howdy all,
my wife and i found some prefinished hardwood flooring at HD and at Lowes that we liked…..and by liked, i mean liked the color. are these reputable places to buy flooring? we’re homeowners and want to put in our own “real” flooring without having to sand/stain/finish it ourselves. in searching the posts, it seems that satisfaction with Lumber liquidators is patchy at best, so we were wondering if anyone had any suggestions for a flooring source that is accessible to us?
thanks everyone,
john
Replies
It is frequently brand dependant at either Lowes or HomeDepot.
I have bought engineered wood flooring from both of them. Some "house" brand stuff seen no where else, and some name brand. The name brand stuff seems to be of a slightly better quality overall than their house brands.
A word of caution on the colored prefinished floors. Most I have seen use a tinted finish to achieve the color, as opposed to staining the wood. Dark toned maple flooring is still maple under the color, and if you scratch it, it is very difficult to make a good repair on.
good to know,thanks. i am planning on using solid wood, not engineered.....i think i wrote that.
I bought Anderson/Bruce 3.5" x 3/4 Oak "Gunstock". My suggestion, plan on a LOT of time if you install it your self. I am still fighting the product. If you hire it out plan on spending quite a bit more to have a pro lay it if you can find one who will touch it.
My first order that I bought almost two years ago stacked in boxes in my house for almost a year because of a kitchen remodel when I went to use it was warped in every direction and varied in width as much as a 1/8" or more between boards. I raised hell with Lowes and got it replaced, they admitted that A/B had a problem with milling green wood and was improperly dried.
They replaced the wood this spring and I am continuing to fight this crxp . My new batch they told me was not supposed to vary by more than 1-2 mm in width, well guess what that's a bunch crxp. I used a digital micrometer and sorted into piles, I also use a simple folding rule with the brass inset slider that works well for gaging width as well. With the old stock I had 9 sorted piles, with the new I am down to only four so far. I have only went through about 1/4 of my pile of flooring.
Another caveat, they tell you they will only take back wood that is in the box but yet they tell you you must open the boxes and let the wood acclimate to the room for at least (I think) a month or more before you lay it. You need to stack it, I used the shorts to go crosswise across the pile. Save your boxes, you may need them.
I have to sort every piece carefully looking for any damage, then by width. It took me about 4 hours to lay out and nail down three rows 18' long (working by my self) , even then I had to use colored putty, the soft kind that you can mix together to get the desired color, find this at good woodworking stores, (they do mention this in their enclosed booklet) to fill a few cracks between the boards. I should of been able to nail down half the remaining floor in that time.
BTW you will want to make sure you keep the humidity at 30-50% otherwise it will shrink after its laid. I am using the Bostich big flooring stapler as well.
It does look pretty good laid out but a major pita.
If I wanted solid hardwood floor again I would definitely go with unfinished and then fill the cracks with the proper putty and call in a pro to finish. Much, Much faster.
Jim
yikes!
how much of your problems do you equate to the manufacturer? would you have had the same issues with others?thanks for the info
I haven't had any experience with any other manf. I am a woodworker, diy'er, owner builder but laid a fair amount of pergo type click lock and glue down flooring and tile work. Never expected/experienced this type of mess before.
One suggestion, if you can get the flooring person you are dealing with to put it in writing (which I doubt they will do) that the flooring width will not vary between boards and that you can get your money back if it does AFTER it is acclimated to the local environment for a month or two then go for it.
I did check the wood at the store and the half dozen boxes (out of 35) I opened up did seem pretty much to be very close to the same size. Two months later when I am ready to use it, it isn't. I know that wood moves and depending on what the grain run is it will shrink and swell differently and my lack of humidity up here in the far frozen north is a problem.
In retrospect I am a little unfair towards the manf. as there is a chance that the width problem is more of my environment and not the manf. variance between mills that produced the boards. It is curious though that it seems to be more of a variance between boxes. I took the wood out of each box and stacked it in a 3x8 pile and each box makes about a 3" stack and I noticed that most of the boards in each stack are more or less close. Whereas some of the boards further down may be +- from the top boards. Like I was saying I sorted what I am using at any one time (not much space to stack stuff) and "only" have four different piles so far.
Width variance will really screw up a floor, espically if you are working fairly fast and the first board you grab to start your run does not match the next board you have automatically a built in gap. The next row will look even worse. Don't do like I did and try to plane down the difference as the edge has a slight bevel and if you plane it off you will have a sharp edge to deal with. You can however plane the ends to get a square butt joint which is sometimes required. Make double darn sure you start you row out perfectly stright. I didn't and now almost every board has to be beveled on the end slightly.
BTW don't ask how I know but a Fine multi-master tool can make short work of taking up a board (s) that are stapled down. Hell on the blades but works quickly and you can salvage the entire board. You haven't lived until you are just pounding away and have the hose catch the stapler just right or bumped something and drive a staple through the top of a board.
If you prep your subfloor properly and follow directions you can do it. Plan on spending a lot of time doing it though. In my case I have more time than money so I consider it part of my daily workout regimen.
Good luck and I hope it works well for your installation.
Jim
i have a MM, another use! whoo hoo!
good info all, thank you
Bought about 1200' of Bruce from Lowes 3 years ago. I couldn't glue because of old cutback adhesive and couldn't staple due to concrete so I floated and glued the T&G's.
Haven't hd one problem yet and as for that so called drum sound, don't hear it. I worried about a lot of the same things you are but none have happened.
Take your time get a good pair of knee pads and a helpfull assistant and it will be fine.
Thanks, I appreciate the advice. Yes I did buy a good set after using some not so good ones, makes a big difference. Sorted boards and got four runs down yesterday afternoon, went well. I work fairly slowly as it is. Only got about 10' to go. Should wrap it up next week or so. Got to build the tile surround in front of the fireplace next to size my flooring up to the finish border before I can go much farther.
If I had a reliable son in law I would have a helper. Asked him to presort boards and surprise surprise he found out he other things to do <G> (This is my live in board board certified lawyer that has lived with us for the past year.) Told him some day he will earn his keep. Supposed to be helping me remove a deck this afternoon, we will see if he is around.
Jim
What a nightmare. I wouldn't give up on pre-finished floors though, just change manufacturers. I've laid a fair amount. The best was the Mirage, but never had any real problems with other brands. Acclimatization is seldom a problem, it is already kiln dried. I'm not very fast, but by myself I'd be disappointed if I couldn't finish a 14'x14' room in a day.
Thanks Fingers, pretty much the worst is over and now I am 3/4 or so done. Have a day job as well so I can't work full time on the floor.
I am a contract tech. at a FAA ARTCC site until Oct. then I get to do something else. (Wife says I can't plan on not working). Might take a union job in the fall or spring when they open up.
Jim
Good to know there is an end in sight. Most jobs are a hard enough without the headaches of having to mess around compensating for poor materials.
And I do whatever my wife says too.
Amen to that
Jim
" Better feel, can be resanded more times, will add to resale more than engineered. "
Not necessarily. Using something like Owens Plank, an unfinished engineered with a 3/16" wear layer (opposed to 1/4" for solid--above the tongue and groove) will have many not being able to tell the difference.
Forget the home centers. Try Jeff at Hosking Hardwood. His prices kill Lowes & Depot and freight is suprisingly cheap if you're in the northeast. Mercier, Lauzon, and Muskoka are a few more good Canadian names if you're determined to go with solids.
http://www.hoskinghardwood.com/7/Hardwood_Floors.aspx
Talisker's problems with the solid wood, might get you rethinking the engineered wood alternative to solid wood.
The engineered wood is plywood with a hardwood top surface. The problems he has had with shrinkage, and warping don't occur with the engineered woods.
For a do it your self project the engineered wood is lots easier to deal with. A dedicated stapler and a good miter saw make it quick and easy to lay. There are dedicated staplers for it that go for $100 or so used on ebay. When your done sell the stapler on ebay for $100.
I have a brother and a cousin who do hardwood floors. Dad installed it when I was little. I remember scraping the joints with a scraper plane, when I was about six. I grew up around hardwood flooring.
For the amateur the engineered floor is lots easier to get a quality result with.
Doing it your self, you can install it for about what good carpet costs. The finish is hard as nails, and should last for ten to fifteen years. It then can be sanded and refinished, or pulled up and redone.
used to do some framing and commercial building, so i kinda know my way around tools. i've just not done flooring before.to be honest, feels as if engineered flooring is a shortcut, not sure why i feel that way, but yes, talisker has me re-thinking engineered flooring. really, until today, the only thing i was concerned about was finishing, not "laying".thanks for the thoughts
hmmm. still not sure why engineered flooring.....you know one of those perception things i suppose.i'll get over it :)
Well laid engineered flooring is solid and hard to tell from full thickness hardwood.
An edge glued floating installation, with the thinner material has the same drum head quality I hate about Pergo and the laminates.
The 1/2 or 9/16-inch thick, 3-inch width, materails that are edge stapled don't have the drummy sound. Unless it is one of the bevel edge products, it is next to impossible to tell from a solid hardwood floor. Particularly if you put a good coat of paste wax down on it.
oh, that's interesting hadn't thought of the "sound".so stapled engineered flooring,not edged glued for good sound attenuation, or "more real wood like" sound is that what you're saying?hey thanks, this is the kind of info i needed
Yes, the floating floors have that drum noise, (now that you know you will hear it every time).
When they are stapled to the subfloor they don't sound any different than a solid hardwood floor.
The first few I was around, I didn't like, because they sounded drummy. And I hate the laminate flooring because all of it I've ever walked on has the drum sound.
My brother finally showed me a stapled installation, when we were deciding what to do Mom's house in, and I liked it. I really liked that five of us could finish up 2100-sf in a long weekend.
Mom's is 10-hrs from my brother's place, and 12-hrs from my house. So the younger brother took her shopping for the flooring, and got help moving her furniture into the garage, and pulling all the base molding off. We blew in Thursday night, started Friday by pulling up the old carpet and tack strip. We got started on flooring after lunch Friday, were done Sunday in time to clean up and take Mom out for dinner, and drove home Monday.
Took the younger brother another week to put the base back on, and get the furniture back in.
I'm not a floor installer but I have installed a decent amount of Bruce hardwood flooring from HD and Lowes.
I've installed full thickness prefinished stapled down.
the thinner engineered as a glue down ... and most recently the bruce click-lock stuff.
Haven't had any major problems.
better brands do have nicer milling ... but I've never run into something so warped it couldn't be used.
what have you found that you like so far?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
what do i like?i've seen literally dozens of manufacturers, mannington, kahrs, bruce, etc. and i wonder if the difference relates to tolerances, moisture management, does the wood come from plain sawn, quarter sawn, etc. it's difficult to judge without the experience. course, i could be MASSIVELY overthinking :)one of the reasons that i was considering the "big boxes" was that i can go and touch the product. is there a "better brand" at these?what does "nicer milling" mean in this context?thanks very much,john
you shold be able to touch the product at a flooring company's show room. If you're going to have extremely high expectations from the finish product I wouldn't bother with BBs and look more towards flooring companies.
I agree 100% with what you guys say about using the larger discounters. Unfortuanately up here in the far frozen north we are pretty much limited t what ever the local stores feel like handling. The non stock special orders are a killer for freight. Of course everybody feels it but when your talking 3-5 thousand miles it makes really good quality hardwood flooring darn near cost prohibitive.
Thanks again though for all your good comments. Now that I am blessed with 20-20 hindsight I will be much more selective.
Jim
We've installed prefinished flooring from Lowes, HD, and pro suppliers. I've never noticed any difference regarding where the flooring was purchased from.
Ultimately, my advice would be to buy what you like, but do not expect a prefinished floor to look like a site finished floor. You are always going to have some discrepancies, they're easily dealt with site finished and left as is with prefinished. That's just the nature of the two types.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Solid hardwood quality these days make it tough to install well - give engineered wood serious consideration.
No you won't get as many refinishes, but with a quality engineered wood (think Thomasville) it'll be a heck of a long time before that's an issue.
Finishes: you get what you pay for: the finishes are the same (poly w/ aluminum oxide) the thicknesses aren't
With solid wood, check carefully into the grade - cheaper often means "tavern grade" with higher waste, more knots and checks and still tougher to get straight pieces to ease the installation battle.
Remember Mary Dyer, a Christian Martyr (Thank you, Puritans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Dyer
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
I never recommend using H.D. or lowes for anything other than as a basic hardware store. I've been burned too many times. Their quality is usually less than what you can find elsewhere for the same price unless you're looking for low end stuff. DO your homework first.
I'd go with solid wood flooring. Better feel, can be resanded more times, will add to resale more than engineered. You're not the only one who thinks engineered is a lesser choice regardless of how true that might actually be.
I would suggest checking out the prefinished choices available at your local flooring stores. The Bruce et al choices from the big box stores come with lots of shorts (less than 18" long) that will make installation harder and will look bad (IMHO). The higher quality flooring manufacturers include less shorts in the boxes and pay more attention to QC on the milling side.
For a choice that's not too costly, but still nicer than what's available at the big box stores, check out Somerset; or for really nice stuff at a higher price, Muskoka.
I wish I had read this before I put mine down. I used Bruce, from a big box store. Way too many shorts! The pieces fit nicely, and the kneepads saved my life. I had help for one day, and learned that two prople can work 3 times as fast as 1.
I am not happy with the Bruce finish. We have it in the kitchen, and there are many scrapes from kitchen chairs, etc; and many dents from dropped canned goods.
If I touch up the scratches, what can I put over the surface to resist future scratches?
Scratches are an issue and using it in the kitchen opens up another can of worms. I don't sugest to my clients to do this but after I explain it to them if they still insist then thats what they get. I'm using tile in mine tho.
As for the flooring I have protectors on the bottom of all my chairs. For protection as well as my DW's taste we have persian rugs.
The other comment about shorts when laying, while that can be an issue, a good helper, racking the pieces can mitigate that issue.
A small job might not allow for enough boxes of special order flooring from the big boxes to work around the shorts issue. My area was over a 1000 sqft and we opened all the boxes first and numbered them according to length then shuffled the order. This was a bit of work but my help came through for me and the floors look great.
Touching up the scratches in a prefinished floor can be a fine art. Use a chunk of spare wood (you saved some I hope) to test your technique.
There's nothing in the world that will save your floor from a dropped can of soup, etc. As for scratches, that's also a fact of life. Felt pads under everything is helpful, as is making folks drop their shoes to avoid scratches from small pebbles tracked in.
The biggest issue I have with prefinished floors is that while the zinc oxide content used by many allows for a harder finish, scratches that do happen show up white. With dark finishes, this can make scratches far more obvious than with an onsite finish.
Did you check Lumber Liquidators? Bellawood.
LL? You're kidding right? LL's quality is no better than the big box stores, and their service is worse.
Moreover, they're actively selling hardwoods under a range of made up species names that actually originated in South America and Asia. In other words, rainforest trees. From their 10k:
"In 2006, approximately 30% of our product was sourced from Asia, approximately 24% was sourced from South America, approximately 35% was sourced from North America and 11% was sourced from other locations."
So in other words 35% US and Canada, 65% somewhere else.
IMHO - No thanks LL.
So, who's got the good stuff?
The good stuff can be found at dedicated flooring dealers who typically rep only a few suppliers, not dozens or hundreds like LL.
I've been buying recently from a local dealer who reps Somerset, Muskoka, Mirage, and only a couple others. They'll sell you some cheap Mohawk if you have to have it, but I suspect it's just there for comparison's sake. Oh, and they typically do all the installs themselves, so avoidance of callbacks always comes into play in rep'ing better brands.
I have found that with flooring, like most everything, you get what you pay for. It's hard to justify double the price until one uses the cheap #### with bad milling, zillions of shorts and lousy QC on the finishes. Then you wish you'd paid the money for the better product.
Edited 5/13/2008 9:10 am ET by WindowsGuy
Thank You for the feed back.
Are you really a Windows Guy? Where do you work out of?
Mac, Windows, 220, 221, whatever it takes. Like so many people on this board, I have dabbled in many areas and claim to be expert in few. I do know a bit about windows and would love to sell you a $2000 Marvin mistake of mine still sitting in my garage. But, no I am not a window installer or dealer. :-)
I am out standing in my field in Naperville, IL.
Say, be sociable, fill out your profile.
I'm in Massachusetts.
Current gas prices probably make a long commute out of the question.