Gave estimate to prospective customer, including license #, certificate of insurance (which is what is needed in Mass to pull permit), and she went to Bldg Insp. office to pull permit on her own, gave all my info as GC and was issued building permit.
I’m going to find out Monday if she signed my name.
She then hired someone else to do job without changing or removing my name from file or permit in Building Department.
She never signed my contract, I did no work and was paid nothing.
Do I have any way to legally spank her? This ever happen to anyone?
When she sells home, should future owner injure themselves, or have a code defect complaint, I may get a knock on my door. That’s about the worst possible exposure I see.
All kinds of laws in Mass to protect consumer from bad contractors acitivites, what about misbehaving consumers?
Replies
wait till she finish with the job then demand payment, what she going do, take you to court
I doubt there's much you can do that's worth doing. I would certainly go to the permit center and ask to see the permit file, it should be public record. See if 'your' signature is on there, and if so, talk to the district attorney's about the fact that your sig was forged and your information used fraudulently. If you can do this successfully it's possible that you can have the permit revoked or cancelled, and then she would have to get a new one to cover the work. It's probably mostly a nuisance. The chances of it ever coming back on you are .001 or something like that.
There is definitely a lesson in here somewhere. Never leave a contract for someone to sign. If she still has a copy of it with your signature on it she could sign it and then say it's valid. And never give anyone your insurance stuff before a contract is signed. You can show them a copy of the certificate, but it ain't theirs until they sign.
My signature was not on my contract.
Insurance certs are produced directly from Ins Co. and mailed directly to Homeowner. I've toyed with the 'I'll show you I'm insured after you sign' concept, but it so far has not hurt me to make the call for cert to be mailed.
At minimum she will be filling out new permit with who did work on it. I know who did the work. I have suspicions on his license/insurance status.
Tell her that as GC, you are expecting to receive a 15% management fee on all invoices.
ink... go talk to the building inspector... i've taken over jobs and he required a letter from the home owner releasing the permit to me.. ( Rhode Island )
but .... there is also fraud in your case... you may want to talk to a lawyer.. i would definitely ask the BI to stop the job and rescind the permit..
your license is on the line ( CS , right ? )
Mike,
Job is done. I agree on fraud, I don't think I'm going to ask for money. Will find out tomorrow if she signed my name.
I admire the way you seem to be handling this and your self. I know it would have my dander up!
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Piff,
What gets me is this.
I need insurance, by law.
I need a license, by law. HIC and GC for the work I do.
I have to have contracts that say blah blah blah.
I have to abide by all codes.
I have to abide by laws if Mass HIC Program.
I pay money into Guaranty fund.
The customer is very protected from my actions.
When customer does something like this without even the courtesy of a return phone call to me......all sorts of thoughts go through my head, believe me I am showing extreme restraint.
I don't want to do anything that will make me look bad either. I eat here too. I live in same town.
If I were younger, no telling what I would have done. She lives on the edge of woods and recent work is accessible to prybars, sledgehammers, chainsaws, even a length of chain on an ATV.......but we won't go there.........
Can you say ..............................."Un-work party!"-Fest! ;-)"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
Went back to her house on a drive by and I think there's an issue with spacing of footings.
She needs more and I'm going to ask building inspector if he inspected depth. Footings are usually inspected around here to assure depth below frost line.
According to the sheet in bldg insp ofc I saw no dates of inspection at all......which is another issue since project os complete and painted.
Hmmmmm...
You've got more than simple fraud at work here. Courts aren't too kind on identity theft these days...
ink.. when i get back to the office i have to call a state police detective about a job we took over..
they've arrested the previous contractor for insurance fraud and are expanding the charges to include taking out the building permit in a false name..
course , he might not be in , it being VJ Day and all ( a RI holiday ... the only state that still celebrates it )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Some people need to have it taught to them that fraaud - theft by deception - is still theft, puttiong her in the same catagory as dopers who steal parts off cars to get what they want. possibly even lower, because the car is insured, while what she steals from you is not covered by any insurance policy, it comes derictly out of your pocket. I like what SGH said, I would do it all through an attorney and have him/her aggressivly pursue making me whole if there is decnt chance of winnning. This is your reputation being placed at risk here. At the least, you make it public in a legal way, what sort of person this woman is
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possibly even lower, because the car is insured, while what she steals from you is not covered by any insurance policy, it comes derictly out of your pocket
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't agree that it's worse simply because one is insured & one is not. Insurance is not something that is free. It's not a bucket of money generated out of nowhere.
That mindset is part of why insurance of all kinds costs so much. People figure "O such & such isn't hurting anyone, the insurance company will pay for it"
Johnny
That mindset is part of why insurance of all kinds costs so much. People figure "O such & such isn't hurting anyone, the insurance company will pay for it"
I think your misinterpreting what Piffin is saying, maybe more accurately, your reading some extra into it.
I don't know Piff personally but I doubt that he'd advocate either misdoings!
I think he's probably suggesting that on behalf of the original poster(don't even remember who started this thread) that because of the insurance on the car that money would not be directly removed from him pocket.
Doug
What I actualy had in mind was the mindset of the thief HO vs the thief burlar as a conparison. While said HOP probably thinks she is doing no harm to anyone, she is doing more DIRECT harm to an individual, while the carjjacker is hitting an insurance co that spreadas it over all of us minutely. He was right to point out that the thinking that the insurance covering it sidestepps some responsibilities. I don't think he was suggesting that I had devious motives.
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I don't think he was suggesting that I had devious motives.
You are correct. I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. I was simply clarifying.
True
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Many a year ago I was in a similar situation, my brothers company [Plumbing} was not getting the draw for rough-in, watching the job we seen another contractor working the job. At that time you had to have the original permit rescinded to get another contractor on the job. We entered the site and proceeded to remove defective plumbing [With a sledge hammer], since the permit was in my brothers name we had the right to be on the site.[God that felt good]. Rip-off SOB's should have a pay-back!. I'm not saying to do this, but that was the way it was. "live long and prosper".
I agree with Mike. Make a call to the building department and also to the police. File a police report. That step will pretty much guarantee that nothing will ever come back to haunt you.
She committed fraud and is subject to the laws governing that in your state.
I would be careful about asking for 15% or any money as was suggested. That could coud be turned against you. You don't need to be accused of racketeering.
blue
I would be careful about asking for 15% or any money as was suggested. That could coud be turned against you. You don't need to be accused of racketeering.
Ah, that was a joke. Sorry I didn't put a ;^) or whatever after it.
You wanna handle this one?
SamT
In my Mass town as an HO i can pull a permit to do work on my own home except for electric and plumbing.they still expect drawings, enough so they can determine what you are going to do.If this job gets red tagged who is going to the blame? and the bad rep.definately needs to be reported.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
nothing I like better than giving a decent spanking.
Inkobo should get a copy to be sure what happened. If it happened as expected, send the Building Inspecter a letter, with cc to HO and District Attorney, stating the it is a fraudulent application and not his signature. Filing a false instrument is a crime.
They probably wouldn't prosecute the HO, but it'll give her a good scare and buy some good will with the Building Inspector and DA. And, it's just fun.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
it's a good thing ( to borrow a phrase from Martha) when I see a man who loves his work!;)
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If it were me, I wouldn't get into any accusations of fraud, etc. I would, however, check the permit and - if my name was on it - I would have my attorney send letters to the permit department, the state licensing board, and my insurance carrier stating that I have no involvement in the permitted work and accept no liability for the job. I would also bill the HO for whatever time I have to spend dealing with this as well as my attorney's fees.
then if it was you, I'd tell you to do whatever you thought appropriate.
Sorry, SHG - I forgot to click the reply to "ALL". It's still pretty early here and I haven't had my full ration of coffee - lol.
SHG,
If the permit is in INK's name, Would he have the right, and would he be well served to send the assmonkey doing the work something along the lines of a "Cease and Desist" letter? Maybe telling him Ink intendes to have the permit pulled?
Robert,
Scott will correct me if I'm wrong.
I hope.
But it seems to me that if Ink uses any of the rights he would have if the permit was good, then he may be assumeing the resposibilities as if it were good.
He would definately assume ownership of anything he touched.
The only thing I might want to do, would be to grab the permit out of the house, and even then I would take a peace keeping LEO with me as a witness.
SamT
as for the cease and desist letter, that generally applies to an ongoing violation of a right, i.e., copywrite or use of image. No need and not nearly enough fun. Scare the crap out of 'em. Make 'em beg for mercy. Make 'em rue the day they messed with your good name.
And Ink could assume responsibility for the permit by acquiescing, which could be accomplished tacitly by knowing that the permit was in his name, not putting a stop to it. He would actively do so by adopting it by performing work. You can always validate something after the fact. But he does not do so by merely learning of it and doing nothing to stop it because he is under no duty to do so.
more or less.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
God, I like your style, right down to the gray zone and the Mencken quote.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
thanks. I'm blushing.
I'd pay at least a dollar to see a NY lawyer blush
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That dollar would get you about 1/450th of an hour, so look quick.
>>But it seems to me that if Ink uses any of the rights he would have if the permit was good, then he may be assumeing the resposibilities as if it were good.The answer to something like would likely vary from state to state, but you raise a really good point: even if he didn't assume any laibility as a matter of law, it could be awfully expensive getting to make that point.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
In NC the GC needs to contact the license board.
Even better, when this is resolved in your favor, I'd tip off the local paper to publisize the event. Three good things; a warning to others, makes you look like a rightious dude, and free advertisement! My $0.9/10's worth, as the gas stations say.
I think I would only want the parties involved to know of this one. The HO, the contractor, Building Permits and Inspection Dept, and the local AG.
No point in sowing seeds that may sprout in someone elses yard or your own agian.
Free advertisements should be about the quality of you work, not how you got duped.
Dave
Re: "I think I would only want the parties involved to know of this one. The HO, the contractor, Building Permits and Inspection Dept, and the local AG.I agree. No point or advantage to handling this quietly. Its your toes and reputation that are being stepped on. It's your name and license number that will head the list if something goes wrong.You haven't done anything wrong but, at least until your complaint and view registers, the AHJ and legal authorities don't know this. For all they know the HO slipped you a little cash in return for using your license number. Some contractors do it. They are trading their reputation and possible legal responsibility for cash on the side.Getting the word out that this is not the case in this situation is something you need to get out early, loudly and in a well documented manner. If anything was to happen, and the inspector or insurance company has to come to you, correcting the misconceptions will be much more difficult. Your hands, in that case, may not be assumed to be clean. Get the word out while you still clearly hold the moral and legal high ground.
We always have to abide by the law . So should she . Talk with your attorney , see if you can take her to court . She is screwing with your livelyhood . Fraud , falsifying documents , misrepresentation . I'm sure a good lawyer can come up with more . Spank her good .
Mike - Foxboro
Just curious about how everything turned out with the permit or did you have a chance yet to check on it.
Wade
"The State of MA is pushing for only licenced contractors to be allowed to pull permits"
Hope that never comes to pass. ANother Ma F*** up
while there are always the unscroupulos, hurting the many for the few bad ain't right either.
just more work done wothout permits, and no inspections.
Hard as hell now to find good people to do the work.
as an HO I can pull a permit in my Ma town, except for elec and plunbing. But I also have to provide drawings so they know what is being done and how it is goung together,
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
I don't have any advice (since I'm not a contractor), but I would definitely talk to the construction official.
Who knows what quality of work the HO or the contractor she subsequently hired does. If the inspector finds all kinds of violations & lousy workmanship, your license (and hence your reputation) is on the paperwork.
One comment, while a number have mentioned that the possibility of Fraud exists on this... the most significant event and likely the one with the heaviest legal consequences is <!----><!---->
*Perjury* <!---->
-IF- your signature was forged... that's a felony count in most states (all perhaps). If someone signed your name, without consent and express release / permission (power of attorney) the fines and possibility of jail time are very real.<!---->
Hope that's not what happened, but if someone used my name illegally, I would certainly allow the authorities to follow up.<!---->
g'luck
michael
What is happening with this situation now? Any resolution?
She got off light. The judge only cut off two of her fingers, the two she was using to signify what she thought of the system.
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