as I told someone the other day, if I wanted new windows, I would have bought a new house.
If what you're looking for is replacement sash kits, sometimes called sash packs, etc - you get two new jamb sides, baiscal a vinyl strip with insulation behind, and new sashes. They're pretty reasonably priced and available from several mfgrs. Kolbe and Marvin are 2 that come to mind. I looked into a sash pack for a window here about 2'w x 4' h and it was only $175. Insulating glass too. Not bad compared to a whole new unit, and it didn't take quite an hour to strip out the old and put in the new on the first try. Pretty straightforward stuff.
Hi Jim,
I've installed a lot of reproduction sash -- something of a specialty, I guess -- and predominantly on craftsman homes no less!
I'm an ex- mechanical engineer, so have plenty of education on heat transfer, as well as a love for mechanical systems that work well.
In my opinion, there is no better system (for mechanical operation) than a counterweighted window. When properly installed, you can literally raise and lower the sash with one finger. This ease of operation is impossible with all the modern windows (which includes retro sash kits) because the modern mechanisms rely on friction to maintain sash position. In my opinion (again), it's just not satisfactory to spend $500+ on a new window and still have to get your back into it to raise or lower it.
So, obviously, I always recommend to my clients to stick with the traditional counterweighted system. If you're looking to increase thermal performance, the suggestion to use a storm window is a good one. The storm sash that I use, incidentally, is constructed in the exact same manner as the primary sash (1-3/8" thick, 2" wide stiles with either a ovolo or ogee profile, and 3" bottom rail), so it looks great. The thermal performance between bonafide double-insulated sash and a storm window system is fairly equivalent.
An approach that works well for a lot of do-it-yourselfers is to first get the storm sash up, and then address the operation and condition of the primary sash. That way (with the storm windows already up), you can just remove the primary sash and take your time working on them over a couple days without having to worry about boarding the window openings in the meantime.
If you want to further improve thermal performace, you can install some weatherstripping on your primary sash, too. I use a teflon "leaf" weatherstrip (WS)which is inserted into a 3/32" kerf around the sash perimeter. A leaf-type WS has a bit of springiness to it, so it will spring out to fill the gap between the edge of the sash and the window frame. Most importantly, it will do this while imparting virtually no lateral force to your window, so it doesn't weaken glue joints over time like a compression-type weatherstrip will.
If you decide to stick with the traditional system, I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you have. It's pretty straight forward, but there are a few tricks to making things easier.
Good luck!
Ragnar
What's that statistic......30% of leaks are window/door related.........
With that in mind.....I'd follow the already given advice and work on the other 70%.
I'm not a big believer that replacing as opposed to fine tuning original weighted double hungs really get's ya as far ahead on all the bills as the window manufacturers would have everyone believe.
Rebuild what you have....weather strip where you can......build some nice period typical storms with even more weather stripping........and make sure you attack the other 70% of the leaks...so the drafts aren't sucked thru the windows.
I'd be taking Ragnar up on his offer......and find the weather stripping article on the main page of this site.
Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........
.......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........
Ragnar,
I now have only single-pane primary and single-pane storms. I am not familiar with "high-quality" storms. I would certainly appreciate more info on the storms as well as your advice on "tweaking" the traditional units, thanks.
Thanks to all for your thoughts. Keep it coming...
Jim
Jim,
The storm sash I use are constructed just like the window sash. (1-3/8" thick, 2" wide stiles with either a ovolo or ogee profile, and 3" bottom rail) We use fir out here in the NW, since it holds up so much better (in our damp climate) than hemlock or pine. We rabbet the back sides and top to allow the exterior face of the storm sash to sit in the same plane as the window casings.
The storms are single-glazed. My favorite way of glazing is to use stops (set in glazing "caulk" and shot in place with 18d brads). This method allows you to paint almost immediately (glazing compound can take a long time to really harden up) and gives a classy, vintage look.
When fitting the storms, we leave a strong 1/16" gap at the top and sides, and 1/8" at the bottom. This is to allow some air circulation and avoid condensation issues. In case any water does find its way in, the gap at the bottom, especially, gives the water a way out. The side clearance is more for seasonal swelling.
The storm hardware consists of a pair of screen-type hangers at the top, and either a gate hook or ventilating hardware at the bottom to hold the storm in. "Ventilating hardware" consists of a pair of adjustable arms which allow you to swing the storm sash open at the bottom and let in some fresh air without having to take the storm sash off completely.
I'll see if I can figure out how to post a photo for you to see. I'm sure it will be easier to understand!
Ragnar
If you have a picture, you could email it directly if that is possible. [email protected] is my email.
Another dumb question about storms: What are "stops"? Bits of molding, I expect, but is there a profile that works best for securing the glass, appearance, etc?
FHB could use an article on storms, and maybe you could write it!
Javier,
Yes, "stops" in this context are just small moldings to keep the glass in. There are dozens of profiles that you could use, and is primarily a matter of personal choice. My local lumber yard has a couple that they refer to as "glass bead". You might also be able to get something suitable from a door manufacturer since they use stops on glass doors. (The stops provide much more holding power than glazing putty. This is important on doors since people tend to slam doors!)
Thanks for the compliment, by the way.
I'm still trying to get a chance to get some photos scanned. I can post a picture that includes glass stops, too, when I finally get to that point!
Ragnar
Here's a photo showing a plain-jane glass stop. The shadow line provides all the adornment.
Edited 11/10/2002 11:42:19 PM ET by ragnar
Interesting idea on the Teflon leaf WS. Can you suggest a source or a direction for me to look for the actual parts?
Thanks!
I get my teflon weatherstrip from a friend at a local mill shop. I'll see if I can find a manufacturer name for you.
Ragnar
Ignore all the retrofit advice your getting. You are getting advice from a bonafide expert on this topic. I have 14- 6 over 6, 7' tall double hung windows and the ONLY way to weatherstrip them is to get brass window guide/weather stripping from the Accurate Metel Weather Strip company in Mount Vernon, NY. As far as I know they do not have a Web site but you can call them at 800-536-6043 to get a free cataloge of their fine products. They will seal your windows up tight and last forever. You will thank me later if you go this route.
Is this similar to interlock weatherstripping?
You have to see it to understand it. It is formed brass sheet metal designed to be both guide and weatherstripping. You see nothing when the windows are closed. Trust me, anything vinyl will look crappy on an old house and eventually will crack and break. This company has been in business for over 100 years and makes a great product.
Catalog is on the way....
In either case, how long would you folks estimate per window?
I'll email you a picture of the storm windows and ventilating hardware. Are there any other pictures that would help?
As far as estimating time, I generally figure about three hours for rehabilitating a double hung window. That includes pulling upper and lower sash, sanding the paint edges off the sash and blind stop, and then reinstalling the sash, stops, and new sash cords (I use cotton cords by the way). I don't typically paint, so you'll have to figure some extra time into your estimate for that.
This may be a bit off topic, but there are a number of ways to replace the cords. If you're lucky, the builder spent the extra $0.25 back in 1910 to buy window frames with built-in access panels to the sash weights. If that's the case, all you have to do is unscrew them. Otherwise, there are three basic approaches that I know of: (1) Use a hole saw to gain access and plug the hole when you're done. (2) Remove the casings -- either interior or exterior in most cases. (3) Retrofit the window jamb so it DOES have an access panel.
I'm not a big fan of the hole saw technique, but I guess it works. You have to have enough experience to know how tall the counterweight will be for a given window, and then make a damn good estimate as to where to drill the hole (or end up drilling twice). Also, the hole isn't big enough to remove or insert a counterweight (sometimes the weight is just gone, or sometimes it's not heavy enough due to a previous reglazing with new, thicker, heavier glass). And in general, it's tough to do the work with needle nose pliers, etc.
Removing the casings is not so bad, but it'll make a little more painting work for you. A lot of the time, clients want me to replace the casings anyway, so if that's the case, the decision is easy.
I've made myself some jigs so that I can use a router to put in access panels in about a half hour or so.
If you're going to apply some weatherstripping, the teflon type I use takes about another half hour or so.
Regards,
Ragnar
I have not investigated about the access method for these units just yet although I am familiar with the options of which you speak. As to the request of additional pictures...a picture of the router jig and/or a drawing would be great.
What I would love to do is replicate wooden storms for my home. I think that it would be worth my time each season to R/R the panes and screens. Any thoughts there?
Thanks much,
Jim
There is a company that has replacement liners and balance systems. Don't know anything else about them.
http://www.windowrenu.com/main/default.asp
I'm going to confirm Ragnar's first post on this one. I've been slowly but surely restoring my 120 year old double hungs, starting with the removeable storm sashes.By doing the storms first, this allows me to remove the original DH sashes and work on them over the winter with minimal air infiltration.Another note about old-timey wooden storm sashes:
They work! I completely stripped and reglazed all 24 of my storm sashes and installed new hanger hardware and control arms and my level pay gas bill went DOWN from $151 a month to $60 a month in like a year. I didn't even bother installing weatherstripping on the storms.Restoring the DH sashes is going to be a real endeavor (I'm just starting on the first one and it's taken 4 hours just to strip all the paint), but after looking at and pricing the top-of-the-line custom sash replacement kits with SDL (Simulated divided lites) to match what I currently have (13 over 1 prarie-style) by Marvin, Weathershield, and Loewen, I can't understand why anyone would ever even consider this route. Even the best Marvins look junky compared to a good restoration job. I figure it's going to cost me $50 and 12 hours of my time to do each of my windows, but if the Marvins averaged $700 each, that makes my time worth over $50/hour. Not too bad, I suppose.I got a kick out of the look on the Marvin salesman's face when, after trying to convince me how much more energy his windows would save me, I told him I already cut my energy bill by 60% just installing 120 year old wood storm sashes. So truly, one cannot use the energy savings as a rationale for replacing windows.Old-fashioned DH windows were never designed to be the primary barrier to air infiltration. That's what the storm sashes were for. You would not believe how well they work. And you ought to hear the neighbors squeal in jealousy when I kick all of my storms out in the springtime using the retactable control arms. Very cool looking, very effective.After spending months researching all of the availble solutions to my windows, I've concluded that restoring the originals is far and away the best solution that I can afford, both money and timewise. While new windows MAY add more resale vaule than my pristine originals, For the $15,500 that I was quoted from all three mfrs, I can't believe they'd add $15,500 MORE.
How about posting a picture, I have a 100-yr old house and I'm getting ready to make storm windows. Have repaired or made new windows, now it's time for storm wwindows.
Ray
Mine take a long time because my windows are in terrible condition. I remove them, have them dipped at a furniture dipper, sand, fill holes, put in the grooves for the weather stripping, repaint and install. This takes a few weeks. If you are just going to remove them, mount the hardware and re-install, then just a few hours. Painting over the exposed wood that was revealed by putting the grooves in will be obviously take more time.
Hi,
I got the catalog from Accurate that you mentioned. I've seen this type of weatherstripping out here in Seattle before, and like you mentioned, it's been around for around 100 years! We refer to the general type as "interlock".
I agree with you that it's an excellent weatherstripping product. I'm aware of at least one WS company in my area that uses interlock exclusively.
However, as a contractor (and not exclusively a weatherstripper), I still prefer the teflon leaf (and/or silicon bulb) approach for three reasons:
First, the leaf WS allows me to put the sash in and out whenever I need to. The interlock approach requires the removal of nails to do this, and when you're trying to fine tune sash movement, the interlock can be a real nuisance!
Second, the interlock interferes with the counterweight scheme somewhat. More specifically, the knot that keeps the sash supported by the sash cord tension often gets hit by the edge of the interlock. Looking at old work, it seems like weatherstrippers often remove the knot entirely, and just nail the sash cord to the side of the sash. This is effective, but - again - it makes removing the sash much more difficult.
Third, interlock just seems to be a lot more tempermental. Now, I realize that my judgment is probably biased here, because I often work with sash and weatherstrip systems that are 75+ years old, and thus do not represent how they should be when they are brand new. However, my observation is that paint accumulation and an occasional bump can bend the metal weatherstripping out of alignment. And once it's out of alignment, the (untrained, unskilled) homeowner keeps forcing the sash until the weatherstripping gets permanently deformed and is nowhere near where it is supposed to be.
When I do weatherstripping, I always use teflon leaf types on the sides of the sash. At the top of the top sash, at the bottom of the bottom sash, and at the check rail, I've also used a silicon bulb, which seems to work equally well. All are inserted into a thin kerf and have a barbed shank.
This approach allows me to easily insert and remove the sash without pulling nails, and doesn't interfere with the sash cord knot (since the leaf is applied to the sash as opposed to the jamb, and thus there is no relative movement between the knot and the weatherstrip). Moreover, this approach doesn't require the same degree of alignment as the interlock type, and is therefore less vulnerable to homeowner abuse.
I respect your opinion on this subject. As a professional, I'm sure you've done hundreds of more weatherstrip installs than myself. Do you have any tips on avoiding the problems I've cited?
Regards,
Ragnar
One other note about your latest post. I've been told by professional strippers (paint strippers, not exotic dancers! <g> ) that hot dipping will act on the glue that holds the joints together on window and door sash. Therefore, they've recommended using topical application.
To add to the excellent advice you have already received -- if any of the sash are rotted in the corners, you might try to repair them with epoxy. I have had excellent results with this technique, using Gougeon Bros products. The liquid epoxy stabilizes the rotten fibers. Dings and holes can be filled with thickened epoxy. The process adds about a day to the repair cycle while you wait for the epoxy to cure.