Plumbing Problem – Right, wrong, Crazy?
OK, before any other “comments” it is a well know fact that I am crazy, but my question has to do with this particular plumbing problem.
As I discussed in another thread I was doing some electrical work in a kitchen while the counter top was being replaced. Included in that was a new faucet. And stop valves. There was not even one for the DW.
Like so manythings in this house the plumbing was all screwed up. They just used what strange combination of parts that they had until they got from here to there. The guy doing the counter top was cussing and complain and was having alot of problems. Ended up cutting it out and puting in new fitings.
I go back on Sunday to finish up and connect the DW and disposal and noted that the cabinet was damp. I figured that was from the all of the leaks from the day before and had the HO leave the cabinet open and fan running.
She called me Monday to say that it was leaking. The other guy was not avaiable so I went over to look at it.
The leak was on both the hot and cold stop valves where they screws on the copper pipe to thread adapter. The DW one did not leak, but it was a different style of valve.
I won’t go through what all I tried to stop the leaks, but the fact that the DW valve did not leak should have been a clue, but I missed it all together.
So I finally removed cold water valve and looked at it. At this time I THOUGHT that I had stopped the leak on the hot water side. They are Watts balls valves. The female threads look funny. More like Acme threads rather than pipe threads. The screwed on correctly and felt like it made up correctly.
My guess is the the hole was bored a little big before threading.
So I go to the local hardware store and they did not have the style that I need so I went to Lowes where I think they came from orginally. In both stores they had 50ish clerks. I don’t know if they actually had any plumbing experince are not. But both of them really knew there plumbing fittins and what goes with what. Both of them said that I was crazy and if they threaded on and did not have any cracks (which I could not see any) that I justed need more teflon tape. I had already tried 3-4 turns.
I went ahead and pawed through the box at Lowes. There was a lot of missed placed parts in that bin and several other looked as bad as the one that I had. But I found one that had nice sharp threads on it. Installed and no problems.
BUT, I see that the hot water side is now leaking. So I don’t know if know if Lowes has anymore that are good and I am still doubting myself if the threads where realy bad.
So I remember a plumbing supply store not too far away so I go their. The counter guy started with the same comments about just needing more tape and if the nipple will go thread it it should be OK. But I did get him to look at the threads and he agreed that they did looked “different”. So I got the other stop valve from him and replaced it and not leaks.
So the question is where the threads really bad or should I have keep trying more tape until I got up to 10 or 20 turns. Or maybe epoxied it to gether?
BTW, I think I remember reading about a similar problem here a couple of months ago. Otherwise I don’t think that I would have even looked at the threads.
Replies
Well Bill,
Your not crazy, just a little light on the teflon tape and how tight the fittings are.
That's it, a bit more tape, (6-9 turns) and use a wrench to hold the copper MIP and turn the fitting 'till it won't go no more............
No chance there is an insert within the valve?
1. The copper fitting may have deformed when it was sweated. Clumsy pliers.
2. We started using ball valves for all shut offs, except for the toilet valve, about 2 years ago. No more call backs for valves that were frozen in the open position by a client panicing and turning the valve the wrong way.
3. We wrap the male threads with teflon tape and apply teflon paste in the female threads now as typical.
4. You may have gotten a lemon. The Box you got it from should replace it. Is the $6 worth the time? I dunno.
5. When replacing one valve replace the other. You're down there with the set up and it is the best use of your time. We don't even offer the HO the option of single valve replacement.
6. Even when just replacing a bathroom sink we change the valves, unless WE recently put them in.
7. Many HO try to save money by surgically replacing fixtures. I discourage this by explaining that if we have to replace whatever they have not deemed nec. they are taking on the responsibility and will pay a premium to do it later. The Premium is for my unscheduled time AND the damage to their stuff AND the inconvenience when it happens.
8. If the thread schedule was wrong you would have only been able to turn it less than two revolutions. How many times/ revolutions did you get?
"8. If the thread schedule was wrong you would have only been able to turn it less than two revolutions. How many times/revolutions did you get?"
That is what the other people where trying to tell me. The valve thread on OK. And if anything too easy. I think that the nipple was bottoming out.
BTW, the nipple was the first thing that I replaced.
I don't know how they are make, but my guess is that they don't use a tap. But rather they bore out the hole and then use an internal cutter to cut the thread.
I don't have any way to acurate measure it (or a standard to compare with). But my thinking is that the hole was bored oversize and then threaded. The base of the thread (female) is nice and sharp, but the tops have a flat plateau.
Just curious, why do you not use the ball valves on the toliet.
I got turned on to these a few years ago by a plumber friend, and whenever I'm working on a sink or something I toss the old teardrop handle valves and put these in. Much more reliable, easier to use, etc.. Plus, at ####plumbing store, they're often cheaper then the cheapo teardrops at box stores.
Now, teflon paste, never knew it existed. Gonna get me some.
Thanks for the tips.
"Just curious, why do you not use the ball valves on the toliet. "
Simple Asthetics. I have never seen them in chrome. I have cocidered having them chromed.
I have a similar problem. I bought a threaded shower valve becuase they don't sell the solder type at Lowes or HD. I applied Teflon tape and cranked it down best I could. Then I soldered it to the pipe. But I have a very small leak. It's so small, a small droplet of water hangs at the threads and rarely, if more than once a day, falls. How in the heck do you hook these things up and solder them once? I keep draining the water, heating up the joint to unsolder, tighten and resolder. This could go on forever. Will the paste help this?
Thanks,Steve
1) solder, then screw.
the heat from sweating the joint will damage the teflon/dope seal in the threaded joint if you try to do it in the other order.
2) wrap in teflon tape, then add dope over that for the best seal and no callbacks
3) the chrome ball valves for toilet supply are becoming available all over the place now, Brasscraft calls them "1/4 turn". Home Creapo sells them, but I have not seen them at Blowes. My little, local hardware store has the best assortment of these little wonders (True Value), but my other favorite little store never heard of them (ACE).
4) bad threads, bad fittings, lots of stuff coming from China/etc. and many threads are crap, and many castings are weak (and crack way too easily). When you have the choice, I recomend to buy "made in the USA" plumbing fittings for best results (definitely gonna have to go to your contractor supply to be sure about this, rather than one of the 'big box' stores).
Happy Plumbing.
By the way, a leak that only drips about one drop / day will tend to, over time, develop a big furry ball of minerals around the joint. Definitely ugly.
And a slow, slow leak can grow due to erosion, and you may not get a good warning when it decides to 'let go'. The best way to check for super slow leaks is to go back after 24 hours and wipe with a tissue, any moisture at all is a warning that something's not quite right yet.
Both Mueller B&K and Watts make them in chrome
http://www.bk-ind.com/BK/f_bestop.html
http://www.wattsbrass-tubular.com/productlookup/kwikstop.htm
Then on the left "Kwik Stop Water Supply Stop Valves".
Although the Watts is the one that I was having the problems with I think that Watts is a good brand and these where just a bad batch.
I see others have covered this, but I buy my 1/4 turn valves at a plumbing supply store called 'Standard Plumbing. I would assume most any plumbing supply store could get them. They carry them in straight and right angle varieties chromed, and will order gold if you want it. Plus they carry or will order several variants of solder on or compression fitting. Usually I can shut off the water, uncrew the old valve and screw a new compression style 1/4 turn on the old nut w/o any problems. Nice easy $4-5 upgrade.
I installed about 22 Watts brand quarter turn chrome plated ball valves that screw into half inch pipe and every one of them held like a charm. I got mine at HD and they are all metal (even the handles), I pre-assembled them to cpvc half inch male pipe fittings with a couple turns of teflon tape and then some Harvey's teflon pipe thread compound. I also did what directions said not to, I put a very small amount of the compound on the female threads of the valve wiping it into the female threads so that as the cpvc adapter screws in it will push a small amount to the inside of the valve. I have had trouble with plastic to metal pipe joints before and now that I use this method I have not had a single leak(knock on wood). I also used this same method on all three shower valves and outside ####, then the sheetrocker covered them up before I could test them. I crossed my fingers and turned on the water then ran all though the house checking for leaks. Thats been six month ago and all is well. I think I paid a little less than $3 a piece for the Watts brand valves and then HD honored a 25% off coupon that another store was running, what's not to like about that! Good luck on your installation.
Rich
Where are you located? The HD's around here(NY, CT) don't carry them.
The Lowes here carries the 1/4 turn ball valves, but they are shelved far from the gate valves all by themselves. You have to ask or stumble upon them by accident.
Oddly, the same situation used to exist at the local hardware store. The ball valves were shelved a fair distance from the gate valves with other merchandise intervening.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Gentlemen,
I am not a plumber but I have a great deal of experience in oil refineries tubing up things that work at thousands of pounds. Swagelock, a manufacturer of high pressure fittings will tell you that no properly made thread will require more than two turns of teflon and they say that the real reason for the teflon is to prevent galling between the stainless steel fittings. Theoretically, brass and copper fittings don't need any teflon because they do not gall. That said, I realise that domestic plumbing fittings are not made to the same quality standards as high pressure fittings. The point is that the better quality the fitting the less teflon is needed. You may draw your own conclusions as to the quality of the fittings you are buying.
As a saftey note, ALWAYS solder then connect threaded fittings. When teflon is heated too much, it will off gas Phosgene gas which is the same gas used in WWII to gas troops. Another name for it is Mustard gas. If breathed or if it gets in your eyes, it will combine with water to make Phosphoric acid which will do permanent damage.
I'm around Wichita Kansas, both HD's have them here, they are in the plumbing dept. by the brass fittings display. Good luck!
Rich
"We started using ball valves for all shut offs, except for the toilet valve, "
Why not the toilet? Between that and the sink those chrome plated mickeymouse shutoffs always seem to calcify and are unable to be operated 12 years after installation. A ball valve would seem a natural to crack the problem. Plus the handle is nothing more than die cast beer can metal. You hit a pet peeve.
If I was able to find the chrome plated version everyone else is talking about I would. Still can't find it in NY, CT and NJ. Anybody else out there have any resources in the tri-state area?
You're definitely not crazy especially if you know what an acme thread is. The 1/2" ball valves you so kindly replaced were, in fact, defectively threaded.
In my experience, a typical tapered pipe thread takes about 2-1/2 to 3 turns before you need a wrench and wrapping the male threads with 3 to 4 turns of tape, lapping half the tape width, as you did, is just about right.
Eric S.