Hi all
I have poor water pressure in my house.
And alot of silt in the water from my well.
After all the filtering the pressure is even worse.
And yes, it was checked by a plumber and a well installer.
I want to add a pressure pump to increase the house pressure, but I think I need a storage tank also.
I have a perfect spot for the tank, but not alot of overhead room. So, maybe two smaller tanks.
I was thinking also that the tanks w0ould allow the silt to settle to the bottom and improve things, allowing me to use less filtering.
Would two tanks work? Will this idea for settling work on the silt?
Any idea how much storage is needed to make a pressure pump work?
This is a one family home (wife and myself, no kids) tho my wife has a big garden she waters in the summer.
I’m getting ready to redo the bathroom and this would be the perfect time to do this work along with it.
Any help and advice here would be greatly appreciated.
(A small aside: no one local seems to have any ideas about this, which is kind of surprising.)
Jeff
Replies
Sounds like you have NO tank at all now?
A 40 gal pressure bladder tank will do OK for the pressure part.
Settling of silt - if the particles are heavy enough to settle, you will fill you tank in no time, you need to filter before the bladder tank.
On own house, built a filter for fine sand using a piece of 4" PVC pipe stuffed with old panty hose. You should be able to buy a large paper element filter that would remove silt.
Sorry
I have the typical deep well with pump outside and a bladder type pressure tank in the basement.
That goes to a sand filter and then a typical cartridge filter before it goes to the house plumbing.
The garden silcock is before the filters (why filter garden water?), but still has poor pressure..
I don't know how many gallons the pressure tank is offhand, but its about 4 ft high and is a bladder type. The well guy just checked it a few months ago, when we replaced the well pump.
Tell me more about this pantyhose style filter you use, I'm exploring all options.
Jeff
The system pressure is directly controlled by the pump pressure switch. Do you know what yours is set at? Most come pre-set at 30-50 or 40-60. Mine is at 40-60 and pushes water about 50 vertical feet above the tank elevation. I find it is adequate. There are people around here that set theirs at 50-70 too.Changing pressure is easy. First you inflate the bladder to two PSI less than the CUT-IN pressure (in my case 38 PSI), then you adjust the screw on your switch (read the directions... be sure to adjust the right screw). Open a tap and watch the pump cycle on and off as you adjust.How often do you find the cartridge needs to be replaced? I can notice reduced pressure after about a month to two months in my case.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
First the irrigation water should be tapped off before any filtering.
To let silt settle out of the water you need large tanks and they need to be arranges so that the inflow and outflow does not disturbe the what settles out.
Ordinary pressure tanks fail both requirements. In fact they would stir up the mud each time that water is used.
My guess is that you have the wrong type and/or size of filtering SYSTEM.
While I don't know about them to know if they work or not or to suggest a unit but there are for example centrifical filters that can be self purging. Some thing like that might be used to remove the bulk. Then a coarse filter, then a fine filter.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill
I posted just a moment ago the system set up currently.
Tell me more about this centrifigal filter.
Jeff
This will get you started.http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/filters.htmYou will probably need to have an anlysis of the size of particals that you have.http://www.valveandfilter.com/centrifugalfilters.htmhttp://www.pepfilters.com/I really don't any more about these."The garden silcock is before the filters (why filter garden water?), but still has poor pressure."Then you have other problems. It is not a filter problem (or in addition to a filtering problem).You have the wrong pump, the pump is setting in silt at the bottom of the well or you have restriction in the line.The first thing to do is to get a pressure guage and adapter to hose bib. If you don't already have a spare pressure guage you can get one already setup with the hose bib connector for about $10 at the home horror stores. If they are not in the main plumbing section look by the pumps or by the water heaters.And get a Y fitting for the hose bib.Then we can get some real numbers..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I would never use a bladder tank as a settling tank. Maybe something more like a water heater tank, where the outlet exits from the top.
Keep in mind that you'll need a way to clean the tank out....
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I wonder if moving the inlet and/or pump in your well would help. Get it up off the bottom of the well, and a lot of the sediment might settle out in the well itself.
A: Because he didn't make any of the right turns.
Maybe some more information would be helpful to those who respond:
Sounds to me like your well pump may be too close to the bottom of your well, thus it sucks up silt. I'd check that first.
You say you are thinking of adding a storage tank. Do you mean a tank just to hold water before it's pressurized by your proposed new pressure pump? Or are you referring to bladder type pressure tanks only?
I'd suggest that you add a storage tank of minimum 300 gallons (or two that add up to min. 300gal, but more storage is better IMO). Put a paper sediment filter in the line before the storage tank. Have the well pump controlled by a float switch in the storage tank and not by any pressure switch. (I buy replacement filters by the half dozen for a good price online)
Then run the line to your new pressure pump and on to a bladder type pressure tank.
As others have said, you will need to set your system to a pressure that's satisfactory to you. How old is your supply plumbing? Could also be lots of gunk in the pipes if they are old and this has been going on for years.
Good luck!
OK
Let's see, I have always had poor pressure, ok to use, but not great.
I've always had silt.
The house is now 24 years old, I built it in 1984.
I had the well guy come back after a few months (in 1984) and raise the pump 50 ft off the bottom of the shaft and add a filter cover to the pump.
The well is 275 ft deep.
I then added a cartridge filter to the line.
A few months later I added the sand filter to the line between the pressure tank and the cartridge filter.
I change the cartridge filter once a month.
The house pressure dropped even more and drops like a lead balloon when the cartridge filter starts to clog up. (I use 5 microns)
The pressure switch is set the highest it will go to 40lbs.
When the pump failed, I had a new one installed, a new pressure switch and guage and the system checked. (Still 40 lbs).
I have no flow restrictors on any faucets or showers and clean the heads every now and then.
While the well has alot of water (almost overflowing), I still have poor pressure and flow. You can't shower and water the garden at the same time, or do laundry.
I was thinking that the holding tank and pressure pump would solve my problem for pressure and flow amounts.
I talked to someone who runs a water treatment plant and said they use a settling tank to reduce silt.
So, I was wondering if maybe this would also help me if I added the storage tank.
Or maybe a few tanks in series. I have a space 4ft high, 4 ft deep and 11 ft wide, which will be under the bathroom extension I'm adding.
I didn't think you could increase the water pressure with a presure pump alone, that you needed a tank also.
I have a pressure guage floating around here somewhere, I'll post the numbers when I find it.
That's the story.
Jeff
Sediment takes a LONG time to settle out. I don't think a small tank or three would do much of anything. Maybe an old water heater with the dip tube removed. But, man, it would be heavy if it filled up with stuff and you couldn't flush it out of the drain valve...
Actual size *doesn't* matter. It's how big you can convince her it is that matters.
>>>The pressure switch is set the highest it will go to 40lbs.Is that the cut-in pressure or cut-out? If it's the cut-out then that's your problem! This would mean that the pump is coming on at around 20 PSI and shutting off at 40 PSI. You can buy pressure switches at most hardware stores if you're in a rural area. They're quite inexpensive and if you've got basic plumbing and electrical skills you can swap one in less than half and hour.Just don't torque it too tight!! Most use a 1/4" pipe thread and you can easily split your tank Tee.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Jeff, there are wells around here that generate so much debris as to make them functionally worthless, clogs filters. Solution here is to try another drilling spot.
For your pressure, you could change switches.
Due to incredibly poor advice from a drilling service company I originally had 0-30 psi at my house, with my switch turned all the way up. Not much chance of a successful shower.
I now run my pump 80-100 psi, works great. Gives me 30-50 at the house, after a 50 psi drop (due to elevation). 100 psi is about the upper limit for bladder tanks and reduces their effective size. So I bought the largest, not that you couldn't use 2. My switch wasn't available locally, went to Grainger for one. Rather than risk a supply problem, I stock a spare (under 15 bucks).
BTW, I get at least 6 mos between sediment filter changes, but I bought the largest one there too, takes 2 cartridges. You already know when I get my change-the-filter request.
What are your pipes? Settling tank(s) will work, if a PITA. Figure the cost of the tanks installed, and the extra pump.PAHS works. Bury it.
Before changing the pressure switch he need to use a guage and see whatthe pump will deliver."100 psi is about the upper limit for bladder tanks and reduces their effective size. "Mine will leak at 120, but it is self healing.My I have shallow jet that I use for irrigation. And to start the system in the spring I fill the line and tank from my city water which runs about 110-120 psi.I got distracted and let it built up to full pressure and water was spraying out around the bladder fittings.But after reducing the pressure it never leaked another drop..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>>>Before changing the pressure switch he need to use a guage and see whatthe pump will deliver.If his well is 275 feet deep then he must be using a submersible pump which typically can generate 300+ PSI (scary).>>>Mine will leak at 120, but it is self healing.Cool. But how the heck does that work?When I changed our switch from 30/50 to 40/60 there was a very noticeable difference. I might even go 50/70 someday, but that would be the limit.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I should have worded that better. No one cares about what the pump will deliver. It was the system will deliver. We need to know max static pressure that can be delivered at the house.Deep well pumps have multiple stages and need to be matched to the head."Cool. But how the heck does that work?It is just a flange that clamps downn the rubber blader. With enough pressure it can't hold it tighten enough that water leaks past it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No one cares about what the pump will deliver.
It was the system will deliver.
Good that you clarified that. But if the pressure's inadequate (whatever that might be) a solution is higher switch pressures. No problem for the pump.
You're correct, pumps are designed for certain max heads. Grundfos is very conservative in their recommendation. I did replace my original pump with one recommended for the higher head, but there was no difference in immediate performance.
There's often a trade-off between max pump head and flow.PAHS works. Bury it.
OK OK All
Let me ask a few questions and say something.
I can ask the pump guy to raise the it some-more, but he thought that it wouldn't help much (I did ask).
What do you mean by the "Head"? I have the coupling in the well shaft about 8 or 10 feet down. Is this it or are you referring to the Pressure tank set-up in the basement? Or the height of the water above the pump?
The switch cuts in at 20 and off at 40lbs.
I can easily buy a new pressure switch at the supply house or get it from my well guy.
I think I have the largest pressure tank available locally, but don't know alot about them.
Will my pressure tank leak or blow out from the higher pressure? And is it something to not worry about.
Should I be thinking of replaceing it or adding a second one? Or both? I didn't know you could do that.
I can easily add more cartridge filters, is putting them in parrallel a good idea to increase flow?
I'm not to sure the sand filter is really doing much.
No one around here seems to know anything about them. I put one in on advice from a friend years ago. It's a pain to use, as the back-wash system is kinda lousy.
Is the tank and pressure pump even a good idea or a waste of time and money?
As for the pipes, 3/4" copper, except the drops to fittings are 1/2".
Jeff
Edited 7/18/2008 4:31 pm ET by Sardog
Edited 7/18/2008 4:33 pm ET by Sardog
Edited 7/18/2008 4:36 pm ET by Sardog
>>>The switch cuts in at 20 and off at 40lbs.That's the lowest setting I've heard of. I disagree with your "well guy".>>>Will my pressure tank leak or blow out from the higher pressure? And is it something to not worry about.They last a long time. I've been running mine at 40-60 for eight years without issue. Sounds like Bill has cranked his up to over 100 PSI (ballsy guy).>>>Should I be thinking of replaceing it or adding a second one? Or both? I didn't know you could do that.They aren't cheap. I added a large second tank this year that was given to me. A larger tank simply lessens the amount of cycling on and off that the pump does because there is more water pushed out by the bladder before the tank needs to be refilled. Larger tanks and more tanks don't do anything to give you more pressure.>>>I'm not to sure the sand filter is really doing much.Me either, but changing a cartridge every month is no big deal. I'd be inclined to get rid of the sand filter.>>>Is the tank and pressure pump even a good idea or a waste of time and money?You mean tank and pressure switch? Yes you need all of those components if you're gonna have a well.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Scott
I was referring to a storage tank and pressure pump.
I know I need a pressure switch on the current tank.
I could be wrong on the low setting.
I still not sure of the term "Head".
I think the article was taking about usable (available) water.
Jeff
Head is just another way of defining pressure. The name comes from the use elevated, atmospheric storage tanks.The Head is the different in height between the elevation of the level in the tank and the elevation of the user.1 ft = .433 psi.So if the level of the water is 250 ft below ground and the 2 nd floor of the house is 50 higher then the ground at the well the pump has a total head of 300 ft or 130 psi.That is just to get 1 drop of water to the facuet.You need more pressure to signficant flow..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>>>I think the article was taking about usable (available) water.Huh? When I click on the link I get a PDF document that is a tutorial on different well issues including head calculation. Here's the table of contents:1. Different types of pump systems
2. Three important characteristics of a pump system: pressure, friction and flow
3. What is friction in a pump system
4. Energy and head in pump systems
5. Static head
6. Flow rate depends on elevation difference or static head
7. Flow rate depends on friction
8. How does a centrifugal pump produce pressure
9. What is total head
10 What is the relationship between head and total head
11. How to determine friction head
12. The performance or characteristic curve of the pump
13. How to select a centrifugal pump
Examples of total head calculations - sizing a pump for a home owner application
14. Examples of common residential water systems
15. Calculate the pump discharge pressure from the pump total headIf you're interested I could email it to you. On the other hand, Bill explained it too.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Got it
I've seen "head" used for different things, so now I'm on the same page.
I still need to figure out the best way to go.
Hopefully I'll have some pressure readings to post tomarrow afternoon.
jeff
Can you disconnect the pipe close to the well head and turn on the pump and let it run for a day? This is what my driller said to do to clean out the well. Is the well fully lined? could be some sloughing .
change the gauge to a stainless steel liquid filled one before you do anything else
i have wasted a lot of time on customers water supplys before i got onto the liquid filled guages , & then i knew what i was dealing with for pressuure
never had to replace a stainless liquid filled one in 30 years
>>>Can you disconnect the pipe close to the well head and turn on the pump and let it run for a day?LOL, you're bringing back memories for me. When we first installed the well pump I let it run for an afternoon with nothing but an 1.25" hose stuck out the door. It looked like it was pumping spaghetti sauce for the first two hours; red lumpy clay. The sediment we get is still this color, but it's only sediment, not chunky soup.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I let it run for an afternoon
Did that too when I drilled my well deeper. First few days it literally pumped out over a cubic yard of fine black sand. Pulled the jet up 4 feet after that and then clear water.
Oh, BTW, for those who wonder how you can pump a cubic yard of sand out of a well in a couple of days - 450 gpm custom built jet pump run off a car engine, 3"&2" feed pipe down 8" casing.
Edited 7/19/2008 8:58 am ET by junkhound
I think that's a little out of my relm.
Jeff
Yes, to increase pressure with an inline pump you'd have to have a pressure tank, too.If the static level of the water in the well is so high, it might still help to raise the well pump more.I like the tanks-in-line notion, but if they are open topped you may get bacterial contaminants dropping in and if they aren't open topped it could be interesting to clean out the sediment.
I built a filter simular to junkhound's. Mine was only 2" pvc and I used nylon scouring pads for the filter element. The homeowner has been happy with it for eight years. She knows when to clean it - pressure and volume drop off. I also place a drip tube just in front of the element so excess stuff had a place to fall. The lady can clean it out by herself in ten minutes and only needs to do it two or three times a year.
I meant to mention....Here's a site that explains "well head".
http://www.lightmypump.com/images/tutorial/tutorial.pdf
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”