pulling new conductors through BX armor
Taylor
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
I’d like to update some 75 yo 14/2 wiring to 14/3 for a light/fan switch, but I don’t want to touch the plaster on the walls. Fishing a new cable to the box looks problematic, if I don’t take the box out. I’m sure there’s a cable clamp (probably secured with a 16d nail) in the stud bay, so I can’t pull the old cable out. So I’m thinking of leaving the cable armor in place, and trying to pull the old conductors out with a fish wire on the end, then pulling new conductors (with the ground) in. Although there’s more conductors, the insulation on each would be thinner than the original.
Anyone tried this? I’d rather not get into a situation where I have to take apart walls to get at stuck cables…..
Replies
It is doubtful that you will be able to remove the old conductors unless you are talking about a really short run of BX. There are devices available that will let you control the fan and light separately with only two wires. It is a two piece unit and can be purchased at any place that sells ceiling fans. I put one in for my daughter and it even included a feature that included a dimmer for the light. I don't remember what it cost, but I do remember that it was the most economical solution to the problem of not enough conductors between the fav/light and the switch. I really did not want to go to the trouble of fishing new wires for her, and she was quite pleased with the result. I hope this helps.
Chuck, What's the name of this device, where can I get them. I have a house full of fans with only two wires. Thanks
DannyP.S. I don't want to go the remote route, I already have too many remotes in the house!
HD and Lowes has them.There are two types. One uses a remote. But the other one replaces the standard wall switch. Then there is a controller that you mount in the fan canopy.
Thanks.
I tried once on a piece of BX about 2 ft long, and couldn't get the old wires to move. There are light/fan combos with a remote control, sort of like a TV remote. All you'd need is hot and neutral, the remote would do everything else.
-- J.S.
I've put a total (so far) of 7 remote control ceiling fans and switches in my house. Keep in mind that the transmitters and receivers - from the same manufacturer - can be incomaptible. I'd advise buying control sets that include BOTH the wall unit AND a handheld unit - even if you don't intend on needing the handheld.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
We've got six of the Monte Carlo fans with box mounted remote transmitters and we love them. Complete control without having cords hanging from the fans and even reversible without climbing up to flip a switch.There should be a set of four dip switches on each of the transmitter and receiver. These need to have the same setting. If two or more fans are too close to a transmitter and have identical settings then both will operate. So if you install multiple fans, be sure each set of transmitter and receiver has a unique setting.
No, it's not just that simple - believe me I've tried! Hunter sources their radios from lots of different places. That means while a transmitter/receiver purchaced together will work together, another Hunter transmitter may NOT.
Example: They have a really nifty remot unit that has a programabme thermostat built in, as well as a dimmer that tells you what percent the light is powered at. Unfortunatly, this system doesn't work with their other controls that mount into the standard wall plates to simply turn the lights on and off. Lose the remote and you lose the light!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Oh, it is a Hunter! I missed that part before. I'm not impressed with their stuff and I try to avoid it if I can. I had several of their programmable thermostats and they went bad within a few years. I doubt that you could count on any two of their pieces being manufactured at the same place.
I had one of these remotes that are being talked about.
I think it was a Hunter. It was on a dining area / kitchen ceiling fan - lots of use by my three kids.
After a year and a half, they had pounded on the wall transmitter so much, the switch failed. I ended up running a new set of wires (14-3) to the fixture. Big pain.
On the other hand, my parents installed one at the same time in their bed room and they have had no issues with the setup.
So, go in with open eyes.
Thanks all for the replies. Part of my thinking is I'd like also to upgrade the old wires, cloth insulation is crumbling. But looks like only option I have left is to get the box out, which would require sawzalling nails in plaster wall, ugh.Maybe it's time to declare victory and leave....
I remove boxes from walls all the time without destroying plaster. I take pride in this. Granted, I'm not always successful, but my point is that it can be done.
If the edge of your opening is at the side of the stud, you are lucky. Keep in mind that the new box may be bigger(plastic, fiber, or masonry). Also, you have a little play with the area that is covered by the wall plate. There are oversized plates available if need them and of course, the worst that could happen is you'll need a wall patch.
But back to removing the box. If the box is nailed with two nails(16d) running through the box side to side, you can chip away some plaster about an eighth inch all the way around the box first. Then pry the nails loose a little with a screw driver. Next, pry the box away from the stud enough to get a hacksaw blade in there. Cut the nails and let the box fall into the wall if you need to.
If the box is fastened to the face of the stud with an attached bracket, chip the plaster away and eighth Inch around the box and use a saw to cut the bracket off of the box. I use a Bosch inline jig saw with a metal blade. Be very careful if you use a recip saw. Use a fine blade and go slowly.
Once you remove the box and fish your wires, you can make your hole large enough to fit your new box and mount your box. If you were lucky enough to have your opening edge up to the stud, you can mount any box to the stud by running two drywall screws from the inside of the box into the stud. Use fender washers under your screws if you use a plastic or fiber box. You'll have to drill a couple of holes in a metal box for your screws.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Thanks for the tutorial, it helps a lot!
If you were lucky enough to have your opening edge up to the stud, you can mount any box to the stud by running two drywall screws from the inside of the box into the stud.
Is there a trick to screwing DW screws into the side of a single-gang box? I tried going diagonally with longer screws and the box ended up at a noticeable angle to the wall.
Edited 8/26/2005 6:33 am ET by Taylor
the box ended up at a noticeable angle to the wall
Sounds to me like the drywall is not flush with the stud and allowing the
box to twist when you apply the screws,
Is there a trick to screwing DW screws into the side of a single-gang box
Try predrilling your holes a little larger than the shank of the screw,
so that after you almost set your screws you can "adjust" your box,
and if that fails you can always use the drywall boxes that have the wings
at the top and bottom of the box that are held in by friction.
There is a new box out that is specifically approved for this.It has angled hole in it for the screws. You probably have to get them at an electrical supply store.
Thanks, and thanks again bosn.I'll look for the box that Bill H recommended.I think my problem was the screw threads catching the box as the screw was toe-nailed in. The box started flat and swung in as I screwed in. I could try to make the holes bigger but they might need to be darn big no to have the screw shank pressing unevenly against the side of the box. But I'll give it a try....
For removal of old plastic boxes, I have discovered that a 1" or any size spade bit will do wonderful things to the back of the box. Also a wood chisel and a cold chisel and aviation snips.
As for inserting the screws, Milwaukee has a small 1/4" right angle drive attachment [HD about ~$20] which shouyld help. It seems the problem is the screw goes in at an angle and pulls in the cut-in box cockeyed. As mentioned, use large holes in the side of the box. You may want to compensate for this "pull-in" effect by starting with the box about 1/8" rurther out than you want and then the screw pulls it in 1/8".
~Peter
Why do the French mispronounce every word they write? Don't they know phonics?
Some times the stud isn't square with the wall. Some times the drywall isn't flush cut to the side of the stud. You could try shimming between the box and stud or trim the drywall. Oh, and trim the drywall or plaster all the way to the stud if it is not.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Okay, a glutton for punishment, I've decided to give a try to taking the box out. Have chipped away plaster around the edges (couple of notches fell away, zut alors). Looks the thing is attached with a brace on the side and in the front. Looks like they plastered over the brace near as I can tell, it's not going anywhere.. Vibration of even jigsaw would I'm sure take off the plaster. So question: okay to use an angle grinder with metal cutting blade to slice through that brace? I've only used it for nails before.... Figure I'll have to resort to hacksaw at top and bottom, but angle grinder should get most of the work done....
I assume the box you have is a single gang box with a bracket that is the same thickness as the box material. The bracket is sticking straight out the side of the box about a half inch back from the front edge. The bracket is spot welded to the box. This box is installed by simply nailing through the bracket to the face of the stud.
The answer to your question is yes, I guess. Use any means you have available that will do the least damage to the plaster. Be sure to shut of the power to the box. And don't be in such a hurry that you avoid the simplest solution...the hacksaw blade wrapped with tape.If you haven't drawn blood today, you haven't done anything.
Well the box is out. I'll review for anyone that wants to try this themselves.The advice given here has been very good. I ended up relying on a jigsaw with a fine-tooth metal cutting blade, holding it very very steady and going real slow to cut off the bracket on the side of the box. I couldn't get in far with an angle grinder and I don't think I could have held a sawzall as steady as I did the jigsaw. I also used a hacksaw in some places, I pretty much used the jigsaw to speed things up.Since every job in my house has complications, the one here is that the box also had some kind of flange on the other side from the bracket, with lips on both sides of the wood lath. I ended up having to remove about 1/2" of plaster on the outside so I could fold the flange out and then push the box into the wall. Unfortunately as I was cutting the bracket, the blade caught and the flange punched a hole in the plaster at one corner. Oh well, time to do a search on plaster repairs....Thanks again for everyone's help.
I have the angle grinder and a recip saw with a fine tooth blade handy for that kind of job. Do as much as you can with the grinder, because it cuts the fastest. Use the recip for what the grinder can't reach.
-- J.S.
Taylor: One thing noone has mentioned is fire hazard w/ 75 yr old wiring. That stuff isn't much longer for this world, anyway, & should be replaced whenever you get a chance. I once lived in a house w/ 1920's wiring in it that was replaced. It was a real mess, w/ cut plaster, but was repaired beautifully so that there was zero evidence of the repair. Also, the wiring that came out was a mess. The cloth insulation was horribly decayed & crumbling. Not a pretty sight!
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Yes that is as much a consideration.... I can see the state of the insulation in the cable that was in the ceiling box and it's pretty pitiful.....