Our modular home plumbing has been contracted for PEX………
Now builder wants to switch to CPVC….. Should I insist on PEX?
What are the issues: Cost vs ease of installation vs durability?
Any assistance in making a choice will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks, SilverOne
Specifics: Water supply (well) is highly acid (4-4.5pH). Structure is two story Modular (four boxes completed off site) fitted with Manifold for separate supply to each area (Bath 1/Kitchen/Bath 2, etc)
Replies
Definitely stick with PEX. CPVC is cheap and falls apart. More brittle as time goes by. Pex is more like indestructable.
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pex, and install an acid neutralizer when house is complete. your fixtures will love you for it
Thanks,
allready have the neutralizer........
cvpc will fail within six months. If your plumber insist on it, you need to see if you plumber has a license too.
"cvpc will fail within six months"
Oh No, my 40 year old cvpc plumbing is going to fail in the next 6 months.
Oh No, my 25 year old cvpc airline plumbing is going to fail in the next 6 months.
It's a good thing I'm retired, now I'll have something to do next summer.
Ozlander.
Edited 2/21/2007 9:21 pm ET by Ozlander
You have a compressed air line ran in CPVC?
I think your domestic water is fine ( I wouldn't put it in my house, but I'm overly picky on plumbing)
I hope you're not standing next to a compressed air line ran in CPVC or PVC not IF but WHEN it fails.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
Yep, I've heard all the arguments. It's rated for 400 psi, who knows what the burst pressure is, then and now after 25 years. I'm using it at 125 psi, which gives me a 3 to 1 safety factor.
I've heard the same thing about copper, however it's used for freon at up to 350 psi, but somehow that's different.
I've got four saws, two drill presses, two lathes, two routers, two grinders, two belt sanders and two welders all reaching out to grab me, throw something at me or to bite me and I'm supposed to worry about a pipe that's been laying on top of a longeron minding it's own business for 25 years. I think not.
I'm more worried about the air tank.
Ozlander
The funny thing about people who use PVC for airlines is they can always rationalize it, no matter how much evidence there is against its use. It really doesn't have anything to do with the pressure rating (which is for liquid and not compressed gas), but it's the fact that PVC pipe will shatter instead of simply bending if it's damaged.
I've personally seen a couple instances where PVC pipe used for compressed air failed, and it can make a big mess. In one case I happened to be standing across the street from where a PVC fitting on an air compressor came apart, and it sounded like a bomb going off.
"Yep, I've heard all the arguments. "But still don't understand the safety problem. A guy I work with didn't either until the regulator shot past his head when the plastic pipe shattered."I'm using it at 125 psi, which gives me a 3 to 1 safety factor. "Sure, if you were using it with a liquid like it was tested for."I've heard the same thing about copper, however it's used for freon at up to 350 psi, but somehow that's different."Well, you've got me here, I've never heard copper was not good for compressed air duty. It routinely is used on many gaseous systems. There ARE different thicknesses of copper pipe, use the one that is correct. But, the big difference is that the copper does not propagate cracks the same way as the plastic. It splits, but the pieces stay attached for the most part."I'm more worried about the air tank."Well, if it has rust in the bottom, you may be right! The rust can cause the parts to shatter since the structural bond is weakened.25 years? The longer oil stays in the pipe, or sun falls on it, the more brittle it becomes....I'll never change your mind, just trying to prevent others from installing a bomb in their shop.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Pressure rating is useless unless it's the same product that it was tested for.
You say 400 psi heh---- how about 5 psi of steam, think it will hold?“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I'm very carefull to keep steam out of my air compressor, thank you.
And I'm very carefull to keep my shop below 100 C.
How do you install and pressure test without getting any air inside your plumbing?
I'm sure the mfg knows his CPVC will have air in it at 125 psi at some point in time.
Ozlander
Big difference between site testing & rated use.
Big difference between ambient air being introduced & compressed air fron a compressor.
Eventually it will fail, I all ready know that I am not going to sway your opinion.
Just because it "works" for you & hasn't failed yet doesn't mean that it is right.
I know I can wrap aluminum foil around my fuses to keep them from blowing, & for the most part it won't be a problem, but if I say it's fine & dandy Gunner, DanH, BillH & others will rip me a new one for recommending a dangerous thing to do.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I'd be comfortable using CPVC for domestic hot and cold water, but wouldn't bother because PEX is a superior product. Far less likely to yield and fail or sag and pull apart at a joint if the water gets a little hot. CPVC is good for a maximum continuous service temperature of 180 F (80 C), with very significant de-rating. Heat it to 100 C for even short periods and it's toast.
I'd also be comfortable using, and have used, CPVC for some very hazardous liquid services.
I would NOT use it for compressed gases of any kind, beyond 15 psig. It is unsafe because it is prone to brittle fracture generating schrapnel, and ALL the manufacturers know it and state that clearly in their design documents. IPEX, Georg Fisher. the Europeans- all of them. That brittle fracture may happen any time during the service life, but is pretty likely after 25 years even in an environment completely sheltered from UV and other embrittlement factors. Doesn't mean your pipe will blow up tomorrow, or ever, of course. Just make sure that your pipe is safeguarded and you wear safety glasses whenever you're near it, and don't let anybody into your shop who might sue you. Or better still, stick to something which is actually fit for purpose!
You are aware that NO manufacturer of pvc or cpvc pipe recommends its use for compressed air? Not to open this old discussion again...But, do not be standing in the same room when it explodes! Think air cannon type shrapnel. Lots less stored energy in the same psi of water.Frank DuVal You can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
"cvpc will fail within six months".
Hmmn, I built my mother's house in 1980 and the cvpc has never leaked.
I don't mind using cpvc if thats what the job calls for and if installed properly its a good product.
But I enjoy using pex, some say it doesn't look as nice copper,but looks don't make it work better.
On an air line job I use black iron, it has to do with liability, I like to keep mine warm and dry. [ not talkin pipe either]
A few years back there was a plumber killed not far from here, air testing pvc. At the time it was brought up that the manufacturer would not warranty air test in excess of 5 psi.
That being said could you bye me a lotto ticket?
I hang around alot of cars and garage forum, you be amaze at how many using pvc lines. so are even pro's. like those at JLC. I like to think of it has Gods way of weeding out the stupid. You cant talk to them. although I see their point. Cheap.
brownbagg,
If you look up my city you'll find out that CVPC is fine.. Now I live in the richest city in Minnesota.. click on 55391 and find out what property costs. If there was something inferior about CVPC you can bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't be allowed..
How about PEX for air. I don't think the pipe would shatter, but I bet one of those little copper rings could put a nice dent in the back of your head! They say PEX will burst at the pipe before the fitting?
Has anyone tried PEX for air?
I am currently running about 60 or 70' of Uponor pex for my air lines in the garage.
It's an experiment to see how well it holds up.
Uponor says in their directions to test with air during freezing conditions.
Pex is the only non metallic piping that my inspectors will allow an air test on.
Those yellow coiled 1/4" hoses that come in those air tool kits is polyethylene.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I do not see much difference between some air hoses and PEX. The air hoses are crimped in a similar way. If you did have a connection come loose I think it would be no different than a hose popping loose.
I am thinking of running a few small pieces of PEX in my shop. The air pressure would never exceed 110 PSI. I do not see much chance of danger or bodily injury.
There's nothing wrong with using PEX for air lines, though you would NEVER use plastic material of any kind to connect the compressor head to the tank- that would be too hot Once the air's in the tank, the temperature is definitely low enough. You can even used non-crosslinked polyethylene tubing for compressed air service. Thousands of miles of it are used yearly in industrial plants for compressed air drops to air cylinders, valve actuators etc. Note we're talking about tubing, NOT pipe.
The difference between polyethylene and PVC/CPVC is that the latter is a brittle plastic with some plasticizer dumped in to give it a little flexibility. When it goes, it shatters and the schrapnel can kill or seriously injure you.
Seriously: it's not worth the apparent savings- DON'T use CPVC or PVC for air lines- it is NOT fit for that purpose.
To add to what Molten said.
It's not the connection that I am worried about, it's what happens when something fails--- ie the pipe.
PVC & CPVC is a brittle plastic that breaks apart like tempered glass, & shards will go flying from the release of energy. Pex maintains integrity trying to stay together, so a split stays a split, not a bunch of small pieces moving away with great velocity.
100 psi of water will expend it's energy with the loss of a few drops. 100 psi of air has to lose about 90% of its' volume to deplete the energy.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
brownbagg,
I agree that Pex is better, however My house is plumbed in CVPC and it hasn't fallen apart in six months. In fact I often remove old CVPC and reuse it. I know the stuff there is nearly 30 plus years old and for the 22 years I've lived here it hasn't given me any problems..
I use Pex as the in floor radiant heat tubing so I'm familar with it but really you don't have to make such over blown statements regarding CVPC. pex is easier simpler but many plumbers have no experiance with it so they stick with what they know..
I am with the PEX I will never go back to CPVC
Like Piffin said!
What they all said.
What we all keep saying and saying and saying
Both comply with code requirements.
Both will serve you well.
Pex will serve you better by far that is all I use now and all my plumbers will use.
good luck
PEX fittings are alot more $$$$ than CPVC fittings. Of course you need more fittings with CPVC as you cant run homeruns with it. More fittings more chance of failure. I love PEX.
"Both comply with code requirements.
Both will serve you well."
CPVC does not meet code where I live.
Bear
I don't know if codes here allow it or not, but no plumnber I know will touch it. They aren't interested in callbacks or lawsuits.
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A lot of cities will not allow CPVC. CPVC is junk compared to PEX.
Some folks have raised some concerns about (some of?) the PEX connectors.
So far, the criticisms I've read leave me unconvinced: many fail to distinguish between the fittings and the pipe itself.
It's early days though.
If I were choosing, I'd go with PEX, but I'd make sure the installer himself is comfortable and experienced working with it.
I'd also try to find out why the builder wants to make the switch: forcing contractors to install something (i) they don't like or (ii) they have personally had problems installing or (iii) is going to cost them significant $$$ generally isn't a good idea.
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
Silver
If the guy was offering to plumb the damn house for me free using CPVC or full price for the Pex it'd still opt for Pex.
Go with the majority.
Anybody that's using CPVC for their air lines is taking a big chance, but what do I care - as brownbagg stated, we need to weed out the weak!
Doug
DougU
I certainly agree with regard to using plastic for compressed air. The heat generated in compressing the air will raise the temp too close to the failure point. However I disagree with regard to using CVPC. MY house has had CVPC for at least 30 years that I can determine and in that 30 years it has never failed.. I often cut out the old CVPC and reuses it.. If I'm clever I can find a piece with just the right length and even a few correct fittings.. I cut my CVPC on my sliding compound mitre saw and it cuts like butter even thirty year old pipe.. The interior is clean and build of up free so I see no reason not to reuse it..
I pressure test my connections because it's so easy to do and yes I've had a few fail the pressure test.. because of my carelessness in assembly, but the pressure tests finds weak connections long before they fail in actual use..
When I used to sweat copper together I had about the same number of failures so it's not the material.. I'd kinda like to use copper still but who can afford the costs involved? Plus even with the reduced lead solder you still are getting trace amounts of lead..
Frenchy
I have a house down in Texas that has CPVC plumbing, about 30 years old.
Last summer I remodeled both bathrooms and the one thing I noticed about the CPVC was that it took little more then a slight bump to break it loose, usually around the conections, very brittle stuff.
I wouldnt plumb my dog house with the stuff - I think of it as "low end" plumbing and around here if a house has it in it thats exactly the reaction of most of the people.
I worked at a shop in Austin, TX where all the air lines were run with CPVC, all because the owner was as tight as the paint on the wall! He was well protected from a law suit so what did he care, he probably wasnt going to be around when/if the sh!d broke.
I dont know if CPVC is code around here or not, I'd like to think not but I'm not sure. I do know, and this has nothing to do with what your neighborhood is worth, CPVC is considered "low end" or DIY'er friendly, either way its not a good selling point to a house. Of course thats just our neck of the woods - others will disagree. Sweating copper is about as easy as gluing two pieces of plastic together so I cant imagine doing it any other way.
Disclaimer; I know there are parts of the country that copper is not a good idea because it develops leaks so I understand why they would use CPVC but now that we have Pex I dont know why they wouldnt opt for it, much better product.
Doug
you said that if CPVC were an inferior product, your locality would not allow it.You know that is hogwash.For example, you can buy composition shingles that are rated to last fifteen years or fifty years. One is inferior to the other but is still allowable.OrYou can frame a house with 2x4s or with honkin big walnut beams. Clearly one is inferior to the other, but it is still allowed. You'd actuallly have a harder time getting frame inspection in some places on the timber frame even though probably better depending on the connections.or take your car collection. You can probably point out different options on each vehicle that is superior or inferior to the others.But with all that variety, you can stil get inspections on them. They are allowed to be driven on public highways for the use they are designed and intended.In this discussion, think of the CPVC as a VW Rabbit and the PEX as a GMC 3500 4x4. Both can be driven on the road acceptably. But which is better for pulling a load?Or
in the case of the airline, which is better for pulling five tons over a pass in the Rockies?CPVC was allowed some 35 years ago and not enough p[eople have had failure catastrphicly to require that it be pulled off the market yet, but time ages it and leaves a lot of disappointment around. The more that time goes on, the more people learn to hate and avoid it.Notice that they don't make the VW Rabbit anymore?
The time is coming for CPVC
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I guess you have had time to weigh the issues by now. After an review of your first post, it is pretty clear tomy mind that the reason the builder wants to change from specs is to save money.
So your decision should be based on your budget and your risk tolerance and whether you want the minimally acceptable or the best
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