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My two cents worth. Location, Upstate NY. I would be a fool not to use decay resistant materials against concrete. Old homes here often enough have dry rotted sills...rim joists and more.
As to what to do...Sill seal, one brand is a closed cell foam. It alone is not enough for our area inspectors. I agree and for a million reasons. Number one reason...PT wood is very inexpensive...and I use it for much of my work. Decks, docks, boathouses, fence posts. The chemicals in it are not Love Canal II. Arsenic in low doses has even been used as medicine and more.
Lastly...concrete moves tons of water with out any visible sign. If it rains where you build, and your concrete is in contact with the Earth, then your concrete is moving water through it. I build home to last centuries. PT is the right price, the right product, and will do a righteous job for me at least.
near the PT Barnum stream,
aj
*Brush creosoted heart cedar sills rotted out in pump house 15 years ago after about 15 years in place, replaced with PT, PT still like new, often damp. Also, a No. Carolina U. study/test determined that Arsenic leaching was not a concern, and I still have most my hair. Is this a trick question?
*AJ posted 2nd as I did first, so apparently not a trick question. My 30 YO deck has some rot(the ones with sapwood on the edges) on about 1 of 10 penta soaked D fir 2x12 planks (soaked 1 day in 1/10 mix in old cut/welded waterheater trough) . Have been replacing with PT as needed. PT looks to be the only EPA available choice right now, unless you socked away 55 gal of Penta in the 70's.
*Aj,
View Image "The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Anyone have any experience with borate treated lumber? Comments?
*the power company in my area is treating all the utility poles with borates. I spoke with the crew doing it in my neighborhood, and they said it is just another precaution to avoid rot. they commented that it is in use in new zealand and australia for years. they are drilling 1" holes and pumping it in. it is for bugs and for rot.
*>Lastly...concrete moves tons of water with out any visible sign. Yup, concrete is kinda like a very hard sponge. Check out:http://www.xypex.comIt might be interesting to try in a foundation in a wet location.-- J.S.
*Lunch at the dump, Walked up to a bundled pile of wood. It was to be framed into a home. I asked, "where's the green wood?" "What green wood?", came the reply. The sills have to be PT. (Back then we used the trade nameWolmanized.) That was the early 70's. Bergen County, N.J. And so it goes. Different strokes...but I gots to comply. Dan-O
*I understand your point about the low toxicity of PT however, if there is an inexpensive alternative I prefer to use that. My choice was Tamarck, however if I couldn't find tamarck I'd use white oak or some other naturally decay resistant wood. If you order it direct from a mill in large enough quanity your cost is $.30 bd. ft. A 2x12x16ft white oak will cost $9.60 at the mill. Now I know you can't use it in salt water because of worm borers, but in most other applications it's at least as good as PT for durability and a whale of a lot less expensive. The wonderful thing is that there is zero impact on our enviornment. Sure getting it at a good price will require a little change in your thinking, but it's available. Or you can just be lazy and continue ordering PT from the lumberyard.
*Frenchy, your prices are making us left coast dwellers jealous again, I'd build with walnut siding at some of the prices you get. Wholesale rough 8/4 oak out here is at least $3 bf, the nearest mill with white oak is probably over 1000 miles.Agree with the desire-ability though, "helped" build a dock out of Qsawn W. oak in Illinois in late 40's when a little kid, it was still in great shape when replaced (due to change in level of the lake) in '70's, full weather exposure for over 30 years. A cousin in IL has osage orange fence posts on a pasture that his grandfather installed in the '20s, still great shape.
*While some environmental groups demonize all pressure treated wood, research appears to indicate that except for the surface residue on the product following treatment, the toxic heavy metals used for CCA or AZCA leach out minimally while the wood is intact. The immediate concerns are sawdust during building and ash from any CCA or AZCA materials that have been burned. The problem may (will) come when the next generation or two has to deal with all the old, broken down pressure treated wood deteriorated to the point that it can no longer encasulate the heavy metals. Some have claimed that the future disposal of pressure treated lumber will be the next "asbestoes litigation nighmare". I doubt that it will be anywhere near that big a deal, but the disposal of PT lumbers from old decks, docks, etc. will probably be a problem at some point in the future and may lead to having to dispose of PT materials as toxic waste. There are some alternatives that are claimed to have much less potential for environmental toxicity than CCA or AZCA. I have tried to obtain some of the ACQ treated lumber, but found only one lumber yard that would even order the stuff and then they wanted some exorbinant shipping charges on top of the list price, so I figured to keep looking. The following are some Web pages discussing these alternatives treatments (most these are producers, so their information may be just slightly biased.)http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/WoodTreatment.htmlhttp://oikos.com/products/wood-plastics/csi/http://www.treatedwood.com/products/http://www.conradwp.com/acq.htmhttp://www.conradwp.com/sillbor.htm
*Front page of our local paper today has an article about increased concerns over PT wood; they note that Environment Canada (Gov. Dept.) expects manufacturers to attach labels to PT products by the fall; lots of stuff about how dangerous it is. There were some quotes by an official with the municipality (sounding kind of shakey....everyone, including Public Works, uses a lot of it down here).....saying they were going to have to do some research before they decided what they were going to do, but that they would follow any advisories about it. Maybe it's scare mongering; maybe not. The increased government concern seems to be a new thing.
*Casey - Gray Lumber (253)-752-7000, in Tacoma stocks ACQ lumber. At least they did last summer. If you make a road trip up this way let me know, will ya? Maybe we can meet for a cup of coffee or a meal. To answer AJ's question, I have always used CCA treated lumber against concrete. I don't like to use it where it's exposed to the weather because of reports about arsenic contanminating soils under decks, but I think mud sill is the perfect application for it. The question about whether these materials will be a toxic pollutant in the coming years is a hot button topic for lots of folks, I know. I try to leave those debates to the scientists. But if there is the possibility of PT materials releasing toxins into the ground and our waterways, I prefer to spend a little extra now, than pass along the planet in worse shape than I found it. But that's just my choice. I sure wish they had known then what we know now about asbestos and lead. Hell, I have a hard time believing fiberglass doesn't create serious problems for lungs.
*ArtB. If you'd like I'll sell you all you want @ $.35 bd.ft. (gonna make a profit for my efforts) I don't know what it'll cost to ship it but I doubt it's anywhere near$2.65 bd.ft. probably close to $.15 or .20 bd. ft. if you get 5000 bd.ft. (about a truck load) Our low prices are because we endure some of the worst weather on 49 states. 20+ below (wind chills to 50 below) to 100+ above! and it's not the heat, it's the humidity!!! About 4 or 5 days of the year it's pleasant. the misquitos are filled and not out in droves. In fact this year was a record for us, we only lost two small children and a dog to misquitos. Some years we'd lose whole cities when marauding misquitos gang up and attack. Ever since Reagan paid all that money for defence we're doing better, now between radar and the patrols it's rare to lose anyone.
*you young'uns just don't remember wat it was lik bildin afore they had PT... it sucked...gimme PT 'er gimme death...creosote.... Cuprinol #10...hah, hah, hah, whattajokePT fer me... 060 for foundations.... 040 for decks and sills...and PT fer grape arbors too....
*Danger...danger...Will Robinson...Look out...the sky is falling...Are yaa all gonna live fo eva?I like milkshakes...and I know they are killing me faster than my deck and my sills...And oh the bacon I consume...and planes I fly...and trucks I drive on the big bad scarey roads...jeepers creepers...I'm so scared...how is I gonna survive all that there is tryin to get me...And now that I pissed off all you lurking worry worts...I got's ta watch my back side for youse all!near the gun rack...backin up the stream to a defensive high point,ajAnd careful when yaa come attackin as ya gotta cross my PT dripped on infested soils...yaa do. Betta be wearin Bio hazard suits and all..Oh and yaa better have a biohazard special forces comander to manage all...and a document lietenant or may be a dozen...and bring in the lawyers...the authorities i tell ya...Get Janet Reno to come back on this i shakey special assignment...Right up her waco whacko stream...RIGHTEOUS...RIGHTEOUS...IN THE NAME OF JESUS PLEASE PRAY.
*I have never seen a rotten PT sill, I can't remember ever seeing a rotten piece of PT anywhere. Built a house in '76 with, a then, novel PT foundation (no block or masonry anywhere 'cept the chimbley, no problemo to date. It's way too cheap to not use and lose sleep, and if it is bad for our health, the whole state of NC is going down hard...
*Not just the sills, but every stick in the house ought to be pressure treated.
*Joseph, What about an alternative? I mean I'm building my house with white oak and Black walnut. Can I use that instead of pressure treated?
*Hey Frenchy, I've torn down houses that had white oak in ground contact for 50 years with minimal decomposition. I've had black walnut rot out when I didn't store it right, now, I've heard black cherry can take about anything, just never had enough to try it out...
*Frenchy, one of these days, I'm going to come out there and strangle you.
*A carpenter I know in the Virgin Islands told me they don't use anything BUT pressure treated lumber there. I saw the same thing in Hawaii a few months ago too, even PT plywood sheathing.
*Hey Jimbo , those little glass fibers do get in the back corners of the lungs and strangle you from inside out. Hey Frenchy , Can we get mixed loads ? I would like some oak and ash , I think i have enough walnut . Have you ever used catalpa ? Are there any catalpa trees up in the great white north, well the sothern half anyway.??
*Joseph, If you do be sure to drive your truck so you can bring some wood back with you....
*The real problem isn't how to dispose of PT lumber, the problem is how to dispose of environmentalists. They've already gone way too far with asbestos, which isn't anywhere near as dangerous as they'd have you believe.-- J.S.
*Don, Heck if you get enough of whatever they'll sell you anything you want. They have a lot of White oak and the price is reasonable. Ash is always available, as is Basswood which I prefer to work with. Red Oak on the other hand is becoming so much in demand that they are always sawing it. Right now it's one of the few woods they can make adecent profit from. They are a nice bunch of guys and very honest too. As for catalpa, yeh we have some of those annoying trees here. mainly in someones back yard where they were planted. (they sure aren't native) I personnally think the wood stinks, literally ! I mean I don't like the smell of it when I've worked with it in the past. Besides the tree is one of the first to lose it's leaves in the fall and then you have these silly looking pods hanging around all winter. They fall off here and there so every snowfall finds some more littered in the yard. Then in the spring it seems to take forever to show any leaves. Nah, I'm not a fan of it. I place it below Elm as to a wood I like to make stuff from.
*xJohn Sprung, Thank you for that, I now know who to call when I get to my next house with asbestos. I'll be glad to pay your normal wages and airfair whenever I find a home that has some asbestos that needs removal..
*xJohn - if I remember correctly, it wasn't so much the environmentalists that were making noise about asbestos as it was all the asbestos workers who were dying of asbestosis and lung cancer.
*I threw a suprise 50th wedding anniversary party for my parents last week, here's the short version of one of the stories my Mom threw out:She came into the house to find her 9 year-old Mini-Mongo standing at the kitchen sink. I had my face planted in the sink, which was filled with water and ice cubes. My explanation? "My nose was on fire."I had been outside creosoting the horse fence. Got some on my hands, wiped my nose, and flaming nose was invented.I still remember it. A couple hours of "ouch!"
*Casey....If yaa waded knee deep in vitamins...it would kill as many...or Cheerios...or water from pure jungle rot starting at the water line down...I know a girl who works at a huge law firm that specializes in Asbestos lawsuits...They hardly ever go to court...They just send companies a letter threat...then the monthly payments offer is worked out...Her attitude is, "they know they gotta pay"...her job was to bill and watch the thirty days past due...Millions of bucks...they have lists...and they prioritize by the biggest pockets to the smallest...She says they have in "inventory" another ten years or more worth of big dollar claims to go.It's bullshit...near the stream,aj
*John...I am starting to feel the same way about envirocrackpots...The latest idea being pushed down the throats of Adirondack locals is adding more rivers and boats to the list already that no motor boats will be allowed on. They want to ban camping now on State Hiking land...They are now charging a fee to hike in the Adirondack Mountains...They want to make it part of the National Park System Next...then we lose a huge pile of rights...They won't be happy till the last local gives up and moves out of Dodge. AS you say...Locals are an endangered species to be..and the cause is the enviro-nuts...Enviro-nuts must be eradicated now!near the nut cases and their grand schemes for the streams,aj
*Frenchy: May take you up on your offer of being a wholesaler if I start another house a couple years from now. Betcha Blodgett could use a few MBF at your prices for his cabinet shop too - whatcha think Jim, want to go in together on a load sometime? Mongo: Yeah, Penta on an eyelid is quite a burning sensation also.
*...may be, Art, may be...but, um, don't tell the missus, okay? She's already after me to start using the stash I have in the shed now.
*I see where a group of "enviromental lawyers" are looking at class action law suites for any person or country that "thinks" that they are harmed by global warming.http://www.iht.com/articles/31703.htm
*Laugh if you want guys, I know it sounds goofy that some people make a fortune on other's misery. On the surface you're right.! Now here's the rest of the story.. Lawsuits and threats of lawsuits are what force large souless companies to follow the rules we've all set up. Some would advocate a land where it's easier to sell products regardless if it's safe or wise. Everyone can understand that, who want's to deal with the hassles of rules etc. they really do interfer with earning a buck. Yet one of the fundamental rules we all are supposed to live by is the golden rule, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If your neighbor endangered your life and property by carelessly burning piles of trash and etc. you might be tempted to go over there and beat the shit out of him. If you did, guess who winds up in jail? There are laws that need to be followed to deal with problems. It's part of living in a complex society. So when someone does something wrong society punishes them. Big corporations can't be taken out behind the wood shed and beatup so we punish them the only way that has any impact. We take their profits from them. Those who manage to take them out behind the woodshed are given a piece of the proceeds to reward them for their efforts. It's not a perfect sysrem but it's a hell of a lot better than no system.
*Yeah, and a lot of what's made public is just posturing, as a negotiating strategy. If a plaintive thinks they can get 50.00, they start out demanding 100.00. Of course the defendant starts out offering 0.00, hoping to settle quietly out of court and get back to business.I'm doing my best not to take the bait, but if you guys really believe we can continue to poison this planet, and not have a long term effect on our descendent's health, you might want to look around a little at what our parents and grandparents carelessness left us with - fish we can't eat, water we can't drink, ground that is unsafe to plant crops in. There's more people born every day than die. There's only so much land and water left. And the toxins we generate as byproducts of our industries today, like nuclear waste, are way more potent than what our ancestors dealt with (mercury, lead and asbestoes come to mind).
*So Jim...pollution is a good thing...it helps with overpopulation.pissing downstream,aj(Posting tongue in cheekish)
*Now hold on there AJ. I never thought of it THAT way before. You just might be on to something..."thinning the herd" so to speak.
*Casey #28No - it was the lawyers with a nose for class action money. They put more workers out of jobs than they ever helped. A little known and underpublicized fact testified to in court back then was that NO worker exposed to the esbestos who was a non- smoker had problems only the smoklers suffered. You can heal from one or the other. both together multiplied effects geometricly.
*Many sides to a coin for sure...near the stream,aj
*...Moderation is the word. Compare the exhaust from a saw to cut down 3 times the trees as 1 piece of PT would replace. I've been in many a crawl space with rats up my ass changing sills to know what I would use now.Too much oxygen will kill you. So will water. I grow herbs and food organically for the market, I don't litter, and I try to live the good life, but I get ticked off about some things. Lets all live in birch bark teepees or fir lean-tos. But some friends of mine are allergic to fir neddles and salicylin. Lets all walk because we know what spews out of an automobile . Where does that shit go when you have to get your brakes repaired? And gas fumes etc. I could go on...But lets think before we shoot......After one year lurking..let the flames begin......Newf...
*Newf, Friend I understand that you try to live a reasonable life with a minimum of impact. But, What about those that don't know or care. there are 260 million people in this country if each polutes a little then you have multiplied it times 260 million. I live in a state with well over 10,000 lakes. We have lots of water yet when dry spells happen, they put watering bans on that are just as tough as southern Calif. Why? because our sky blue waters are important to us. You asked about the polution from various sources, brakes cars etc. well you are correct nothing is perfect, does that mean we shouldn't try?
*...Frenchy...I live next door to the worst toxic site in North America. My point was not to incite!!! My point is that unless you can find a way to make the world a safe place, fork lifts & boom trucks included, one should really THINK before they piss in someone else's Kool-Aid™. There will be a better solution in the future, but it's not in my hands yet. Sorry to split the atom......Newf...
*Piffen, I've heard otherwise on that. Seems like asbestos has a hook that attaches itself to anything, smoker or not. I am not even close to being any kind of expert on this, but where would I see more of this little known and underpublicized fact...I lived and worked on an asbestos sided house for 15 years, did some studying, and never saw that one. What's the difference between a dead snake in the road, and, a dead lawyer in the road? There's skid marks in front of the snake...I hate 'em, but, in my opinoin, asbestiosis is somthing worth suing over and not being made light of. And, enviromentalists may be a pain in the butt, but I'm more glad they're there than I'm not. They helped stop oil drilling off the Outer Banks, no telling what that beatiful area would be now...If we want to enjoy this place, we do have to protect it...IMHO
*Bucksnort Billy, it sounds like you live in NC. NC is one of the most beautiful states in the country. I lived there back in the mid 70's What city do you live in. I have many friends that live there. Steve
*Bucksnort Billy, Black cherry will rot almost as fast as Poplar or even White Pine if it's in a damp location.
*I certainly am not against using pressure treated wood, I plan to do so myself. I just don't see the need to add more toxic metals to my current load by using CCA or AZCA when there appear to less toxic alternatives available. Unfortunately, as mentioned earlier, those alternatives are not as readily available.It appears that chromium and arsenic in low doses primarily increase the chance of cancer or heart attacks. But so do a lot of other things and both are naturally occuring in some places, so it is hard to actually pin the blame. Since we know that everything lasts forever, including us, right, we don't need to worry about the wood foundations and fence posts and playground timbers, and docks, and other stuff. So if it does break down it will only probably add enough carcinogens in a few decades to increase cancer deaths by a few thousand per year, but we won't be around then, so why worry...(If I remember correctly the expected life of pressure treated lumber is from 30 years to 80 years, depending upon the type of service and conditions, with 50 years being a fairly typical figure that is given.)
*Casey...You're whacked my boy...i I certainly am not against using pressure treated wood, I plan to do so myselfThen you go a nd explain how it will eventually prove to be a bad idea to use PT.If it is bad, then you and all of us should switch to white oak, since there is plenty of it to go around...and Locus...and plantation grown teaks and Mohaghany. I am about to buy some plantation Teak in fact...in Costa Rica...$1000 for a small stand of trees that grow from seedlings to 20' tall in 8 months...Harvesting/thinning starts after 8 years and goes on for several more years.near the stream,ajLets ban PT Now!
*Chapel Hill, y'all come by, ya heah!
*Ted, I've made some outdoor furniture out of black cherry, the stuff sits on the ground and has held up as well as cypress. Maybe it's extra black?
*Bucksnort, I did a quick Web search and found a number of sites which support you on that. Consensus was that Cherry wasn't as good as White Oak, but on par with Walnut. I made my statement based on what I've seen in the woods. I've seen Walnut logs lying for years in the woods, still solid after you scrape off about a 1/2" of rotted stuff. But Cherry seems to rot up in no time. I do know that Cherry rots from the outside in, unlike Maple, Poplar and Pine which rot pretty uniformly throughout. Maybe the milled lumber holds up better because there's no bark and not much sapwood to start the rotting process?So I learned something today. Thanks.
*I was wondering if you could use some of these new composite materials [plastic and sawdust] - like they use for decks - for the sill plates. They don't rot and are supposed to be insect and water proof. -Peter
*I would be concerned with the plastic nature of plastic...It might squeeze over long term...in a poor way.near the stream,aj
*AJ - you just flunked the quiz - you haven't been taking careful notes on all my posts and studying them on your all-nighters. The pressure treated that I plan on using is ACQ which reportedly is relatively benign compared to the heavy metal stuff. The pressure treated that I DO NOT intend to use is CCA or ACZA. Of course, I am not yet fully convinced that ACQ is as pure as the driven snow (ok, snow can kill you), but it appears to be better than the aternatives.Today's motto: Avoid heavy metals - stick to the acoustic stuff...
*AJ- I understand your concern but there are a number of different types of artificial boards out there and I was just suggesting that one of them might have the same compressive strength as pressure treated. And, even if not, this might be an opportunity for some enterprising entrepreneur to modify their formula a wee tad and produce something that does. This would eliminate the need for the deadly, toxic poisons in pressure treated lumber which murder 1/10th of 1% of a child per year. -Peter
*Ted, yeah you can't have any cherry sapwood in outdoor stuff, it disappears fast...It's way too nice to use for sills, though...
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