Hey Fellas,
Ive been doing cabinet work for 15 years, Before that we were doing construction and remodeling. So I feel I have a better bond with you guys over the Knots fellas. My question is How do you turn down clients that you know will be a PITA. Is this bad practice? I spoke to this new client yesterday, I just came out and told him the brutally honest truth why I did not want to work with him. I don’t want to come off cocky and the wife said that it may have (you know they have that sixth sense!!!). I told the guy he required too much attention. He was calling me everyday about stupid stuff. He even called me at home (BIG NO NO). He wanted to know what color stain we should use on the piece.(8:45pm). If he calls me at the shop I would not care. The job was a real simple cabinet at the foot of the bed with a plasma tv lift. I love my job, but sometimes the clients really drive me crazy!!!!!!
How do you deal, (you think I would know by now)
Lou
Replies
Just tell them you're really busy.
>>> Is this bad practice?
Maybe if you find yourself doing it very often. But occasionaly it makes good business sense to eliminate the ones who will consume more of your time than worth.
Yeah, with the guy who stood over my shoulder and told me how to paint, the next time he called I said I was really busy and if I ever got some time freed up I'd give him a call. That was last summer. I imagine I'll have some free time just about the time hell freezes over.
There actually are times when honesty is a good idea. I think this was one of them. Temper it as best as possible, but if you really don't want any more business from these people, you pretty much have to say so.
I've had one customer in hundreds that I told not to call me anymore. She was constantly asking me for estimates (which I don't charge for) and we would get into details that were better suited for her interior decorator. After 4 "estimates", none of which resulted in actual work, I told her that she was not respecting my time and not to call me anymore. The only other option would have been to just ignore her. I didn't feel that had integrity.
It's hard to find people like me (carpenter/painter/handyman) so it's really her loss. I have plenty of work. She may not go out of her way to recommend me, but if someone asks her directly what she thought of me, I can't imagine her bad-mouthing me since it would reflect on her too.
Hi Don, what would she think of you if you charged her next time ?
dusty
I've read all of the threads about charging for estimates (or bids, which is what they really are). It won't work in my line of work for a few reasons:
Most of my estimates take only a few minutes, the ones that don't are usually because we get into design/style discussions which are as useful to me as they are to the customer, I never produce drawings or plans which really ought to be charged for, I rarely even produce a formal contract (even though in NJ, all jobs over $500 require a contract), and finally, all of my work is through referrals. Since I want to keep it that way, I want people to know that it doesn't cost them anything to meet me and have me take a look.
And besides, I get almost all of the work that I bid. At least I used to. These days, I'm booked so far in advance that a lot of people can't afford to wait. I tell them that on the phone so I try not to waste a trip if they need the work soon.
don... almost everything you say inyour post is true.. except this :
<<< It won't work in my line of work >>>
i know differently.....i can give you 100's of examples....
another thing you don't take into consideration is...once they have paid for your
PROPOSAL...
you have set the stage for them to hire you to do the jobMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I pretty much agree , it only happens once in a while where I bid and bid and don't get the job . I bid several jobs for this one fellow and he used me to figure things out and told me he was not even calling any others . The next time he ( a multi millionaire ) called me I kindly apologized and told him how covered up with work I was , and told him I'm not even bidding right now .
I've been in the cabinet business for 25 years or so , when I didn't want to do a job I at first would bid them real high , that makes you look like a gouger and is not professional . So I learned to simply be honest as you stated to be the best policy and I tell them , sorry I'll have to pass on that job right now .Or ya know that's just not my cup of tea , they always seem to understand clearly .
dusty
Lou
I think back to one of the smartest decisions that I made regarding the same thing.
I was building a new kitchen for a couple while planning another one for friends of theirs.
The second couple, specifically the wife, would call about the same stuff, hues in the color of the birch contrasting with the cherry floors, Yikes! The straw that finally broke the camels back was when she wanted to switch from birch cabinets to cherry...........all for the same money!
I did a couple vanities for them before all this and that was such an ordeal that I knew it would only get worse so I bowed out. I told them in about the same vain as you did, to much time required to service them properly.
If you think its going to be a painful experiece I'd avoid it if at all posible.
Doug
Lou,
if you depend on" word of mouth"-----it can be dangerous to tell a customer "never call me again"-----almost as dangerous is" I am to busy"
that sort of thing gets around( though I have done both !)
Much better---raise your prices for THAT particular customer through the roof and out of their range-----win/win!
stephen
Stephen,
That technique has it's own risks too. They might then tell all who will listen that you're out to rip people off with prices that are unrealistic.
Care must be exercised with that approach too.
Walter
Walter.. there is no such thing in my book as an "unrealistic price"
either they want you , or they don't..
if i was looking for a copper/slate guy....it'd be you... and i wouldn't be squabbleing over the priceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks for the vote of confidence on the slate and copper.
I think my point was that just pricing way high to drive them away might be just as bad as telling them not to call again. I suppose it differs with customers too- how big a PITA factor would there be.
Walter
ps I finally got the book off to Eric Paulson- thank you very much for your generosity
walter,
how high a price is a relative thing.
about 8 minutes from my house is a store that specializes in middle eastern foods.
i was in there early this week--bought pita bread----$1.50 per bag
for comparison---in todays dollars I could get $180-$220 to re-flash a single flue chimney in that neighborhood
A few days later--on the other side of town-- i was in a locally famous gourmet foods store---------Same bag of pita was almost $5.--in that neighborhood I can charge in the mid to high $400 to re-flash that same single flue chimney.
mt preferred neighborhood---one that has been my bread and butter for YEARS----single flue chimney usually in the mid $300's.
when i started out 18-19 years ago--I didn't realize that I actually NEEDED to take this into account.----I took a lot of pride in chargeing EVERYONE the same rate--reasoning If I used the same materials, same amount of time---Same price---it was only "fair"
I had no concept that chargeing $180 in the $470 neighborhood----would PREVENT me from working there---just as much as charging $470 in the $180 neighborhood.
If i charge 3 different people the same price-- 2 of them will think either I am ripping them off or that I am a fly by night hack who doesn't know what he is doing.
now--I am not very smart----but eventually i realized that I would rather be paid$350--than be paid$180----and that the $180 customers would prevent me from accomplishing what I wanted to in life.--my opportunity was the $350 customer who i slowly edge to $470.
as schelling points out---there are worse things in life than being thought a bit" too expensive"
and--as Mike surely knows----the time spent on the $180 customer---is not Equal to the time spent on the $470 customer.--for that difference in price---the customer is ENTITLED to a little hand holding, they are Entitiled to see some pictures of previous work, they are entitled to copies of any magazine article I have ever written, they are entitled to a newer model service truck in their driveway--------all of which are easier ways to earn--than humping shingles up a ladder.
how much is TOO MUCH is a relative thing
Hey----- I am planning to resume work on that slate roof monday morning----pictures to follow!!!
Best wishes, stephen
Stephen,
I agree with most of that post- very similar to how I view the way to determine my rates as well.
In that other post I thought you had said to just throw out a sky high number in hopes of having them not hire you. I thought that approach might lead to a customer that would not give good PR.
Looking forward to seeing more slate repair pictures. Our weather is shaping up this week. I'll be out on an Island -just below Piffins- putting in open copper valleys where closed,zinc flashed ones are worn thru.
Take care, Walter
Stephen
-and that the $180 customers would prevent me from accomplishing what I wanted to in life
I started out my self employment years in that lower end neighborhood. An old carp that had rental property down there used to tell me all the time, "you gotta get out of this neighborhood if you want to make it" he was right, the hood didnt have the kind of work nor the money to support my goals.
as schelling points out---there are worse things in life than being thought a bit" too expensive"
Same carpenter/GC from above used to tell me that he enjoyed the best reputation that you could have, "I was known to be expensive, but very good" he drove that into my head until it finally stuck.
We went through some hard times here in the 80's and he always told me that he never went without work. His reputation was that good and he always had all the work he wanted.
I often times wish that I had mentored under someone like him for about 10 years. I'd probably have more money and be retired!
Doug
I like the "never call me again" approach, except it has to be said a LOT nicer than that.
Because maybe just maybe that person would still recomend you or give a good reference to a friend of theres and that's probably a big maybe.
But to a customer when you say:
"I'm too busy," Then even though they still like you and your work, If a friend asks them who to call they're going to tell them don't bother with this guy he's way too busy.
And "Charging through the roof for them" has the same effect. Sooner or later they'll decide you are too expensive and tell their friends the same.Legal Disclaimer: The preceeding comments are for entertainment purposes only and are in no way to be construed as professional advice. The reader of these comments agrees to hold harmless the poster, EJCinc, from any and all claims that EJCinc offered professional advice, ideas, or comments to the reader that may or may not have resulted in the damage, injury, or death to the readers property or person.
I am with you.
I don't worry if the problem client spreads the work that you are expensive. That reputation will drive away more problem clients than anything else. That alone makes it worth it.
Lou,
I have been there, I try to be up front and honest on what I require as the craftsman from them. And if they agree with this I will do there work for them, if not then I don't.
Nailer
lou.. i like Stephen;s advice.. raise your price for finicky customers.. finicky customres require more time...
more time means more money....
the only caveat is if you get the impression that you won't get paid... then you have to think about working for them
along those lines...
i was talking to an old associate.. first time in about 20 years.. asking about a mutual customer
he said .. his policy is to get a deposit that covers the LAST payment... set it aside as a CREDIT
then he never has to worry about getting the "last payment"..
any thoughts on that ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
A few years ago starting out building a client base I'd take any and all clients. That sometimes included those turned down by others.
Sometimes these are great folks who are simply concerned about strange things or are otherwise quirky. Sometimes they were the devil.
One particular job only lasted a week, but was so horrible with confrontations starting at day one and continuing through the last battle over the invoice that I couldn't keep the blood money. Man o' man did we have a party...every last cent.
Then there was the nice ol' lady who reminded me a great deal of mother so I went above and beyond to fix her place. She was pleased as puddin' for a few weeks then went on vacation for a month only to return and find problems with everything and failed to pay. I was her 7th victim after a bad experience from the original GC. She was evening the score by cheating anyone in the business. Her larger assets were given to family except for those that couldn't be touched by the courts. Lawsuit proof, or rather collection proof.
Today if there is a hint of something strange I simply say that their job would be a better fit for another contractor and they would actually save money with someone less busy. It's the truth--partially because they would get the PITA risk adjusted rate.
Most jobs can be legitimately recommended to another type of contractor for one reason or another. Mostly I get a lot of thanks for suggesting someone that would better fit their project. I don't feel the least amount of guilt by letting them down gently. One GC I worked for would simply say the job isn't worth his time and hang up the phone or simply turn around and walk out. Strangers deserve more respect than that.
Once a job starts we stick with the bad ones until stress has the meat falling off our bones--much longer than any sane person would. Although each year it's much harder to be tollerant of client misbehaving.
Some clients ask us to jump extra high or kiss their hinney because of their line of work. For my entire professional finish carp career the primary clients have been DLC's (doctors, lawyers, and corporate managment) so the intimidation factor has worn off long ago. The vast majority of clients are just darn good people, so it's easy to see the bad apple for what they are.
Beware of the problem client.
Good building.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
because of their line of work......
I get quite a bit of that here in Silicon Valley. I'm in the databases of several high tech companies and get quite a bit of business from people at Google, Apple, Yahoo, etc.
Most of them are pretty impressed with themselves for making such big bucks at such a young age (some of them are even justified - lol) and sometimes get a little condesending to a guy old enough to be their grandfather.
If they overdo it, I find a way to tell them that I'm a former Nuclear Engineer and that I designed and built nuclear power plants all over the country. That usually changes their attitude in a hurry. - lol
Last year, one guy rather smugly informed me that he had just passed the Mechanical Engineering PE exam - and on the second try!! All the air went out of his balloon when I told him that I had passed that exam in 1980 (a year before he was born)...............and I passed on my first try. - lol.
All the air went out of his balloon when I told him that I had passed that exam in 1980 (a year before he was born)...............and I passed on my first try. - lol.
Now that's funny! You gotta love young professionals, but they have grown up watching too many fix it fast and cheap, and how to remodel in 7 days tv shows. As you probably know well the first major remodel or new house for a young couple can be rough on both contractor and client.
I was lucky enough to start my professional carpentry career in a market where carpentry, even being an employee carp, was a legitamet career option for anyone, including college bound kids. We were close to two universities so it was common to have a fairly large percentage of experienced carps with degrees of one kind or another. One summer all three of us finish carps had masters.
It was a good situation all around. Many kids that otherwise weren't headed to college because they considered themselves not good at school could see how they were just as bright as those of us who made it through. Hopefully we convinced at least a couple of guys to get into something that they like more than carpentry. They could always come back to carpentry.
It was also fantastic for the quality of carps and the trades across the board. When there's enough money in the trades it retains the best and brightest that otherwise would move on to other options.
Boise has had a tremendous tallent drain since the wages to get into the trades are so very low. The top end isn't bad, but the bottom and middle are terrible. A good laborer back home makes as much as many good quality carps here with the cost of living being quite comparable.
Good building.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Don -
I try to be somewhat gentle with those types 'cause I was pretty much the same at one time. I left MO in '65 as a semi-poor small town boy with a couple of years of college under my belt. (I was one of the first in my family to even graduate from high school.) By '75, I was a mid-level manager in a nuclear design and consulting firm and was on a track to senior management positions. Yeah, I was pretty full of myself, but my old man and some of his buddies were able to keep me from becoming completely obnoxious. - lol
There are quite a few people like me around here - folks who used to be in some kind of high-tech job who changed careers. In the mid-80's, I got laid off from a nuclear engineering job and worked for a former high-tech VP for about a year until I got another nuke job.
I tell the people im to busy, Then they have the strange feeling they cannot get me and makes me look better then a high price, If they go to there friends they cant say hes to high. Looking back though i have worked for some people i thought were nuts but loved me, Sometimes its hard to tell. One lady is the worst to work for around here, I patched her roof and figured out she was to much, She wanted me to do more but i told her i was to busy, She recommends me to everyone,2 hours with that lady was a lifetime. Another couple seemed real nice but starting fighting like cats and dogs trying to put me in the middle, It got so bad i picked up and left, Just when i think i got it figured out i find i dont have a clue, One guy wanted a roof ripped off, when i went there he had a string line over his grass, I asked what he was doing he said he wanted the grass growing straight, I imagined ripping off 3 layers of roof and trucks and helpers, i KNEW this guy was trouble
I do smaller projects (handyman-type work) and I had a great customer who wanted me to schedule 1 day a week into infinity. She paid top rates, got a check as I was leaving...but still, PITA stuff bugged me. She was a pack rat and would inevitably drag out a box of scrap wood that I should use to to build a headboard for a bed, or a bookcase. Yeah, right. The day I was on site was the day she was motivated to do stuff around her place herself - that meant helping herself to my tools. Or I was constantly cleaning up after other hacks she hired "to give them a break"....she was/is a real nice person but it was just unfullfilling work.
I finally cut the cord by getting "too busy" and then I finally told her most of my work was focused in my home town and with the high price of fuel I couldn't make the trek out to her place. She understood, and she still refers people to me that are closer than she is.
-Norm
I've tried quoting a really high price, problem is they take it and make your life miserable and in the long run on two jobs the de-moralization of my employees led to work slow downs that ate up the higher mark-up.
I have a few builders I know in town that I don't mind sending PITA clients to (for personal reasons)
Generally I just say I'm too busy and refer them to someone else or to the home builders association website.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I usually tell them I don't have room for them in the scedule. Sometimes I tell them I don't do that kind of work anymore.
There was one lady who kept after me asking for an estimate on an addition. This is a small town so I knew her and already knew she would be a major PITA - the kind who is never satisfied with anything - and I kept politely declining.
One day she confronted me in public demanding to know why I would not get an estimate done for her. She actually made an accusation that I only wanted the rich people's dollars and that was the reason I wasn't estimating for a poor old widow lady like her...
Since she had the nerve to do this in public I dressed her down! I told her that I charge just as much to poor old widow ladies asIdo to rich people so if she was expecting a grey hair discount she was oput to lunch. Then I told her bluntly that the reason I was not interested in working for her was that I knew I could not get along with her long enough to finish the job and that the last thing she needed was an unfinished addition.
Her jaw dropped, her eyes bugged out, the old bag swallowed her cud, then she said, "Well thank you for being honest with me, at least."
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Hi, I'm new to the group, and my name is Mike. I'm a painter.
As we speak, I just had a PITA customer play her little game. She calls me, gets a bid, and then at the last minute, she calls back and says I found someone who will do it for half of what you want. The only painters who will work for her now, are the un-licensed variety, and lord knows their are plenty of them these days here in California. I just keep raising the price , higher and higher, hopeing she will quit calling.
Mike
You don't need her.
If you already have to do the song and dance now with her, just think about all the other things that will come up as you're doing the job.
Almost always you can get a good bead on someone as to what kind of client they're going to be.
I don't usually try to compete price-wise with any other contractors, I just charge what I charge and leave it at that. If you have a good reputation it'll work out just fine, because people pay for peace of mind, just like a good dentist or auto mechanic. Everyone is happy, no one feels cheated, you do the work you want to do at the price you want, they get a great finished product.
If you're trying to build up a new business though, or work in a competitive market, you may have to take on a couple of clients that you wouldn't necessarily want to take just to get things rolling.
But for the most part I'd go with your gut on this. If you're bothered now, it ain't gonna go away.
Plus after she hires a budget rate painter and has to deal with cleaning up all the paint chips, masking tape, and soda cans, and deals with all her trampled plants, she'll come calling back your way in a few years.
I've developed a method for dealing with all homeowners. After agreeing on the scope of the work and the price, I tell them what they can expect from me and what I require of them. I write it down while we're talking and we both sign that simple agreement. It says that I'll be there every day with my crew until the job is completed. It says that the client will not interrupt the work for any reason, that they will write down any questions that arise and present them at the end of the day's work, when I ask for them.
I tell them that I need to focus all my attention on the work and my crew. I explain that it's a big shift of gears to stop work and be socially correct with a nice lady homeowner so please be patient and I'll gladly chat with you and your husband for as long as it takes, at the end of the work day. I've never had any problems with this approach, other than mildly offending women who want to play house, serve coffee and cookies every couple of hours. I've learned that being socially correct at the beginning and the end of the day, when that kind of courtesy is both appropriate and required, usually resolves a lot of issues before they can arise. It's particularly effective when the husband isn't real comfortable, going off to work and leaving his wife at home with several men. It lets him know that you're not going to be paying any attention to his wife, no matter how much she may want attention.
The end result; I have a reputation for being very professional but a little peculiar. I can live with that. It helps me avoid the PIA clients and it gets me paid on time, every time.
Other than that, I refuse to work for lawyers. The bad ones are really bad news.
Edited 3/11/2007 2:01 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Ya Know - I've had five lawyer clients on big jobs and gotten paid for all of it.They are more detail oriented and slow payiong than most clients, but the big headaches for me - as a class - have been doctors. They don't really seem to know what they want 'till after it's done...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As for pricing, charge what ever you can get no price is to high as long as their willing to pay and you still stay busy. I know lots of guys that charge higher prices when they don't want the work sometimes they get it sometimes they don't. Your not ripping anybody off if your clear about the service being offered your just getting what your services are apparently worth to one person. Why is a 19?? penny made in ???? worth a thousand bucks to one guy and it's just a penny when in you're pocket? 25$ to put up a piece of crown here I'll rent you my chop saw for an hour so you can do it your self, 750$ ya let me call my afternoon appointment to tell them I running late.
I've had some excellent lawyer clients too but after the second nasty one I called it quits with the whole bunch. They are taught debating tricks to use when questioning people in court, how to imply character flaws without ever making a direct accusation. Being lawyers, they also carry an air of authority so when they offer an underhanded innuendo/opinion about a tradesman, it has some weight.
Just a warning to tread lightly, think ahead, and have your own lawyer represent you in contract negotiations. I just prefer to avoid the whole lot of them.
Only one doctor caused me some lost time, nothing more. I took a small risk, doing a wealthy eye surgeon a timely favor, in hopes that he'd remember and pay back in due time. He apparently saw that incident as him getting over on me.
That's the risk you take, even when you make it clear that you're providing a freebie as a means to open other doors.
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" Shakespeare
HVC , One buddy of mine who mostly builds log homes and does general construction work has written into his contracts that the homeowner is not allowed at the building site between 7am and 7pm .
works for him , has eliminated much un productive time
dusty