Hi all. I’m installing new 1/2″ copper lines in my apartment. Before I sheetrock I plan to “stub out” each line (vanity, toilet, shower/tub and kit sink) and then solder on a copper cap so I can test for leaks. (1) with the air traped in each line, how long do I wait before I’m confident of no leaks, (2), do I heat the caps to remove them before soldering on shutoff valves, or do I cut them off? Also, is there a proper length for the “stub out”? Thanks for any tips.
Ok. I now know I have to cut off the copper caps after testing for leaks. Next question: Is there a “best” method for stub outs? In other words, compression fittings angle stop, solder angle stops or should I transition to threaded nipples and thread on angle stops? Is there no preferred method, only personal preferences? Thanks for any input.
Edited 6/1/2007 1:19 pm ET by rick12
Replies
I'd also solder caps on long stubs, and cut off later.
I like the 1/4 turn ball valve shutoffs myself, but I'd go with whatever is going to be able to sit in one position for 10 years, and then be expected to actually seal when you need it.
Spend the extra couple of bucks now - you'll be passing along good karma to the next guy.
I don't think compression fittings are liked by anyone (IMHO) unless you're in a pinch (pun). If you have full access to do a good solder job, that would be the way I'd go.
I've never met a standard (old school) multi-turn sink or WC shutoff that could actually seal after a few years of sitting. The rubber seal hardens and rots with age and water deposits. I think the ball valves nowadays use a poly or a teflon for longer life.
--but I'm no pro...
bump.
Thanks for your input Jason. I've done plumbing repairs before but never plumbing out water supply for a full bathroom and kitchen. I wasn't sure about the stub outs. I've often seen threaded nipples with stop valves. Seems like a good idea because when the stop valve goes all you have to do is thread on a new valve. But I now think all I need is a well secured copper line with soldered on stop valve.
Rick
There are also premade copper stubouts (straight, L-bend) that save a bit of labor. Small price premium, but you choose if its worth it to you for the labor and time savings. Doing my own home, I went with premades because of the size of the job.
As far as leak testing, you'll know pretty quick if there's a leak or not! LOL! I pumped our system up to 125 PSI and went to work on something else. Air leaks faster than water, so after a half hour or so if there are no leaks, you should be good to go.
As far as the supply valves, I went with compression fitting valves to the 1/2" copper, and it is personal preference. As rick12 says, absolutely do buy a good quality brass 1/4 turn shutoff valve, they're worth every penny.
Edited 6/2/2007 11:31 am ET by formula1
Thanks for your help Formula.
I saw those pre caped stub outs in the store today. I've only got 5 stub outs plus shower and tub. I'm just gunna solder on caps. As far as stop valves, guy at the store today says compression is the way to go. He says you may have to tighten them a little initially, but after that, no leaks. I'm still not sure. Sweating seems easier to me. No heavy cranking down with the wrenches.
Rick
In my years of messing with shutoff valves, I heartily agree about using ball valves. I get the Dahl brand at my plumbing supply house. Nice heavy valves. I use compression valves exclusively. They're just easier to use in my opinion and I've never had a problem with getting them to seal. And, they're easier to replace somewhere down the line. As with most plumbing fittings, I use the traditional 'two wrench' method to snug them up on their ferrule, there's no strain on the pipe itself that way. Bob.
There are some "tricks" to using compression fittings. One is to not force the pipe tightly into the fitting, but leave maybe 1/32" of "head space" at the end of the pipe. As the fitting is tightened the pipe expands in length, and without this headspace it's forced back away from the ferrule's seat, creating a potential leak.Re testing, you should generally wait 30 minutes or so and then examine each joint closely. Sometimes it helps to have a piece of paper towel or tissue -- wipe around the joint and see if any water shows up on the towel. Even one drop indicates a problem, and it's not unusual to have such slow leaks. (Even more common with compression fittings.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Thanks for good info Dan.
If you were on Survivor ($1,000,000.) and the winner was the first to install 10 stop valves with no slow leaks, would you opt for compression or solder?
Rick
I never watch the show.But it would be a tossup. Certainly compression valves can be installed faster (which is why plumbers love them), but a certain % are gonna leak no matter what, and that % goes up as skill level goes down.Of course, soldering is also an acquired skill, and a pure novice will have better luck with compression fittings (which is why home centers love them).But, if the arrangement were with 10 pieces of pipe, all neatly mounted one foot apart, sticking out horizontally, with plenty of room to work around, and if the person doing the job was a "competent DIY plumber", more or less, working with a good torch and other supplies, my money would be on the soldering. Would go nearly as fast as the compression fittings, with less chance of a leak.Where it gets to be a more difficult call is working under a sink with a vertical pipe, flammable material around, and no room to move.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yes you can reuse the ferule if its a matching valve. If not you can remove the ferule with a jeweler's saw and start again. Just go very slow. That allows for the maintenance of the proper length to the valve.
The key ingredient that is missing from all of this info is on the compression ferule use pipe dope Oh and did I say on the ferule use pipe dope.
In a pinch you can use teflon tape but otherwise use pipe dope.
Yeah, pipe dope or a silicone valve lube or some such -- it serves primarily as a lubricant so that the ferrule will compress evenly as the joint is tightened.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
And if you want to get all techie put it(dope) on the pipe/slip on ferrule and then dope it second.
Thanks for the good tip Clay. I've never used pipe dope for anything other than threads.
NO DOPE. It is a metal to metal seal.
Thanks Rich. That was my thinking also. But I don't plumb for a living.
Previous poster, Dan, said
"it serves primarily as a lubricant so that the ferrule will compress evenly as the joint is tightened."
Rick
Edited 6/3/2007 4:27 pm ET by rick12
rich1: When compression fittings started to take over the market [in the 60's] the manufactors recommended using oil on the connection; since most plumbers don't carry oil they started using dope as a lubricant. If you only do a few you may be o.k., but if you do thousands you"re asking for major voodoo, sorry.......................................
"If all else fails fails, read the directions"
Don't do thousands, but I do my share. Still don't do dope. And yes, I have had some leak. I think the biggest problem was lack of decent QC on the pipe.
Well, if you did enough dope you wouldn't care.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I stick with my post, I think that your leaks would be close to zero if you used dope; your call. BTW I don't know what QC means?. Have a good one.......................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
QC == Quality Control
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Since it seems that nothing is made in the U.S.A, where is the quality control?.
Ah, there is some omphaloskepsis after all.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yes I had to look it up. How long have you waited to find a use for it?......................................
'If all all else fails, read the directions"
Actually, I just discovered it on my desk yesterday. Had been lying under the rubble since Feb, apparently, but only recently got around to cleaning things up.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
No wonder I didn't know what QC meant, thats one of the old things that don't exist anymore, right?.
Not sure it ever did.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Are any of you recommending the use of dope on compression fittings plumbers?
I was taught no dope on compression fittings.
ClaysWorld: Agree with your post.......................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Depending on the rules I'd bet on compression every time.
Thanks for the good information Bob.
Why do you say that compression fittings are easier to replace? Can you replace the stop and use the old tightened down ferrule?
Rick
Yeah, I find that a little questionable too. You should generally cut off the end of the pipe and start anew when installing a new compression fitting, but that supposes that you have enough pipe exposed to do this.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I stub out about 8" from framing & sweat on caps.
If the plumbing feed down to the stubs then you will see water drip if it leaks, if the plumbing feeds up then it can take up to 28 days to get the air out, so some soap on the joint & look for bubbles to see if it leaks.
Time for testing is 30 minutes according to various codes, 50psi air test, 1.5 times working pressure for hydrostatic test, live building pressure test will meet code in most jurisdictions.
Length after finish wall for angle stop will vary depending on brand a bit, usually an inch & a quarter for a standard compression stop with escuteon.
I don't measure----- done too many, I usually place my the back of my hand against the finish surface slide pipe between fingers & then put cutters up against my hand---- your hand may vary the result.
Yes you can re-use the ferrul they are a standard & interchangable They also can be removed by a pulling tool------ I usually just grab the nut with my channel locks a wiggle & pull about 1/2 of one percent didn't come off that way , but the rest did.
If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
Thanks for reply Bill.
"If the plumbing feed down to the stubs then you will see water drip if it leaks, if the plumbing feeds up then it can take up to 28 days to get the air out, so some soap on the joint & look for bubbles to see if it leaks."
Could you explain that to me. To me, pressure is pressure. Why should it matter whether the water is coming from above or below?
Rick
That was in responce to testing & air in the lines.
When it's up & running there is no difference, but when capped for test air gets trapped in high spots & needs flow to remove the air, but a riser that is capped will eventually lose the air & be replaced with water.If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
Thanks Bill for your reply.
"When it's up & running there is no difference, but when capped for test air gets trapped in high spots & needs flow to remove the air, but a riser that is capped will eventually lose the air & be replaced with water".
I've seen "anti-banging" devices that look like verticle rubbers(risers) that seem to have air trapped inside. What prevents the air in these devices from eventually escaping and the device failing? Also, in one book I'm reading, I saw a picture of one of these devices installed just below a single handle shower faucet. Is such installation recommended? Thanks.
Also, do you use pipe dope on ferrules (compression fittings)?
Rick
Edited 6/4/2007 8:25 am ET by rick12
The old-fashioned plain vertical stub for suppressing water hammer was susceptable to loss of air, requiring the system to be drained about twice a year to maintain their effectiveness. The purpose-made units contain some sort of a piston or diaphragm to prevent loss of air.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
When we do risers for hammer arresting we need to put a needle valve at the base & have access, eventually they will fill with water like Dan stated.
Also as Dan stated there are "hammer arrestors" that have either a diaphragm or piston instead of trapped air.
& yes it is highly recommended that you use hammer arrestors on any fast closing valve, dishwashers, clotheswashers, ice makers, 1/4 turn tub fillers.
Yes I use dope on compression fittings---- Hercules Megalok¯ as a lubricant so the threads don't bind, & to keep the ferrule from binding as well.
In a perfect world, with perfect tubing & perfect ferrules you don't need any dope, but perfection is a dream.If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
I did not see plumbbill's answer to this but water entry below traps air above like the water hammer arrestors and if entered from above would displace the air below causing it to rise.
I second the use of pipe dope. I usually use Rectorseal. It will make things move easier and fill any imperfections as PBill said. Can not think of any problems it has caused but can remember numerous ones it solved.
Not a full time plumber but do a lot of repair and remodelling.
Before I read everyone's preferences, here's mine. Shark Bite drop-eared brass elbow - 1/2" FPT horizontal; 1/2" push in copper / CPVC / PEX from the bottom. This elbow screws to a 1x4 flat against the sheetrock on the backside of the wall, running stud to stud.
1/2" x 4" Chrome or brushed nickel finish brass pipe nipple protruding from wall; 1/2" pipe escutcheon in the correct finish. 1/4 turn metal angle stop.
Forrest
Thanks for your help Forest. You set out some good choices. I might save a little money by picking non-shark tooth (solder) drop elbow.
Rick
Doesn't anyone else use a threaded fitting male end? Sweat onto the pipe during rough-in, screw on a threaded cap for testing. At trim out, just unscrew the cap & screw on a threaded valve. More secure than compression, easier to replace (years down the line) than sweat.
Definitely ball valve.
Thanks Brooklynfrenchie. Your method will work for me too.
Rick
You're welcome. I always thought that was kind of SOP - it's definitely the most common practise around here, anyways. As for using compression fitting to attach shutoffs? I had never heard of such a thing, before reading this thread. No offense to those who do it, but it strikes me as a very bad idea.
http://www.brasscraft.com/Default.aspx?Page=Products.aspx
Been around for a very long time.If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
I've seen those at the big orange box, but I've never seen one installed. What I see, mostly (95%) is threaded, screwed into a male thread/sweat fitting on the supply tubing. The other 5% are sweated directly onto the pipe.Considering how much comp connections like to leak when they're jostled or bumped, and how much junk people stuff under their sinks... how do the comp shutoffs hold up?
I do commercial/industrial plumbing, plus a highrise condo now & then.
96% of the stops installed on my jobs are compression, about 4% threaded, & on a rare occasion we use sweat ones.
I install all stops above the waste stub out if possible, I've seen more "P" traps come loose & leak from people puting stuff under the sink than I have water supply stops.If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
Definitely with you on the P-trap. Slipnut joints are so touchy...
If you come out the wall with 1/2" copper pipe and then sweat on a copper male adapter, are you able to get an escutcheon over that male adapter?
Rick
Split escutcheon.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What Dan said. Or (if I remember in time, lol), slip it on before sweating the adapter.
Sorry my man, but there has to be hundreds of millions of compression valves installed; I don't know where you are looking?....................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
None of the above.You can install the stop valves at roughin and be done.http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/landing.asp?ctg=5Just need to install trim rings after the DW or cabinets are installed.Don't know what they cost..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Sweet! Thanks for that link.
Under people's sinks. Where else? Maybe it's a new construction vs. rehab thing? But PBill says they've been around forever... ?
Edited 6/5/2007 12:17 pm ET by brooklynfrenchie
But PBill says they've been around forever... ?
I didn't say forever did I?
IIRC late 50's early 60's, my dad said they used to have to stub out soft copper, cause the original ferrules had trouble seating on hard drawn copper tubing.If you don't stand behind the troops, why don't you try standing in front of them. Bumper sticker
To help you get some answers on your 2nd queston it's best not to go back and edit your original post since it won't show up to those who already read/replied your post. Post it as a follow up (by way of 'reply') to your original.