Can anyone give me some insight on the best way to finish (paint) over oak doors, jambs and base molding. The wood is all oak as previously mentioned, and has a coat of stain but does not have any type of urethane or varnish. All will be painted white with a semi gloss finish. I would like to know the best type of primer to use and also the best finish paint. should this be an oil base or will latex do? I would imagine that it would require a primer and two finish coats, does this seem right or do you think I could achieve a two coat finish? Also I have a ton of nail holes to fill. Is there a type of fill I could use that would fill in one pass as opposed to all these ones that shrink and need repeated fills? Thanks
Mick
Replies
I build a lot of paint-grade things in oak, especially ballasters and items that get a lot of wear and tear.
You'll want to decide up front if you want the grain to show through or not. It's not something you can just let be what it wants to be, or you'll have pronounced grain on parts of the trim and around nail holes and caulked edges it will be smooth and look like crapola.
If you want it grainy, filling nail holes requires exact amounts of filler to be used only in the nail head or a smooth dot will appear in the final finish. Very time consuming.
On the other hand if you want the oak to be smooth with no grain, I like the grain filler sold for filling hardwood floors, or even a skim of spackle. The spackle is easier to sand and is our painter's preference.
I prime with a fast drying alcohol based primer like Kilz, although it probably doesn't make all that much of a difference as long as it is compatible with the finish coat.
For trim an acrylic enamel is often the best water based paint. Go with a good brand and it's hard to go wrong. Spraying will produce better results and will highlight any grain, if you went the grainy route.
Once you're done remember I warned you about the grain. Even a lot of painters I warn on our oak paint-grade work don't think the grain will show as much as it does and they get to repaint for free. Or they'll fill nail holes and have a dime size smooth spot on an otherwise uniform grained finish.
To keep the grain, it's best to shoot nails through a piece of tape, fill and remove the tape.
Personally, I love the look of grain through the paint on everything but some contemporary items.
Good luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 2/19/2007 12:39 am ET by IdahoDon
Don,
Do you mean the grain shows through or the grain is raised where you feel it to the touch? Both?
Mick
Do you mean the grain shows through or the grain is raised where you feel it to the touch? Both?
The grain won't be bad enough to feel through the paint, but it will be very easy to see. It's so easy to see that the areas without grain stand out like a sore thumb.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Don,Your tip: "To keep the grain, it's best to shoot nails through a piece of tape, fill and remove the tape." Worth a whole night on Breaktime to read a tip like that. So simple, but I'd never even thought of it. Thanks.Bill
Your tip: "To keep the grain, it's best to shoot nails through a piece of tape, fill and remove the tape."
Worth a whole night on Breaktime to read a tip like that. So simple, but I'd never even thought of it. Thanks.
Thanks Bill, but credit for that idea has to go to an article or quick tip in a magazine, the specifics of which I can't remember.
Good building.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Ditto.
Mick
You'll probably get a lot of crap on here for painting oak but I personally think its a good idea!
What the second poster said, the oak is going to show through, or a least the grain will.
Doug
what about hitting it with grain filler or letting George's GF near it???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Fill the grain with george's girlfriend!
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best idea I've heard of in a long time....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Seal with thinned shellac ( clear seal coat 2 parts shellac/3 parts alcohol). Flood it on with natural bristle brush, paint with two coats oil or latex after about an hour.
Troy Sprout
Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it."
-- Thomas Sowell
thanks for replies. it was recommended to me that I could use a good oil base primer such as a benjamin moore brand first coat or fresh start i can't remember exactly, and then finish with two coats Benjamin moore Aqua glo latex. This was from paint store guy, but I wasn't to sold on his advice, only because he didn't seem to sure of himself. does this seem OK?
Mick
Did the paint store guy know it had been stained?stain will bleed thru most primers. Best way to seal it in is to use a shellac or a shellac based sprimer like the Kilz.That is one problem.The other problem is that Oak has an open grain. Little holes in it. You probably have red oak which is worse in that regard than white oak. You can actually blow bubbles sometime using red oak like a straw in water. So that grain needs to be filled to get an even paint job.That same grain is what makes oak so beautiful when stained and oiled nicely. It is also the reason many of us think it is a sin to paint it. On one job I had, the owners had a very nice oak table. The interior designers told me to have it painted balck. I raised cane and made sure the owners knew what was what first. They left the decision to the int designers. so I had my painter estimate the cost. He figured it for filling the grain. The designers said no, we've got a decorative painter who can do it cheaper. We're talking gloss black paint keep in mind here -
Their guy just slopped paint on without even ssanding the original oil finish first... It was more or les OK on the top, but sags and drips all down the legs and nothing on the bottom. The grain all showed through becuase of no filler and that was the first thing the owners noticed - and complained about. I ws glad I'd had nothing to do with it. They bought a big overcoat - I mean table clothe - for it.Sinful, I tell yah, just plain sinful.
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So is Kilz the way you would go Piffin? Is Kilz that real strong smelling stuff? Would I need to use a respirator when using Kilz? Also would the aquaglo be a good finish over the Kilz? If I remember correctly I think I used the stuff once and I remember it being very watery, very thin as opposed to "regular paint. Am I correct on this?
Mick
Kilz is a brand name. It comes in different formulations. The "original" Kilz is oil-based and should work well as a stain blocker.
Rather than use the Benjamin Moore Aquaglo (which is a fine product), I would use their Satin Impervo. It comes in water-based and oil-based. The water-based is 100% acrylic and has better adhesion than the Aquaglo. You can use either oil-based or water-based, but the water-based is easier to work with.
And no, I don't think you need a respirator (unless you have some specific medical condition), but you may want to provide some additional ventilation.
Don, I think the original Kilz is alcohol based, and it really does smell badly."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
OK BIN then
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I, personally, think it smells great - woo woo!
(Nice clean alcohol smell which dissipates quickly...)
strong smell is from alchohol for shellac or the sealer. respirator if you are pregnant
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So I should look for a oil based Kilz, not the alcohol based one? Am I understanding this right? Is there a cetain name for the oil based Kilz?
Mick
Yes, use the oil-based primer, not the alchohol-based. The alchohol-based primers (such as Zinsser B-I-N) are intended more as stain blockers. They are very thin and hard to work with. They're also not very flexible and may not bond well over large areas in the long-term (actually, they bond well, but the risk is "crazing"). You're not really trying to block stains, but you do need to use an oil primer because the stain used on the wood (which isn't really the kind of stain that B-I-N is meant for) will bleed through latex primers.
You will probably need 3 coats, but start with 2 (primer and top coat) and see how it looks. Like others have said, oak can look odd painted because the grain shows through so readily. Some like the look and some don't. You might want to paint some scrap oak just to make sure you'll be ok with the final look.
I still think that Kilz Original is oil-based, but check it out because FastEddie usually gives pretty good advice and he thinks it may be alchohol-based.
It doesn't have to be Kilz brand. I usually use Zinsser oil primer. This one is a good choice: http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=78
-Don
Don & Paul ... I was making a comment based on my memory, wasn't trying to correct an error. I think the important point is to the OP, that there are several different types of stain blockers and primers, sold under the same brand like Kilz, and he needs to read the label and select the right one."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Thanks for link Don. I think I will give that Zinsser a shot. As far as filling the nail holes go, I'm just not sure the best way to go about this now that I realize the whole deal with the grain showing through and all. The red oak floor putty I have used before and found it very hard to sand out, maybe that was just me. But with the profile of the trim I'm worried I wouldn't be able to get into some of those tight spots. would it work to just use like a light weight spackle and fill it high and then sand it down flush, which would sand down much easier than a wood putty? Also would it be better as far as letting the grain show through?
Mick
I wouldn't use spackle (lightweight or regular) to smooth the grain. It's ok for nail holes, but I don't think it has good enough adhesion for flat surfaces. But if I were going to give it a try, I would prime first because the spackle should adhere better to the primer than whatever wood stain is there now.
My first choice to hide the grain texture would be latex wood fill. It's easier to sand than wood putty and it can be thinned with a little water to make application even easier.
It's a personal preference, but I don't care for wood trim. Especially when it's stained dark as seems to be so common. Then there's the nail holes that are almost never filled/stained properly. In order to look right, wood trim needs to be installed more as if it were cabinetry than just trim. Done right, it's a LOT more work than painted trim. Done wrong, it looks cheap.
I dislike typical wood trim enough that I would paint it and be perfectly willing to accept the texture showing through. An extra coat of primer or paint would be good enough for me. Only you can know if you'll be happy with the results. A lot depends of lighting, how much and the angle. Experiment a bit.
-Don
Hey Don,
I didn't mean I wanted to use the spackle to try to smooth out the grain, I was talking about just filling nail holes. It was mentioned previously that when puttying in this situation it can cover some grain and make the putty spots stand out like a sore thumb. So what I was trying to ask was, would it be a better idea to use the spackle as opossed to wood putty being that "I would think" the spackle would remove easier and let the grain show through better. Theres a lot of nails to putty on the trim so I rather not see a dime sized spot around every hole if you know what I mean. Also, any special technique for the putty process that might help? Maybe like wiping the trim right after application of the putty or something?
Mick
Now I see what you want to do, but I have no experience with that.
I've done what you're talking about and spackle works fine, although it shrinks a bit.
Instead of overfilling the holes with a finger, and filling the wood pores around the hole in the process, buy a pastry bag for cake decorating and a #3 or #4 round tip and you can squirt a little in each hole.
If the spackle goes places you don't want, it can be scrubbed out of the pores of the wood with a small plastic or brass bristled brush.
A lot has been made of what primer to use and I don't think it makes all that much difference as long as it's compatible with the top coat. A primer that's hard to apply just doesn't make sense. It may be oak, but it's just like any other interior wood so we don't have to go overboard here.
In all the years I've been a finish carp I cannot think of one situation where new painted oak had primer related problems. Never even heard of it, read it, or know of anyone who has. Zip. Zilch. Nadda.
I use a fast drying primer like Kilz because it's quick to apply with brush without leaving thick brush strokes and the top coat can be applied lickitysplit. When sprayed it doesn't have a high build so the grain shows through a bit better. Use the bare wood primer of your choice and you can't go wrong.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I've been thinking aout a take off on your earlier suggestion of using a piece of tape, shooting nail through it, spackling, and then pulling the tape off.
You could make up a slip of coil stock with a 1/8" hole drilled in it, hold it in place with hole aligned over the nail hole, drive a dab of spackle in with other hand and then pull the metal gaurd off, leaving the surronding space clean of spackle. Sand later.
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You could make up a slip of coil stock with a 1/8" hole drilled in it, hold it in place with hole aligned over the nail hole, drive a dab of spackle in with other hand and then pull the metal gaurd off, leaving the surronding space clean of spackle. Sand later.
Great idea! Maybe even a small piece of clear plastic so it's easier to line up the hole with the other hole. Pardon the expression.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
It's not bare wood Don, It is stained. No urethane or varnish though.
It's not bare wood Don, It is stained. No urethane or varnish though.
My mistake!
In that case I'd use a primer that really has teeth. Something like...well...hmm.....
Something just like Kilz. The Kilz 2 latex is my favorite, although earlier I reffered to it simply as Kilz. To be quite honest I have no experience with the original kilz, only the Kilz 2.
View Image
How good is it? After borrowing my personal plastic paint bucket for a touch up, one of our more experienced paint subs had to ask what the paint residue was stuck to areas inside the bucket. It sticks so well that it really has to be scrubbed with a metal bristle cleaning brush and still some will stay put--on plastic.
It's not flashy. The stuff is sold at lowely places like Home Depot and Walmart. It's not especially expensive. With a little water added it's like brushing on whole milk. How boring. However, paint it on your stained oak, wait an hour and just try to scrub it off with a wire brush. To me, that's what good primer is all about.
Good priming to all!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm sure that Kilz 2 latex adheres well, but since there's no finish, the wood stain may bleed through, much like natural wood tannins. That is why I recommended an oil-based primer. The following is straight from the Kilz website:
KILZ 2 Latex primer or KILZ Premium primer can be used on light water stains, but KILZ Original primer or KILZ Odorless primer should be used on medium/heavy stains to acheive maximum stain blocking. When in doubt, use KILZ Original primer or KILZ Odorless primer.
Since the latex is so much easier to work with, it's definitely worth it to buy a small quantity and see how it works out. At least that's what I would do if it my own house. If it were for a customer, I don't have time to experiment and I would start with an oil primer.
- Don (another one)
With a name like Don you must be trustworthy.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to prime a client's trim with the Kilz2. It's been the stainblocking primer of choice for the past 4 years and have yet to have any bleed through even on cedar. The manufacturer does recommend two coats on heavy stains.
The stuff is awfully hard on brushes though since it dries so fast. It has to be cleaned off regularly or it clings to paint bristles and can't hardly be scrubbed off with a brush cleaner. I never sit the brush down for even a few minutes, but rather toss it in a bucket of water and spin out a clean brush when ready to paint.
Good priming!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks, Don. I'll be sure to give it a try.
In a recent FWW it was suggested to shoot nails through masking tape to avoid this problem of over filling with its resultant glassy spots.
Seems like doing it after the fact might work, just place a piece of masking tape with hole over the nail hole then fill and sand.
You can actually blow bubbles sometime using red oak like a straw in water.
White oak was used to make water barrels because it does not have the open pores. And that's one way to remember which oak has the open pores: W for water and white.
The black painted table ... why didn't someone insist that the painter go back and finish it right?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
It was one of those things where the IDs were working for the wife and I was working for the husband, and he had to sleep with her at night, but I didn't so when the IDs pulled the wool over her eyes, he closed his.By time it was all said and done, I was glad to have gotten paid and walked away with my money. The IDs had added a lot of cost, but I had documentation on everything.
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It's worse than sinful, it's stupid. They coulda sold the oak table to somebody who likes oak, and bought something the designers prefer from IKEA. And pocket the difference.
-- J.S.
Ask DougU! He hates oak. <G>
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
What if I just prime first before puttying any holes? Would this seal up the pores enough?
We always prime first before fill and caulk
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We always prime first before fill and caulk
Does this solve the problem of the putty leaving unsightly spots?
no, it makes it easier to see the holes, and provides some better bonding.
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Hey, I like it for burning!
Me, too, but our oaks are pretty little. Not at all like a "real" oak tree.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Last winter I built a row of built-in bookcases using oak plywood from Lowes. After priming with Kilz or Zinsser (can’t remember which) alcohol-based white primer, I painted with two coats of Behr white latex, the Home Depot standard. It was a disaster! Within a couple of days, the color went from white to ugly pale yellow. The non-oak plywood backs on the cabinets were ok—only the oak plywood was affected. I assumed it was tannin in the oak burning through. I had to re-prime the cabinets with oil-based Zinsser and repaint, this time with a good oil based white.