P&TS T&G Plywood or OSB T&G Subfloor?
RobKress
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hi all,
Got a couple of quotes for the lumber load on my house and one of the suppliers is quoting P&TS tongue and groove plywood for the subfloors at $18.69 per sheet.
Is this stuff worth the extra money over OSB ($13.58) or should I take that extra money and put it into thicker roof sheeting (trusses 2 ft centers)?
The first floor will be 3/4″ t&g planking and the second floor will be carpet. And I have already upgraded the floor joist system to 2×12 dimensional.
Thanks for the advice.
Rob Kress
Replies
are you talking 1/2 osb, 3/4 osb, or an osb floor product such as adventech
what is p&ts, pressure treated?
I believe PT&S is plug & touch sanded, which means standard plywood. I would recomend some of the subfloors that have a combination of layers with both plywood and OSB board.
Just curious RK, what did you upgrade from, and why?? ie "now 2x12 fl. joist." On your question , I figure $5.oo per sheet difference, if you decide to go the OSB, take the savings and put it towards coffee and donuts, for the trades people on your job. Jim J. here in Prescott, Arizona, most all the roofs with Trusses, in new construction are all 24" centers, 1/2" sheathing, weather it be, osb or ply, w/ clips.
What did I upgrade from????
Maybe I put it the wrong way originally.......
I have some long spans across the back half of my house. 2x10 floor joists would have covered it but I was close to the line on span and didn't want any sponginess in the floor so I upgraded to 2x12. I was thinking in the beginning that I would use engineered I joists to better stiffen the floor but found out that they have other "features and benefits" in the same sizes as dimensional lumber (significantly longer spans is not really one of them). And then the cost premium of engineered lumber is kind of a bummer.
In fact, I was really hoping to use a lot of engineered products in my house but the economics don't work out that way. I'm sure in the future, it will be more expensive to use dimensional lumber but today, the mass production folks are still cramming 2x4 SPF down our throats. It's unfortunate because I would like to be as "green" as possible and I know that engineered lumber is just better all the way around.
As for as P&TS..... yes, it is plug & touch sanded plywood. I just don't know if it is significantly better than 3/4 T&G OSB (well $5.00/sheet better). Of course the plywood would also be 3/4".
Rob Kress
I have some long spans across the back half of my house. 2x10 floor joists would have covered it but I was close to the line on span and didn't want any sponginess in the floor so I upgraded to 2x12.
I'm just curious. Did the architect make a mistake with the 2x10's? Why did you have to change it?
What was the span on the 2x10's?
Joe Carola
Edited 4/27/2003 9:08:28 AM ET by Framer
The back half of the house started out at 18 ft or so. And I was really happy about that (I like the idea of a very wide great room and kitchen). But then the architect had to move the wall in because of joist span (can't remember how far).
At that point, we had all kinds of discussion about how to handle the floor load and what would be best. That's when I started asking questions about I joists...
That's when I found out that I joist in the same dimension really don't carry any heavier loads than dimensional lumber. Plus, it's hard to mix I joist with dimensional lumber (like I joists at the back of the house and dimensional for the front shorter spans) because the I joists are roughly 14/ or 3/8 less wide ( the there is a step down in the floor when you transition from dimensional to I joists). Ok now that becomes a pain in the rear.....
So it was then that I made the decision to go with 2 x 12 joists for a very stiff floor. And the cost adder is not that bad.
Then the architect moved the wall in again!!! And actually this one is kind of killing me because my really great 18 ft wide great room is now only 16 ft wide. But it's not really his fault (quite literally it is mine) because the whole plan is really my doing (he was just the draftsman). It all had to do with the upstairs and some windows that needed to line up better. And there were a lot of ways to fix the problem (line up the windows), but the best solution was to move the great room wall in again to 16ft.
So that takes me to the end of my story about the floor joists being 2x12. Yes they could easily be 2x10. I may actually change them at order time. Still thinking about it..... and my bowling alley of a great room.
Rob Kress
I hate to break it to you but 16 ft is really pushing the limits of 2x12's
2x10's should be out of the picture.
do it right now, cause you can't go back and put in bigger joists later!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Mr. T,
I have to be honest, for as much as I am doing on this build and design, I have really been going on the recommendation of others when it came to the floor joist system. But now I see that I really do have to handle everything myself.... go figure.
And, I have not really had to chance to take a comprehensive look at the whole situation. So now is the time that I will do that....
Yes, just looked at a chart and I see that 16 ft span is right at the limit of 2x12. And then of course, 2x10 is totally out of the question.
So I took another look at the engineered I joist table and see that an eij with a depth of 11 7/8" can clear span 18'-08" (16" centers, 40 psi live + 10 psi dead, and a deflection of L/480). Indeed a much better load rating than dimensional lumber.
So now I am into the cost benefit of eij over dimensional. And nobody has really been straight with me about that (I'm not sure why). But I get varying reports on the cost and performance of eij's from some people who I trust and respect in the industry. To me though, it looks pretty clear...... better load characteristics, more green (better for the environment), easier to handle, easier on the mechanical trades, better overall performance, higher cost. How much higher? I really don't know yet. And people are so resistive to figuring that out for me (go figure).
I think maybe part of the problem is that, I am working in Cleveland, OH where even roof trusses don't get a lot of play. Just a lot of carpenters using what they learned and are comfortable with. But I'm young and not afraid of new things and will be one of the lead guys on the framing crew.
And to think, I was just looking at my plans to see how I could move that wall back out to 18'. This is a big project that I am undertaking but I am having a lot of fun and learning even more.
Thanks for the post and heads up. I guess I have a really full day now.
Rob Kress
Rob
As far as price comparrisons, why not call your local suppliers. Its different all over the country.
That would seem to be the most logical answer to your question.
When you find out let us know what the results in your end of town turned out to be.
Be well
Namaste
Andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Rob ---
I don't know what type of engineering your location requires or what type of lumber is available ...
For the lumber I use ...
2x12s (@16" 1/480 deflection at 40# live load 10# dead load) span 18.1'
1-1/2"x12" I-Joists same conditions span 18.3'
You need good engineering advice. The people here are not competent to give it to you.
From your comments it appears that you are in over your head.
George,
>>>>2x12s (@16" 1/480 deflection at 40# live load 10# dead load) span 18.1' <<<<
Yep, I see exactly what you are talking about in the chart that I am looking at. However, that span in shown for floor joists without the extra load of a ceiling below it. For a floor system with a ceiling below, I see that the span is 16'-6".
Indeed, I need to consider the floor joisting situation in more detail.
No, I never intended on "going to the bank" on anyones word here. And my original post was really a question of peoples "preference". Code in my area allows for both types of floor sheathing.
"In over my head"..... hardly.
Rob Kress
As far as the plywood issue goes, the answer is neither. Use 3/4 T&G Advantech. We have been using it for about 5 years with great results. After seeing the OSB used in my sister's new home last year after 2 rainstorms, I would never, ever, ever use it. Every sheet on the first floor swelled at the butt joints to 1". The builder just laughed about it and said it was normal. Never happens with Advantech which carries an amazing warranty which includes labor costs for repairs. The local Advantech rep claims to have had fewer than 5 claims in 5 years. I know of one where they paid to repair one bad piece in a finished home. The repair was actually a 2' square piece. They paid to restretch the carpet, move the furniture and repair the problem. Do you think Georgia-Pacific will do this for your OSB ?
carpenter in transition
Edited 4/27/2003 6:54:31 PM ET by TIM_KLINE
Rob
On a 16' span using 2x12's I'd recommend dbling them up or use engineered joists.
Seems like an awfully long span even for 2x12's. Did an engineer say this would be a solid job????
I once did a job with that exact span and I used 3x12's... Not sure whats less expensive...dbl 2X or 3X.....my guess is 3X but dbl 2X is easier to work with and engineered joists are even easier to work with for what you get as an end result.
I'll be doing 18' spans in my house additions and the archy recommeded (its in the plans) engineered joists.
Its not "all" that much more $$$ for what youre getting.
BE straight and strong
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Going between Ijoists and 2X joists is no big deal as far as heights are concerned. Depending on the situ you either space them up or fur them underneath to get a level plane between the two.
A couple of thoughts on your questions/comments.
I would go with the best plywood possible for your subfloor. Imagine trying to replace it if you have problems with it down the road - It would be a miserable job.
On the question of floor joist choices - I did an extensive thread on Floor Vibration a while back. It's worth reading before you make choices about your floor system.Advertising is legalized lying. [H.G. Wells]
Boss,
Thanks for the post. Indeed very interesting stuff. And I can see how the math works out on this (I have a degree in physics). Of course then, your recommendation makes a whole lot of sense. I am currently knee deep in a full design / re-design of my floor. Also attempting to move that bothersome wall out 2 feet. I'll make sure I have all of my numbers checked though.
Thanks again. The picture becomes ever more clear, day by day.
Rob Kress
Boss, is Floor vibration still open? I'd like to go there If you would.
This post may be mixxed up in the links...
SamT
Heck, I don't know if it's open - I looked at the thread, and the "reply" button is still there.
Guess you could try it, or just start a new thread.If pro is opposite of con, then what is the opposite of progress? Congress.
If you have a good prybar, pry open your wallet and get the PTS plywood and use 5/8 cdx on the roof.
Make sure the ply you get for the floor is an underlayment grade. This will ensure that there are no voids in the core plys which will telegraph thru to the face.
Better yet see if you can get the new 7/8 t&g ply for the floors.
5/8 plywood has better nail holding for the roof=> less blown off shingles and popped nails, definately a must if you are in storm country.
I am still not sold on advantech OSB subfloor but a lot of guys here swear by it so you may want to look at it.
the osb core plywood sounds promising, seeif it come with a delamination guarantee.
ps. DON'T let your wallet make the decision this will be your home!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Edited 4/27/2003 5:53:28 AM ET by Mr T