*
I too, had thought there was no question that Larry Haun was
god, especially after FHB claimed that nobody else had ever
made more framing sawcuts, in the history of the world.
Of course that’s just words, right?
Dog
ps. personally, I can’t see how cutting without a line can
produce framing to the quality standards we work with around
here.
xxxxxxxxxx
Replies
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You do use your eyeball all the time....it's just that for some things you have gotten used to the crutch of a line to follow. Test yourself....can you see a 3/16" reveal on a door casing, and whether it's 1/32" off? Of course you can, you wouldn't think of marking a jamb to get the reveal right. Can you see a 1/4" of bow in a 16' joist? Certainly, and you wouldn't think of string-lining joists before you roll them. And, in terms of angles, if you can see an out-of-square cut after it's made, why not trust that you can see the table of your saw square to the 2X4 before you make the cut? With the practice that comes with full-time framing it becomes second nature, like reaching for the tape and pencil without looking. Now, let's not get into the subject of building stain-grade cabinetry with a sawzall....
Ben Carnes
*You do use your eyeball all the time....it's just that for some things you have gotten used to the crutch of a line to follow. Test yourself....can you see a 3/16" reveal on a door casing, and whether it's 1/32" off? Of course you can, you wouldn't think of marking a jamb to get the reveal right. Can you see a 1/4" of bow in a 16' joist? Certainly, and you wouldn't think of string-lining joists before you roll them. And, in terms of angles, if you can see an out-of-square cut after it's made, why not trust that you can see the table of your saw square to the 2X4 before you make the cut? With the practice that comes with full-time framing it becomes second nature, like reaching for the tape and pencil without looking. Now, let's not get into the subject of building stain-grade cabinetry with a sawzall....Ben Carnes
*
Ed
I want to work for someone like you someday. Not on the fancy ones, on the normal ones. I want to learn how, and You talk like quality really does come first. That's refreshing.
Scott
*Mr. Williams - My little framing outfit also has fifteen men. The higher paid ones make one mark, then cut. The green ones will pull out the square even on chopsaw cuts. Either way, if it isn't exact, it comes out. No, Larry is not God, but he would be one of the highest paid men on my crew. P.S.---Foul language is a sign of inadequacy, helplesness, frustration. You sound confident up until you tip your hand. Have you ever framed before?
*Dear Ed: No offense meant, and neither did I mean to imply that Larry is God. It was merely a defense of a man I've come to admire.Andy
*
Phew, that is one stinky squirtin' match you fellas are engaged in.
At any rate, I have not seen the FHB article, but I have watched and learned a lot from Haun's video on framing. He cuts 2x4s or 2x6s by eye but if you watch closely, or better yet try it yourself, you'll see that it is not magic. In fact, there are lines everywhere for him to work from -- granted they are not pencil lines. First, the plates laid out perpendicular to the one that is going to be cut provide a "line" across the 2x when sighted from above. This is as good as a pencil line given the ability to keep things still and handle a saw. Second, as the sole of the saw is placed on the board it reaches to within about an inch of the far side of the cut on a 2x4. The front of the sole and the far edge of the board can be easily made parallel because the gap is not that great. It's not like he throws a plate on the floor walks up and gives it a chop w/o any reference. Finally, he nails his plates together for cutting which ensures that they are the same length. Arguably the most important parameter in a good wall. No magic, just efficient use of methods that lead to a decent wall.
Bob
*
JR,
Sorry sir, my vulgarity was uncalled for. I appoligize and you will find no more such language in my further posting at this site. It is a common practice on most job sites, but I feel it is probably not welcome here. My regrets to SYSOP also.
My first job at age 18 was as a grunt with an apartment "framing" crew. Oh yes, I have done my share of framing. I am now too old to walk the plate anymore.
Respects,
Ed. Williams
*Andy,Your admiration is well founded. I just recieved my copy of the article today. Thank you for your work with helping todays craftsmen be appreciated.Ed. Williams
*DSOB,Thank you.......but you don't need me.....it's obivious you have the right idea. Go forth and make our profession proud.Best of luck in your endeavores,Ed. Williams
*The human eye is an incredible thing, hooked up to a brain with some experience. I have no trouble believing Larry can nail it without layout lines, using the references noted above. You can see the same idea with top shelf woodworkers; if the corner of their workbench is square, they can use that as a refernce and handsaw something as square as if they had squared a line. Try measuring half a thirty second (or whatever); but if you can see the two lines, you can divide it in two by eye, bang on.
* Fred,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*
*Did anyone read the article in this months FHB by Larry Haun on plate layout? Is it me or does this guy seem like he's in too much of a hurry? I don't see whats wrong with using your speed square to draw a line before cutting. In his article he says he just eyes it with the line on the deck. I've read other articles where he's written about similar methods where he eyes things up. I just don't think this is the hot set up , maybe it works for him but isnt the name of the mag. FINE homebuilding?
*This is the second post about articles in a FHB I don't have yet. Even the closest HomerD doesn't have it yet. What gives? Joe H
*Keith,I don't "eyeball" anything. That's not the way professionals do it. FHB has had it's share of losers in my opinion. How about the guy who wrote an article on hanging a door in less than 60 seconds......or the article on the wonders of MDF......Sometimes I think the people who are reviewing these submissions for publicaction don't have a clue what "Fine" homebuilding really is all about. Hey, SYSOP.......Has anybody down there ever spent years and years doing this like we have? Or are most of them just journalism students with a BA and no clue? Sometimes I wonder. You can fool some of the people all the time, but you can't fool a real carpenter.Ed. Williams
*Joe,Go to Wal Mart. I picked up my copy this afternoon. Right in front of Norm's TOH mag.Why subscribe? My clients have it before my subscribed issue reaches the mailbox.Oh, BTW.....I was fetchin' some Clorox bleach and Downy Fabric Softener for the wife and happened to notice some kid had pulled a prank and stuffed the November issue between the Tampons and Tampax shelf. From now on, maybe you should call your Wal-Mart clients and ask them if you could "preview" a copy of the latest Fine Homebuilding. Or just go to Sam's place and read it for free?
*I worked with a guy for a while who was a framer by trade. He never used a square to mark a 2 X 4, just marked 'em for length and cut 'em by eye. At first I was astonished. I thought, "what a butcher". His cuts were always square though. It was just one skill he had that I didn't. I've seen plenty of guys use a square and cut crooked too. There's more than one way to skin a cat. What matters is results in my book. Larry Haun deserves the benefit of the doubt. If he says that's how he does it, I am confidant it ends up square. I'd be honored to work along side him, any day. - jb
*Joe, Issue # 126, Nov 99. Mine came last week. Taunton has a special Breaktime sub-forum for folks who do not get there magazines on time. Check the top of the main Breaktime page. Subscription timelness was a real problem 8-10 months ago but, at least in my case, it has improved.As for Larry Haun I think the message in all of his articles is "This is how I do it. Feel free to use and adapt my techniques if you like." I find him informative but much of what he advocates is out of my league. I am not going to defend him but I certainly dont't think I am in any position to criticize him either.
* Ed,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Juicy topic,Larry has been a regular contributor for years now. If I was going to be a framing sub contractor or work on a framing crew I would read his stuff two or three times and sort out what might work for me. I remember his no square, eyeball cuts from earlier articles and think there is a place for this method. The article I'm chuckling about is the interlock wheatherstrip. I despise that stuff, and hope I never feel like I have to fit a new door to an old interlock frame asgain. JB do you love or hate that interlock stuff? I'll be suprised if you don't have an opinion.Joe
*I have read Larry's Very Efficient Carpenter, and have decided Larry is God.
*I too, had thought there was no question that Larry Haun was god, especially after FHB claimed that nobody else had ever made more framing sawcuts, in the history of the world.Of course that's just words, right?Dogps. personally, I can't see how cutting without a line can produce framing to the quality standards we work with around here.xxxxxxxxxx
*I hesitate to wade into the discussion when the magazine is the topic. But Larry is an amazing craftsman and a gentleman of the first order. Joe is right, that was a real house Larry was working on. I'm a former carpenter, as are all of the editors here. Larry is approaching twice my age, and I have my doubts whether I could keep up with him. And while he does eyeball most cuts, they're dead on. Try it, you may be surprised just how close to square you can cut. Carpenters develop an uncanny ability walk a floor and tell that it's out of level, or sight a post that isn't plumb. Larry's cuts are an extension of those abilities. Best,Andy Engel
*Dear Andy,Without regard to the content of the discussion; I love it when a guy has his friend's back. May we all be blessed with such friendships.Joe
*Ed, With all due respect, if you don't eyeball anything, you better stay the hell off my job. This shouldn't be a problem since you live in Texas, my home state, by the way.I spend a lot of time teaching new carpenters to use and trust their eye. Examples include checking to see that a stringline is taut, plumbing posts, spindles, etc., and yes even squaring a cut on a framing member. Not developing these skills is for the Harry Homeowner set. If you can't cut a 2x4 to square within a 32nd with your eye, I'll bet you can't cut a 2x12 straight even with a square line.Tom
*Gentlemen,Well, well, well......I sure stired the hornets nest now didn't I.I'm sure Mr. Haun is a fine craftsmen and a gentleman to boot. I don't know him but it would be my pleasure to work with him anytime. However, if he comes on MY job and free-hands his skilsaw cuts, him and I are gonna have words. I don't like it and won't have it. I don't care who you are, that just ain't gonna get it. I'm sure he doesn't cross cut 23 7/8" bulk-head material free-handed when he is building cabinets, and I won't allow anyone to free-hand cuts on even 2x4s even for a deck. You can sister your saw up to a speed square...that's ok...or a framing square...no problem. I'll set you up with a good mitre box or a radial arm saw if that's what you like, but free-handed cuts.....I don't think so.I'm sure Mr. Haun is humbled and maybe a bit embarassed by the title of "God". Any true Master Carpenter would be.Sure, I can see that a wall is out of plumb.....I can see when there is a dip in the floor or ceiling. I can even tell you by looking if your cabinets are out of level. But it'll be a cold day in hell when I or any of our carpenters will BUILD anything just using thier "eyeballs".Mr. Haun,I hope you won't take offense to my difference of opinion with your methods. If you can free-hand all your crosscuts perfectly square, then maybe you are God.Mr. Engel,It's nice to know that all of the editors at FHB are former carpenters. I still think some of the things you write about are not worthy of "Fine" homebuilding. My opinion.Joe Fusco,I have 15 carpenters on my payroll today. I can't do all that work myself. I oversee and work with them on methods and answer carpentry questions that go across the board. Perhaps if I had, or needed, a web site you might not be so quick to judge me. (Like I really give a fuck what you think) I could tell you about the 35,000 sq. ft. estate here in Dallas that we trimmed for an owner of a software company. It was stiled as an English Manor. Or maybe the 18,000 sq. ft. house that we built the interiors for the owner of the Dallas Cowboys. Or maybe the 20,000 sq. ft. house that we are currently involved with here in Dallas for Don Henley..........but I digress. (Did I mention the $80,000.00 doll house......that's another story). You won't see pictures of those projects.....the customers wouldn't like thier homes plastered on the internet. These are very wealthy and private people. I hope you enjoyed the inlay pictures, we had fun doing that small project. I thought the guys here who made suggestions should see the results.My best to all,Ed. Williams