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Would really appreciate any feedback on adv. or disadv. of using that white plastic water-suppy line (pvc?) versus traditional copper plumbing. The plastic would be soooo much ‘easier’ to use on the little apt. I’m building. But somebody told me they thought it ‘leached’ from hotwater through it(???) Any thoughts?
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Don't use white PVC. I imagine you mean the slightly off-white CPVC used for domestic supplies.
Works fine.
Something better and probably easier to use is PEX tubing. Flexible and available in long lengths (on a roll). Some manufacturer's systems utilize compression-like fittings that are easy to use.
Several of my local plumbing supply houses stock PEX. There are a few different manufacturers and connection systems. I even found PEX stocked at Home Depot in FL last winter. Not around southern New England yet though.
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You need to check with your local or county building department, sometimes it is called 'Building Inspections,' to find out what is allowed and what is not in your locality.
You should know that this is a very basic question and indicates that you probably need to do a GREAT deal more investigation or hire a plumber.
There is one type of pvc plastic allowed for Hot Water (usually a cream color) and another rated for cold. They are all rated for pressure; you need to know that too. There are codes on what size pipe must go into a hot water heater and what size (min.) must come out, usually 3/4" but that all depends on other factors. I suggest you bone-up on this w/ a few good books then talk to your local governmental agency that deals w/ this.
Ok, and play safe. You don't want to have to do this again a month later.
*Oh, and Aaron regarding the copper vs. pvc, I prefer the copper because you can get it in various grades of wall thicknesses and that seems to tell me that it can withstand small impacts should they happen. Plus, pvc is not allowed in my city's jurisdiction.
*Hey guys .. thanks .. OK .. cpvc IS ok here in Seattle... I know that because all of the cheap track-house builders use it pretty much exclusively. But an old plumber in the aisles of Home Depot told me it was NOT a good idea... that it 'leached'plastic into your water or something .. as I said above. My question is on that and whether there are other considerations I should be aware of. [Haven't ever heard of "PEX" .. I'll look into it.] Thanks.((PRP: what's all the "check with local code" stuff ... wasn't asking about 'code'(?) And I'm too poor to hire a plumber. I do ALL aspects of building on my own .. with feedback from wherever I can gleen it! I'm a plodding perfectionist by nature .. so it's always worked out beautifully in the long run.))Thanks again,a.
*I think you hit it on the head with the phrase "cheap tract house builders." There is a reason copper is allowed in areas where (sometimes) PVC isn't. Copper is durable and resists the damage that can be induced by time, temperature, tremors and testosterone. Have you ever broken a PVC sprinkler line when screwing in a brass head? Can you imagine what would happen to the lines in the wall if a person grabbed on to the shower head to keep from slipping? I personally don't think the risks outweigh the convenience. Learning to sweat a good solder joint is a satisfying experience and because you are, as you put it "a plodding perfectionist," you will enjoy the perfection of copper plumbing. Now, if there was just a satisfactory way to keep from having to thread iron pipe for gas lines I'd be a happy camper.-Ben
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Aaron;
Re: PRPs comments on "code"
There is a reason for codes. This is so the next owner of your project 5 years down the road isn't posting a problem here with comments on how the prior "perfectionist" screwed it up.
Sorry, but PRP was right on with his advise.
*Well, Ben, I think I've got the answer to your prayers. It's called CSST - Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing. It's made by a number of manufacturers as an alternative for cutting and threading black pipe for gas lines. The fittings LOOK like compression fittings, but are unique to the brand of tubing you use. As you tighten them down, they form a flare-like shape in the tubing that mates with the milled face in the fitting.Several months ago there was an article in P&M about CSST. An installer had three identical condos to be piped for gas. The first he did in black pipe - took three men a full day to do the work. The second and third condos were done in CSST. Two of the three guys on the crew did BOTH in one day and the third got sent down the road to another work on another project.
*The advantage of plastic: it's cheap.The advantages of copper: everything else.Aaron, I suspect you are asking this question because you aren't comfortable working with copper. Once you are experienced you will find copper is almost as fast, and actually easier to work with. Plastic must be put together one joint at a time, whereas a whole copper assembly can be put together and then sweated all at once. This is actually a great advantage in complicated assemblies in small spaces.
*The only place copper really falls down, besides price, is when you have aggressive water. It can then corrode out quick. Because our water isn't aggressive -- even the 60 y.o. galv. was in decent shape -- and because sweating copper just feels kind of manly, I had no problem choosing it over possibly brittle CPVC. As far as leachates, I think what you're hearing about is the phalates (sp???) plasticizers ... anyway, that fear was convincingly challenged in a recent federal study ... trying to remember who did it. A real danger with copper is not-so-observant plumbers or DIYs literally burning down the house with the torch. This happens distressingly often. Once you get good at it, laying copper goes very fast except for the intricate stuff. But I did leave a few, uh, scorch marks on things...PEX sounds way cool. Flexible, non-corroding, quiet, compression fittings, fast, fast, fast ... I look forward to trying it. Has a long track record and will probably displace copper at some point from what i hear. Maybe even displace plumbers...
*I gotta disagree on this one,copper is the better hands down,I believe the Pex companies are involved in a class-action suit in which there were huge failures in the ceilings (where the pex was run) which caused flooding and complete ceilings to collapse from the weight of the water.Also the codes are there for your protection and it matters if you follow them, I know I want to know who did the remodeling work AND if everything was done to code,Otherwise I have a great bargaining chip for a price reduction if you can't produce the proper paperwork,and remember code is a minimum standard it doesn't hurt to excede code. Geoff
*I'm not sure where you get the idea I recommend violating code or building to the minimum. I would consider PEX based on the rave reviews i have heard and further research. More detail on any litigation would be helpful; a brief tour of the 'net and various news outlets just now turned up nothing.
*Aaron, I agree with andrew d 95% and with Geoff 100%. Copper is very durable and easy and outright fun to work with as long as you don't burn the house down. Hard plastic (PVC, ABS) with hard, fixed joints seems OK, too, though I haven't used them. Andrew d notes that PEX "sounds way cool." So did polybutylene water tubing and the original aluminum wiring. Anybody who has fiddled with cars will tell you that connecting flexible tubing with hose clamps or compression fittings or even factory-installed pressure rings is a guaranteed future leak. Rigid, frozen connections (solder, PVC or ABS cement) will withstand expansion and contraction forces, earth movement, clumsy constuction guys (not us, of course) well. But one pull on those rinky-dink flexible tubing connections and it's leak central. Summary: Eschew flexible tubing.
*Do not dismss pex so readily. There was nothing wrong with PROPERLY INSTALLED polybutylene, their lawyers just werent as good. pex has been used fo years in europe and is better than poly. Just remember it is the alternative to copper. copper is quieter when done right and will provied better flow in the same size pipe.
*Evolution has and will continue to occur in the field of construction materials. PEX is far superior to PB as a conduit for water. As for PVC for domestic water? Fuggedaboutit. My opinion. The biggest improvement of late has been the high-end fittings for securing PEX. I'm still leary of using any plastic for a domestic hot water system, where clients could potentially run the hot water at 160 degrees, and the city or well supply could potentially come in at 50-80 psi. With instant on/off valves as in washing machines, etc, the high temp, high pressure, and high surge caused by an instant on/off could induce failure. Sure, I've included a lot of "potentials', but in case of a failure it's not "potentially" my wallet that's going to be footing the cost of repair, it'll definitely be me.There are applications for PEX in both commercial and residential construction. There are applications where PEX is superior to copper. Why copper? For me, it's partially a comfort factor, partially inertia, partially fear of possible failures with PEX, either real or imagined. Even if I'm comfortable with the material, the buyer may not be. It could be a matter of time, a matter of education, both on my and the public's behalf, before PEX is more widely accepted.I'm aware of a few builders that use copper for domestic hot, PEX of cold. We all use it for radiant floor heat. I've got no worries of 95 degree water coursing at 12psi inducing failure. Also, when properly installed, all fittings are accessible at the manifold.PEX is good. Actually, it's better than good. To me, for today and in the foreseeable future however, copper is great.
*PVC= glueCOPPER=weldingI would rather drive a car that was welded together than glued together. And yes I know the glue is called a solvent weld. Is that similar to JB Weld for metal?
*Actually, the copper joining method is soldering, which is using a metal with a low melting point (tin and whatever) to glue two pieces of metal together. Welding actually "welds" two pieces into one monolithic piece by melting with heat or solvent -- so strictly speaking the PVC joint is a weld. Copper doesn't melt until like 1000 degrees C.A bad weld or solder joint isn't worth much... And you may find yourself driving glued car one of these, with what they're doing with synthetics!Can anyone explain what brazing is?
*Don't they do brazing at Dairy Queen? I think it involves cooking corndogs with a propane torch. While you describe soldering using a metal with a low melting point, I've always understood brazing to essentially be soldering with an alloy that has a high melting point, like Zinc-Cu alloys, brass, etc. It's melting temp is, however, lower than the two pieces of metal you are brazing together.
*Welding metal implies actually melting several pieces of metal together, with or without a similar metal filler, so that when it cools you have a solid chunk of steel, or whatever. Brazing is just high-temperature soldering: a dissimilar, lower-melting-poi8nt metal (eg brass or bronze) is melted between several pieces of a dissimilar, higher-melting-point metal, eg, steel. The steel doesn't melt, but is hot enough to melt the brazing metal. Silver soldering=silver brazing uses silver-containing alloy material. It melts at a temperature lower than copper, thus can be used on copper. The silver gives it several unique properties. First, it is very strong, much stronger than soft solder. Second, it sticks to a lot of different metals. Third, it is remarkably resistant to vibration. Fourth, most silver solders are corrosion-resistant. Some modern hard solders use less silver in them, and are therefore cheaper. The refrigeration and appliance guys do copper tube and silver soldering big time. Check with a place like Johnstone Supply for this stuff.
*PVC is not code in SoCal. Not even for outside hose bibs. The inspectors claim that the PVC leaches molecules that contaminate the water. I sure see a lot of it in rural midwest areas, however, so it must be code somewhere.I have no experience in PEX, and have never ever seen it here in SoCal, not once. That makes me think it is not code here, but I'll see the inspector later this week and ask.
*I always sweat my copper.......hehehe to introduce a new term....what is that...actually i braze with silver solder when using copper. You must have a darn good acetylene torch to do this but i prefer acetelene and oxygen. The old60/40 solder is ok but you have to flux and its not near as strong..
*I just visited my nephew and niece in Las Vegas. In the downstairs bathroom there was a mysterious door on the wall. I couldn't resist so I looked in there and found a manifold with all the PEX water supplies hooked to it. It looked wonderful there, all nice and neat. But, there was a supply line to each fixture. I don't think any plumber would do that if it weren't required, so I suspect that it is required because fittings are not permitted in concealed locations. Why not? Because they must be expected to fail with time.
*Mike Mahan's observation about PEX is dead-on. I previously compared PEX with fittings to polybutylene with fittings. The latter, of course, has repeatedly failed disastrously and stimulated a lot of lawsuits. A previous writer opined that polybutylene was actually a very good material "when it is installed correctly." I guess that's the real issue: human beings aren't perfect. If you make 1000 connections in a water supply, some of those will be imperfect, no matter how careful you are. With the wide overlap and the strong bond that occurs with copper or with PVC and ABS, the less-than-perfect joint will be ok because there is redundancy and because the materials are similar or identical and everything is rigidly bound together. With PEX, etc., you have markedly dissimilar materials with markedly dissimilar coefficients of thermal expansion, loosely bound with no adhesive between the male and female joint parts. With copper and glued plastic, the thin layer of solder or of cement is very wide (1") and very strong because it is so thin.It is essence acts as a gasket as well as holding the pieces together.
*... yet copper-mating compression fittings are well accepted by the industry ... Many have said the PB failure were due to installer incompetence; it is my understanding that at least some of it was due to manufacturing defects by Shell. Anyway, i hate to think that installer incompetence will freeze us at one level of technology -- ironically forcing us to pay installers for more labor than necessary! Trusses and I-joists, for example, are flushing out a lot of bad carpentry (e.g., notching I-joists at the beam!) but that doesn't mean the new technology should be shunned. Plywood and OSB met with similar resistance. it is simply a question of picking the GOOD new tricks from the bad -- which is PEX?
*The Hobart School of Welding Technology defines brazing as: A weld produced by heating an assembly to suitable temperatures and by using a filler metal, having liquidus above 450 degrees C (842 degrees F) and below the solidus of the base materials. There is a difference between brazing and braze welding. Brazing involved a thin film of filler material between two tightly fitting pieces (much like the copper soldering discussed)and relies on capillary action. Braze welding seems to involve pieces that are not tight fitting. Both use a non-ferrous filler metal. If anyone has a different opinion I, like most welders, can take a little heat....oops...pizza just arrived and I DON'T want it to lose heat....later! Thor
*Well, "Thor" should know his welding! Thanks.As long as I have people's attention, what is the basic difference between (electric) arc welding and torch (e.g., acetylene) welding? That is, when and for what do you use each? My only exposure has been to the electric approach -- which i thought was pretty neat...
*Andrew, I know you like to take the simple approach to things, but welding is a little more complicated than you let on... There are at least four major types of arc welding - mig, where the arc is from a motorized wire and the weld melt pool may be shielded by either inert gas or the slag from a flux contained in the wire; tig, or tungsten inert gas, where the arc jumps to the base metal from a tungsten electrode with metal filler being fed into the melt pool by hand similar to what is done in oxy-acetylene welding but with the weld pool shielded from oxidation by an inert gas; stick welding, where the electrode is typically coated with flux and is consumed by melting into the melt pool; and plasma welding, where the heat is generated by an arc which generates a plasma which then is directed at the base metal and which otherwise is much like tig. (There is also the super el-cheapo welders which used an arc jumping between a pair of electrodes.)Anyway, with each type you generally have AC current or DC current with normal or reverse polarity depending on application and metal type. You also have different types of shielding gases, flux, and filler material depending on the task. To weld your air frames, you probably would use either tig (for most home builts) or plasma (if you doing aero-space stuff). If it was aluminum, you would be using AC with a high frequency starting current for best quality welds. For mild steel, DC. Most mild steel production work these days is done by mig because it is much faster than tig even if the finished weld is probably not quite as pretty. OK, so why arc vs oxy-actelyene. Arc is faster and stronger and allows for welding thicker metals than oxy. Oxy can cause embrittlement of the weld. You might want to use oxy if you are working on your car with gasoline in tank - an errant spark from an arc welder would scatter your vehicle over more territory than you would care for.Whoops, looks like I am about to loose my connection, but I would recommend a tig unit for your next home-built, even though it will take a bit longer to master than some of the others...
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Acetylene torches (gas) are used primarily for cutting, like removing sections of beams and cutting openings. It uses compressed acetylene and pure oxygen to produce an extremely hot flame. I've given this type a try w/ the help of a fabricator-friend -- seems simple but it's kinda impressive wearing the garb and to have this wand in your hand, cutting steel. That's what I know of this type of setup.
Most of the welding on jobs that involve steel erection, even the tallest skyscrappers, use the (electric) arc welding method. An electric potential is established between the steel pieces to be joined and a metal electrode in the hands of the operator. When the electrode is held close to the steel memebers, a continuous electric arc is established and generates enough heat to melt both a localized area of the steel members and the tip of the electrode. The molten steel from the electrode merges w/th that of the steel members to form a puddle and in effect the bead of the weld.
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Asthetic qualities of PEX plumbing...
I'm yearning for information on the asthetic qualities of PEX plumbing compared to copper:
1. does the effluent water have any discernible "taste" to it?
2. is a PEX plumbing system quieter (on average) than copper?
3. is there a standard way to "dress up" exposed PEX plumbing lines, for example, with toilet connections?
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As a DIY plumber planning on a whole house replumb with PEX (Wirsbo), I have learned the following:
PEX is essentially the same polyethylene used for soft drink and liquor bottles, not to mention plumbing in the food industry. If those things don't taste funny, then neither will the water.
PEX is quieter. Rigid metal transmits sound effectively, flexible plastic doesn't. Plus, you can turn corners gradually, and can avoid most fittings, where turbulence and flow noise occur.
There are trim pieces to dress up a toilet connection. However, the ideal may be to use an in-wall drop eared 90 fitting in which you fit a brass nipple for conventional appearance.
(To those who think any plastic is bad because one kind caused trouble, I suggest investigating the decades of successful use of PEX in europe, and the fact that test samples have been at boiling temperature and hundreds of pounds of pressure for 25 years and counting. Methinks that the solderers are worried about the value of their skills.)
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Another vote for PEX! When I recently asked a "copper plumber" what he thought about PEX plumbing systems, he said he was hesitant to start working with PEX because he was afraid that the bulk of his business (repairing older copper systems) would go away! I get the impression from this discussion topic that most "copper plumbers" simply do not embrace change of any kind, for whatever reason!
*Looking for Vanguard PEX installers in Seattle/Tacoma area.I'm having my house built this fall (groundbreaking approx. Sept 17th) and would like names of plumbers in the Puget Sound area (specifically, Bremerton) who would like to install a Vanguard PEX manifold system. The manufacturer provided some contacts, but they are all too busy or unwilling to travel to Bremerton for some reason. Thanks.
*Caveat emptor -- PEX may be good, but an incompetent installer is not. Maybe you can find a copper plumber who wants to learn the new stuff? That is, if they've never done it before, they're willing to admit it and fix mistakes.
*"does the effluent water have any discernible "taste" to it?" In my world, effluent means waste water or sewage water. I assume it has a definite taste - apart from the flavor PEX may impart to it, but I will leave the tasting up to the microbes...
*Pure water is flavorless ... and not very appealing. I had the same reaction to "effluent" as "wastewater."
*Thanks to Websters to the narrowminded:1. effluent (adj) - "flowing out"2. effluent (n) - "something that flows out"I happen to be a registered professional environmental engineer in Washington, and a former naval submarine officer. From my experience, effluent is used to describe the water flowing out of ANY system that conveys or treats water. Next time, evaluate the meaning of a word based on its context.Now, what's the point of your discussion?
*Narrowminded? Oh my.You see, when speaking to a mixed audience, the commonly-accepted usage of a word wins out over the narrow and technical. Effluent most often connotes sewage, even if it may have a specialized and ironically broader engineering meaning. Also, if the reader must resort to context (or, God forbid, a dictionary) to rule out an oddball reading, there is something wrong with your wording that detracts from your message.In any event, as the Oxford English Dictionary (Shorter) defines the word: n. A stream or liquid flowing out; esp. waste discharged from an industrial process, sewage tank, etc. (emphasis in original)Now, I HAVE seen plenty of tap water that qualified as sewage, ad
*I happened to browse through the plumbing forum at:http://www.plbg.com/cgi-bin/forum.pland noticed that they also had a thread on PVC vs copper.The main thrust there (only four responses - a bit less lively than FHB's) was the potential toxicity of copper. Having always been a fan of copper, I am afraid that I had not thought much about copper toxicity to humans (I was aware, however, that it could kill aquarium tropical fish). The main comment was that under certain conditions, such as very pure water (not a problem in my area...), the copper will migrate into the water in concentrations considerably in excess of recommended limits for human consumption. A cogent comment was that in such conditions it will eat holes through the copper pipe and since this is a condition you want to know about before ingesting lethal amounts of the stuff, it may be better to have the thin (L) copper pipe rather than the thick (K) so it will leak sooner and give you a warning that something is amiss...!Having not researched this myself, additional information would be appreciated.
*Advice on plbg.com can be a bit ... odd. What you describe is a highly acidic water condition, which degrades the copper and causes pinhole leaks. This is the kind of problem faced by well water drinkers, not folks served by conditioned municipal supplies. I wish people would provide citations to support claims like these!Try: this EPA site. My hasty impression is that the "risk" is pretty speculative for most households.The argument for thinner pipe is just silly. Test the water rather than risking spending thousands to replace all the pipe later.For info on water filters, try this for info on a type I installed at home.
*I do not want to get into a big argument of PEX vs. copper- but here goes anyway. In my area, many people are on well water, and we have seen several cases of well water eating copper pipes. One particular case, the water is very acidic, and is treated both for acidity and also softened, nevertheless they have had numerouse problems with pinholes over relatively short periods of time. We were going to install PEX in the areas of the house that we worked in, but weren't allowed by ordinance in that township. So much for that. Another case was a house on well water that had an Invisible Fence grounded to the water pipe which seemingly caused a reaction that pinholed the pipes. After we properly grounded it, the problem has not recurred.In response to one post that said that they felt the reason PEX lines are "home run" to the manifold was so as not to have joints in the wall, thus proving the likelihood of leaks, I don't necessarily disagree, but if you could run copper without joints, wouldn't you? Also, it helps to reduce pressure fluctuations when using multiple fixtures on one branch. We have used PEX for heating for quite a few years and never have had major problems. We will undoubtedly use copper for a long time in the future, but have also invested in PEX fittings and tubing, and I look forward to trying it out.
*My final thoughts on PEX, and other new products: I welcome newer, better ways to do things, and try to switch to the best way ASAP. But first I want to be sure that the new thing is also the better thing. Rave reviews by "experts" are unreliable, in my opinion. As I mentioned before, aluminum wiring and polybutylene both had rave reviews. I have an inherent distrust of (touted) miraculous new cures; they have a way of becoming not miraculous, and sometimes of becoming maladies in themselves. The most valid way to form these judgements, I think, is to use one's common sense and also to see what really happens over the long term. In other words, let the other guys install the PEX for the next 5 years or so, and let them experience any catastrophes. If no catastrophes, great; you will have access to the 5 years of additional knowledge that will have been built up. Meantime, copper and PVC/CPVC plumbing have long track records of reliability; you can install these without feeling you're short-changing the homeowner. One or several people mentioned "long experience" in Europe with PEX. If this is true, that might shorten our trial period. But his merely asserting that this is so doesn't move me. I want to see chapter and verse, specifics, written down in reliable journals by reliable people with no financial axe to grind, and I want some large statistical samples which show everything is swell. I want to know the subtle details of installation which others have learned, which can be gained only from experience, and which I can use to install the stuff successfully, rather than stumble through the job and make the same mistakes they made over again.
*I wonder what the introduction of copper was like? Any old hands remember when galvanized started to go out, and how long it took?
*One complicating factor in the adoption of copper pipe was a severe shortage of copper in (I think) the late 1960s. The price of a section of copper pipe went up to something like $50 and this was several rounds of inflation ago. Thieves were stealing copper wire from remote electrical lines and other places to sell to scrap yards. I think this shortage was what prompted the introduction of aluminum wiring and it may have induced the mint to switch to the "sandwich" penny to save on copper costs (and possibly reduce the population by poisoning all those kids who swallow the zinc filled pennies...). Later came the great silver shortage, courtesy of the Hunt brothers trying to corner the market in silver (I think it went up to about $100 an ounce.) Otherwise, the late 60s were a great time - at least from what I can remember from it...
*
Would really appreciate any feedback on adv. or disadv. of using that white plastic water-suppy line (pvc?) versus traditional copper plumbing. The plastic would be soooo much 'easier' to use on the little apt. I'm building. But somebody told me they thought it 'leached' from hotwater through it(???) Any thoughts?