First, thanks to everyone out there for the advice I’ve received over the last several months. Good stuff. Much appreciated
Now, for tonights discussion:
I live in the close-in suburbs of Washington DC. My neighborhood, as you might expect, is quite politically active, and is hell bent on saving every structure ever built prior to 1910. I have some problems with that on the surface, but we’ll let them be for now…..
The historical review board (self-appointed) volunteers carry little legal weight in my locally governed suburb, but a lot of “community gossip” weight – which can be very hurtful to those who disagree wiwth them.
There are three particular residences where virtually everyone agrees that they deserve to be restored. In each case, the properties sit on large tracts of land (in an area where lots of 10,000 s.f. (1/4 acre) are selling for $500,000 each). The owners are not fixing them up or offering them for sale. The common main street opinion is that the owners are eccentrics who are simply waiting for the City Council to loosen the zoning restrictions – at which point they will subdivide and cash in.
It has recently been suggested to me that there is another angle at play. It is theorized that the owners are intenionally foregoing any exterior maintenance in the hope that they can have the properties condemmed, at which point they can demolish and do as they wish.
Do those of you who follow or have experienced such isssues out there in your communities see this as a bonafide strategy?
Replies
It's what I might do if it was the only legal way to do what I want with my property.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Mc,
You probably live in one of the Villages of Chevy Chase. I grew up in Bethesda, and now live in a historic(not registered) home in GA. We have to go to a BHAR hearing to make any facade changes, excluding paint colors.
Any property in neglect is given a warning, then the city makes repairs and submits a bill to the owners, including grounds maintenance.
This is a good thing.
The properties you mention are probably investor or estate owned, or rental. I remember when you could buy a house on Brookeville Road for $125,000.
Chuck S
Do those of you who follow or have experienced such isssues out there in your communities see this as a bonafide strategy?
Old houses can stand a long long time before being called uninhabitable. Even then they can be forced to be rebuilt if at all. Historic review boards are about the best idea that can be so terribly screwed up by misguided members.
What is it you're looking for information on? Pimping a lot? Working around crazy requirments? Implementing crazy requirements to close loopholes? Something worse/better? Curiosity?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
At one point a while ago there was talk of a tree ordinance in our town--it would have required a permit to cut certain types and sizes of trees, and there were going to be guidelines that prevented some clearing and cutting. As soon as the ordinance idea got out there, a lot of nice, large, old trees suddenly got the axe. It was really stupid and shameful in my opinion, but a lot of people will do whatever they have to do to have their way and make a nickel, and don't care much about preserving historic buildings if it costs them anything to do so.
Have I seen this happen? Absolutely.
At least three in my old community on Long Island in NY had the same thing happen. And don't be surprised if somebody is going to break in to one or more of those places one night and vandalize it - followed by some lighter fluid and a match. Argument over. Get some photos, now, while you can.
I was President of a local Historical Society and owned an old building in town. I researched it and made it public. I even had it on my sign - circa 1900... When the time came that I was getting ready to sell, I asked the Historical Society if they wanted the structure which was is very usable shape. (I had a buyer for the land.) They had no money to do anything with it and no property to put it on. They were offered another old structure under the same conditions - same answer - "We can't afford it."
I love old buildings and have rebuilt them. I'm actually in the midst of writing a paper on one of the projects for that same society. Having been on both sides of the fence, I can personally say it's not fair to expect the owner to spend all of their own money to rebuild the structure for the neighborhood, or for the historians. if the owner wants to rebuild, or wants to accomodate, great. If not, then the government can exercise the power of eminent domain and pay fair market value for the property.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Down here in Mr. Jefferson's country, I briefly owned a hundred yr old house that country bureaucrats thought very important. Why? At 300 sq ft/floor (2 story), it was one of a very few extant.
Good reason for that. Other owners weren't stupid. My purchase was speculative. I considered the house to be a liability to the property and pulled a demolition permit before the property was registered "historic".
The only historic part evident from the outside was the crumbling brick foundation. Clearly, the ugliest house in the small village. Everything above the foundation was courtesy of a county program for low income homeowners, installed as cheaply as possible.
There was a nice building site uphill from the house, available within current zoning. Lot was half current regulation size, but we shoe-horned well and septic. The friend who subsequently bought it and hired me to build him a house allowed a community food bank to use the old house. Only 1 dwelling unit allowed on the property.
Worked out well for everyone. I profitted handsomely, my friend got a great house in a very nice location, and the county bureaucrats were able to preserve an old POS house. My friend's deal with the food bank is that he has no responsibility for the house, which they use for free. If they move out, he intends to let it fall down as my demolition permit has long since expired and a new one likely impossible.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It's called demolition by neglect.
Kowboy
I love old buildings... thats why I buy em... and I fixed em up... my dime... my time... and if it happens my profit....
what i don't love is someone who somehow thinks my buildings belong to "ALL" and that I should do as they wish with my building, dime & time.... for the good of "ALL"
if they love the stuff so much... let em buy it and left them be the gift giver...
I understand the historic value and the value to the area ect.... I have great respect for it... I'm inside it feel'n see'n the craftsman of 150yrs ago... touching things that haven't been touched in 150yrs... touch'n big beams that were standing timber when this area was just being explored......
but... i do it on my dime.... when someone wants to reach in my pocket and spend my money for me... that i have a problem with... maybe because i'm one of the few that works hard tries to do the right thing... does the best i can with what i have and I still have to face those that can't, won't or don't... but they want to tell me how i should....
just so you know... the fines for demo'n without the proper permits aren't that high...
Judge... that old house was full of bugs and it creeked and i swear it swayed in the wind... i knew someone would die when that thing just gave way... so i knocked her down before someone got killed... didn't know i needed a permit....
or... i tried to jack up that sag'n corner... next thing i knew.... dang.... well yeah i cut the ceiling joist so i could raise the ceiling height... i didn't know the whole thing would fall with me try'n to fix it up....
arson is a crime..... be'n stupid ain't.....
p
arson is a crime..... be'n stupid ain't.....
I like the way you think!
Doug
It's a waste of time to speculate or comment without knowing exactly WHAT local rules apply.
How can so many nosey nuts end up in one neighborhood?
Welcome to the
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Excellence is its own reward!
It also may be a strategy that the owners are anticipating sometimes avaliable historic structures funding.
We encountered this years ago in Blessing, TX. Matching funds were made avaliable for restoration of a histric and privately owned hotel / residence.
The Owner had to spend the money, submit financial record, make application and he would receive a 50% return.
where virtually everyone agrees that they deserve to be restored.
Everyone except the owners. You know, that whole property rights thing.
The historical review board (self-appointed) volunteers
Let them buy the properties if they are that concerned. Not for sale? Everything is for sale. For the right price.
D.C. -The place where spending others money is an art form.
We see situations similar to this all the time. Blocks of buildings owned by the same person, won't fix anything, always one step ahead of being threatened by the city with fines or forfeiture. They're usually waiting for a big payoff someday (i.e., large city reclamation project or gentrification) so they sit on neglected property and pay the taxes on it each year.
It varies by locale, but it's a difficult situation to enforce. Here, unless there's drugs or prostitution happening on the premises, there's very little anyone can do to force the owner's hand.
I don't know about the alternate angle (waiting until a building will be condemned). We work with various historic commissions all the time, and they're wise to that trick. Plus, our city powers don't like to override the commissions (it makes them appear to be against the neighborhoods). If a commission insists a building can be renovated, the owner would have to wait an awful long time/go through a lot of hoops before the city would step in to resolve it.
I should think waiting for condemnation is the hard way to go if you truly want to buck the system.
In my community a couple years ago an owner renovating a house in an historical district was dancing with the local historical group who did in fact have legal standing.
As I recall, at one point a sizable portion of the house was "mistakenly" demolished in direct contradiction of submitted plans. Of course, now the original plans could not be salvaged without a rebuild of the demo'd section.
After much name calling, wrangling, delaying, and blaming the demo contractor, the owner got to do what they obviously always intended. The city didn't have the stones to make them restore it to original condition.
The house now looks nothing like it did and is hardly historical. Nice mistake.
Who knows what the owners are thinking.
Has anyone actually just tried talking to them?
mcguire,
I just recently finished my 9 year fight with my city over this very matter! Actually it's more like a 21 year fight, but that's another matter!
38 trips to city council, planning commision etc. etc. Well over a thousand hours of my time spent..Plus prep time and etc..
I got everything I wanted, all 114 sq. ft. of it.. The city used every single tactic in their handbag. lawyers, law suits, threats, intimidation, cajoling ,argueing, lying, Red tagging, etc.etc. etc.
At one time I ran for Mayor (came in second) in an attempt to change the stupid rules to something more practical.
Neighbors on either side had bigger houses. but mine broke the rules so I couldn't (we all did because we are all existing nonconforming structures). The rules don't fit anybody so they can pretty much do as they please..
Everybody needs a variance but the requirements for a variance are that it must be a demonstratable hardship.. Then if you do manage to demonstrate and document the hardship they will apply another section at you..
Oh and the rules aren't available. You can't buy a copy of the rules. They enforce rules based on whim and not on any standard..
Just a note to let you know what you are up against.. Don't lose your cool, don't get angery, be calm, be nice, smile a lot..