My understanding is that when installing quartz surface countertops, a template is made in order to get a correct fit. The wall is scribed to account for dips and bulges that are inherent with wood frame construction. We recently had a countertop installed and there is a 3/8″ gap between the wall and the edge of the counter. This seems excessive. What is an acceptable gap after the template is made and the countertop installed? Further, what can be done to correct the problem?
Edited 1/17/2008 8:09 am ET by DcE
Replies
The backsplash goes on the wall, covering up any imperfections. The backsplash can be the same material as the top or something different, depending upon your design.
We are using a glass mosaic tile for the backsplash which in total thickness amounts to 1/8", still leaving a 1/4" gap between the backsplash and back edge of the counter top.
Screw a piece of 1/2" greenboard or tile backerboard to the BS area, mount the tile, and put a radiused tile trim on the top.
Seen that before many times.
Wallow out the sheet rock ( within reason) and set into the recess.Sounds like ya need better templater..an 1/8 th is not bad, 3/8ths is pushing the limits.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm guessing that it's the vertical outside edge you're talking about and not the back edge, which, as Pete says, is usually covered with whatever backsplash. If it's tile, it's usually filled with grout or caulk.
If that's the case and the top is already glued down, it's probably something you should bring up to the installer. I've seen 'em chop out drywall and recess top into wall to close gaps. Scribing quartz is not as eazy as solid surface or laminate, hence it seems to get done less than it should.
Templating has its own problems. Ideally one would template with no countertop on cabinets...hard to do in a remodel situation, because of lag time between templating and install. So things get fudged. Most customers aren't anxious to give up kitchen function for two/three weeks. So things get fudged some more. Speed and convenience trump absolute best practice in many cases.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
New or remodel? Top glued down? Full height splash? If it's a small area, you could float the wall with setting mud to fill depressed area.
Trims might be hard to find, nonexistant or $$$ for glass tile.
If you hired this done, have you brought it up to installer? Did they know your splash choice?
One fix might be to go up a few inches with quartz and then tile above.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Edited 1/17/2008 1:39 pm ET by PeterJ
It is a remodel and the top is already glued down. The back splash will be about 5" high.We have brought it up to the installer who essentially has said it's not his problem, that walls are wavy and we need to take care of it ourselves. From my perspective, it makes me wonder why they would need to bother with a template if they weren't going to compensate for waves in the wall.
Did you let the installer know that you would be using a thin glass tile as a backsplash? He might have thought that you would use a more common thickness backsplash such as 3/4 in.
Sounds like the guy did a poor job templating or the fabricator did a poor job following it.
I install quite a few Quartz C-tops, we always make the templates as accurate as possible and will not make a template without knowing what the backsplash will be.
I shoot for a max gap at the back wall of about 1/8" when making the template, they need to be accurate because sometimes there is a discrepency between what I send in and what is I receive back from the fabricator.
Never had a serious problem yet though.
It doesn't need to be perfect because the backsplash will cover small gaps however the areas that are most critical are at the end of the run where it the edge of the counter may be exposed.
A 3/8" gap is pretty much un-acceptable in my mind even if he didn't know what the backsplash was going to be. 9/10 or our installs end up with a tile backsplash which is usually around 1/4" thick all said and done. Sometimes it's wider but usually not.
To correct the problem is going to mean getting the top un-secured. It depends on how they installed and what the thickness is. If you have 2 CM sitting on top of plywood I can't help because we do not deal with it. If it's 3 CM it depends on how they secured it.
We use silicone adhesive silicone around the perimeter of the top inside the cabinets and out. It's enough to hold it in place and can be cut if for some reason it needs to be removed. Some guys I've seen mix up bondo and use 1x1x3 or so blocks and use the bondo to "glue" the blocks to the cabinet and the countertop inside the cabinets. If it's secured this way you can try knocking the blocks loose.
You're also going to have problems around the sink if you need to completely remove the top. Depending on the size lifting it out without removing the sink is going to be hard, if it's an undermount sink you risk cracking the sink and the top when you try to break the bond between the two.
Edit: When the top is removed or un-secured there is a fair probability of cracking the top if you put to much stress on it. I really think you need to talk someone at the company you purchased them from besides the guy that came out and did the install.
Did you have the top installed by a local fabricator or a big-box store?
If you can get the top loose enough to move on top of the cabinets I would try to relieve the sheetrock and slide it into the sheetrock where possible to lessen the gap.
Bottom line, who ever installed the tops and secured them to cabinets should be the one responsible in my opinion. I'd call the company you used and ask the sales-rep you worked with to come out, inspect the job, and have him come up with how it's going to be fixed.
Edited 1/17/2008 6:59 pm ET by CAGIV
Never had a serious problem yet though.
Would you seriously expect the fabricator to cut the back egde of the top that much out of whack?
I've never seen it done. And even after it's done this guys tile job is gonna look like doo doo especially with the thin tile he is using.
While I'll admit that he MAY have gotten a hit and run, how is it the fabricators responsibility to fix his walls? Our fabricators all have language in their contracts addressing issues such as out of level and unstable cabinetry and out of plane walls.
We pay close attention to the templating process to avoid just such issues. If the wall is that bad, we can spec addittional overhag giving us the ability to bury a bit of it in the sheetrock.
What happens when the floor guy puts oak down on an out of level floor or one that has a hump in it? Is it his resposibility to correct the framing deficiencies?
When the roofer roofs over that high rafter? Is he supposed to open up the sheathing and correct the framing?
In the anount of time he spends complaining about this and the time we all spend helping him look for a scapegoat, a good craftsman could have floated those "waves" flat with a bg of Durabond and some taping tools.
Now I'm up three cents.
Eric[email protected]
Would you seriously expect the fabricator to cut the back edge of the top that much out of whack?
Yes I expect them to scribe to the line I provide them on the template, and they do, every time I ask for it. That said, depending on the backsplash I would probably take corrective action with that large of a bow because like you said it could be a big problem with the backsplash. A 4-5" quartz backsplash sure isn't going to bend to it. If the whole backsplash is a 4x4 or larger tile it can likely be floated out to work by the tile-setter or one of my guys with mud like you suggest.
You're comment about never seeing a quartz or granite top scribed is a surprise to me. I've even made slight modifications on site when necessary myself.
In my opinion you're being to hard on the guy, if he hired someone to do a professional job then he should expect it.... If he hired HD or Lowes etc. I have a hard time having much sympathy but even the big box stores should act like a professional company. The problem they have is the person selling the job has never seen or been part of an installation and know's little about the product, at least around here.
Is it there responsibility to fix the wall? No, but it is there responsibility IMO to bring it up the homeowner and point it out. They're supposed to be the expert, that's why they're hired. If someone wants to only cut nice straight lines and slap the tops in as quick as they can then they should find a different business to be in.
When you do trim work and you trim an existing door or window in an old house, do you put up your trim with perfect 45's or do you make it work with what's there? When install crown and the ceiling and walls aren't perfect do leave big gaps or make it work?
When you set cabinets and the floor is out of level or plum do you slap the cabinets on the wall or shim them? If you have a wall cab at the end of the run do you install with the shims and leave the gap or do you put an end-panel or scribe on?
You're roofing example I don't buy, as much as it's a finish surface it's not that critical to not show a hump.
As for the flooring, while he may not be responsible to fix the flooring he damn sure better explain to the customer before he's done with the job, and if necessary suggest the proper way to fix it.
The countertop is a finish surface and a highly visible one at that, the installer has the responsibility to make sure it looks good when it's complete.
I don't believe you work this way but your comments suggest to me that the installer is only responsible to come in and slap the #### up and if the cabinets are out of level or the walls bowed well that's just too damn bad.
The "It ain't my job" attitude a lot of people display doesn't go very far with me, It tells me they're either to damn lazy or stupid to do their job with quality and professionalism.
This is a kitchen remodel, I've put some tops on some pretty out of level cabinets, we shim the the top of the cabinets until they're level and run a bit of scribe or appropriate trim along the top to hide the game,. Otherwise your seams don't work out to well. We do charge extra for it and make the H/O aware of the problem but I'll be damned if I'll blame my finish product looking like #### because of some hack before me. That's not why I was hired.
The only way I can see this guy being responsible is if the fabricator had him sign off on the template. Even then he should have been shown area along the wall before he was asked to sign off. I have our customers sign each template and initial next to each of the details on every template, where it's scribed, where the finish edges are vs. what's a flat polish, the color, the edge treatment, etc.
You make valid points.
We also sign most templates.
The "It ain't my job" attitude a lot of people display doesn't go very far with me, It tells me they're either to damn lazy or stupid to do their job with quality and professionalism.
I find that statement ironic; especially if applied to the op. I feel it was his responsibility to make sure the fabricator was doing what he needed.
Regards
[email protected]
To me it depends a little on if the orginal poster is a homeowner who just wanted new countertops or if he's the GC of a kitchen remodel.
If he's the GC he should have know better, or lacks experience. When we take a job as a GC it is our repsonsibility to know enough about all the different aspects of a given project to make them all work together.
I don't need to know everything about everything, though it would be nice ;)
What I do need to know is how different systems, products, and surfaces will interact with each other and what effects what and how so I can guide the project through completion with a mininum number of problems. I also expect my trade contractors to bring potential problems to my attention rather then ignore them.
If I'm a homeowner and I hire some one to replace my countertops I expect them to know enough to do a good job and not have to babysit.
I do not expect my clients to tell me how to do a particular job because they probably have no clue anyway. They tell me what they want, I tell them how much and then make it work and look good at the end.
I'm still curious about the rest of this story, is this guy the homeowner, a contractor, did he hire a real installer or a box store etc.
I'll give the short version. Or at least the longer short version. I'm a homeowner who is doing my own kitchen remodel. I hire professionals for the work I don't know how to or can't do. As far as buying the countertop. I went through Lowe's, who contracts with a local fabricator, one of the largest in the area. The templater did not make me aware of any unusual conditions in the wall or that they would not be able to scribe to the wall. He didn't ask what kind of backsplash was being used. He just came in, did his templating and left. And, no, I did not stand over him and watch what he was doing. Since this has been going on, there have been two people that have come out to look at the countertop from the fabricator and both have indicated that the condition is not acceptable. The problem seems to be back at the main office, where the "higher ups" basically say it's our problem. From my perspective, based on what I know about countertop installation, they messed up the job and don't want to stand behind their work. However, my knowledge is limited, which is one of the reasons I posted the problem. The other reason, is to find out where to go from here. I can't leave the job unfinished and was trying to find out what needs to be done.Whether it's considered "whining" by some, I've paid thousands for a professional job and I expect one. I'm funny that way. I don't expect perfection and if it were an eighth out or so, I wouldn't worry about it. The amount just seemed excessive to me, which is another reason I posted, to find out what the pros had to say. If, after talking with the pros, I felt I was being unreasonable, I would "quit my whining" and move on. The main thing to me is that the job get done right and that the fabricator stand behind his work as per industry standard.
Edited 1/18/2008 8:23 am ET by DcE
Is the counter out 3/8" pretty consistently or just in one area?
Is is something that could be floated out and not show, or is there a finished end where the gap shows?
What does your contract say?
I work in some pretty old crooked houses. 3/8" isn't great, but it can usually be fixed.
I have had more than one counter ripped out for unacceptable workmanship though.
granite tops in our area (northeast PA) are not scribe fitted to wavy walls.
the fabricators will tell you that if you ask them.
when they scribe they are attempting to ensure that the tops are cut to whatever angles are correct.
we rarely work with quartz, but i am sure they follow the same rules.
if your problem involves a wavy wall, then you have a problem.
if it is an issue with the top being consistently 3/8" away from a wall, well then the installer has a problem.
one of the "tricks" we use in wavy wall situations is having the top installers "bury" the back of the top into the wall by removing plaster or drywall.
if i was the foreman on the job i would have fully discussed the backsplash material with the installers prior to templating.
carpenter in transition
Just speaking on general principle, I would think that a counter guy could fairly easily grind away a spot to compensate for a "high" spot in the wall. Much more difficult to scribe the entire length to compensate for "low" spots (and "low" spots are much more easily handled with other techniques).
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Well one of the up-sides to dealing with a big box store is there size and the pull they will have with the fabricator.
Have you contacted Lowes, and not just the lady or guy who sold you the c-top, but the store manager to voice your concerns?
Also, have you paid your final bill? You will have some leverage if you still owe them money.
If the gap is mid-counter and not on a finished end, probably the best approach is to float the low spot or spots. That might mean refinishing drywall above splash to bottom of uppers. If that's the case, maybe regroup and look at full height splash as an option.
Even if they scribe the top to fit wall, your splash will look better if it's not undulating, particularly if you can sight down it's length. To bad nobody checked the wall, but at this point I'd roll with it and maybe hold back some payment to vender if possible.
Remodels nearly always present roll-with-punch problems. Sounds like company you dealt with isn't much help, either. Sometimes gotta decide when to cut loose a headache, and forge ahead.
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
" From my perspective, based on what I know about countertop installation, they messed up the job and don't want to stand behind their work. However, my knowledge is limited, which is one of the reasons I posted the problem. The other reason, is to find out where to go from here. I can't leave the job unfinished and was trying to find out what needs to be done.Whether it's considered "whining" by some, I've paid thousands for a professional job and I expect one. I'm funny that way. I don't expect perfection and if it were an eighth out or so, I wouldn't worry about it. The amount just seemed excessive to me, which is another reason I posted, to find out what the pros had to say. If, after talking with the pros, I felt I was being unreasonable, I would "quit my whining" and move on. "I am in the middle of doing what you are doing, remodeling the kitchen and sub'ed out the counter. Your gap seems excessive to me also. My example...On our counter, We have a 15' length with a 12' leg and 3' leg coming off the ends, and the 12'leg has an 8' peninsula coming off it at its other end. The walls are not perfect by any stretch. Our guy took his time scribing & templating and when he installed it the largest gap was about 1/16" at the end of the 12' run toward the peninsula and 1/16" at the 15' / 3' corner for about 12". He asked about the tile backslash we would be using while scribing and even came back to measure its thickness himself when we picked out the samples.I don't think you are being unreasonable, 3/8" seems way too wide for a scribed template.
"I went through Lowe's..."
Now you realize your problem. Next time, deal with a real countertop company. Oh, but I'll bet it was cheeper!
probably couldn't get anyone else to come out. go to the store manage he will take care of it.
Pete,
Going through lowes and receiving a bad job is not as simple an answer as you make it sound. Lowes doesn't have a fab shop of their own and the fab shop that does their work does not have them as their only customer.
Here in Toledo a very good solid surface company that I use also has Lowes as an account. You're going to get the same top from them as you would from me. However, from me you're going to end up satisfied. I'll know b/4hand if any corrective measures need taken prior to templating. Further, I'll make sure the templater has all the pertinent info-sink, faucet, splash info, proper finished ends and overhangs. He'll tell me any special needs as far as ledgers etc. When the top comes I'll be there during install to take care of anything that comes up.
Doing your (his) own remodel and acting as the contractor has it's responsibilities and that's where any savings can be had. We don't get paid for nothing.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
wait - I thought I could just hire all my own contractors to work on my house while I'm away making money at my regular gig and all these contractors would do excellent work! Why would I need you!! :-)
One thing that I don't think has been asked or answered is if the OP has paid in full for the CT. Maybe I missed it...
Matt, all his own SUB-contractors.
That could be the problem.
I have no doubt that my subs-notably plumbing, electrical and paint-sometimes drywall, do a good job individually. That is why I hire them.
Still, all the separate pcs are put together by me-the contractor of the whole job. I will anticipate and correct any of the excuses that could be used by any sub prior to and during their work. That's the difference. I am the man. The buck stops here........and all the rest of the cliche's. If that's worth some money, then they hire me for the whole enchilada. If they want to save that amount, and even use the same subs, they might indeed have some problems. And maybe not.
That is the #### shoot. Wanna take a chance? Best of luck.
Back to the original poster-If there are any 3/8's gaps it is not acceptable. If caused by the site conditions, it should have been seen and accounted BEFORE the templating. At the very least, during the template and a solution figured out at that time. If that top you have has air everywhere, then you should be expecting either the installer to tighten it up so it's touching somewhere which should tighten up that 3/8's. or, remuneration to compensate you coming up with a way to hide it. A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal: It was a joke... I guess you probably don't recognize my name and/or remember what I do for a living: construction management. I have good subs too. And I have them trained as to what is expected and what I won't put with. They know I run a tight ship and I think they respect me for that. I don't run a absentee operation though. It's always about 100 times easier to correct a problem when it happens or at least before the sub leaves the job.
Matt, I remember and tried to write the response in such a way as to show that, but I guess I failed. There's some difference in our jobs. I own the company-####, I am the company.
And I'm on site all the time.
After that, your job description mirrors mine as far as the management of the job.
Who could forget you?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Actually I wasn't entirely sure what the underlying meaning (if any) of your post was - I read it about 3 times.... The limitations of communicating with a keyboard... :-)
As far as you are the company - I appreciate that. In my case when it's "oh sh.. someone chipped the bathtub" it doesn't get into my wallet... In your case it's one less meal out for your family... Still, I try to spend my bosses money like it were my own but true enough, I don't loose sleep over it.
BTW - I remember when you told me (I think it was you) that rusty nail spots on a fiberglass bath tub were an indication of a poorly run job... I've changed my procedures so that doesn't happen any more :-)
That was me with the rust spots.
And probably I didn't convey the meaning there any better than I seem to be doing recently.
It was a case of someone not thinking-getting the screws/nails in there in the first place and then most likely-someone not noticing the problem happening-the rusting. You as a project manager of I'm sure more than one project have a very difficult job. You can't be there all the time keeping your eyes open. You I'm sure keep tabs on the progress and quality but that rust could happen overnight.
After chewing the #### out of the drywall sub I'm thinking you maybe reminded the lead that his eyes are oftentimes yours.
And, by now you probably have applied a protective shield of lift the cardboard every time you walk in a new bathroom.
So, what's your plans to do with the new Bush Rebate?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I don't know about the rebate... sounds like a "elect the republican's" ploy....
Re the bathtubs you are close - the coatings are too expensive though for fiberglass tubs. They should just come with cheap thin plastic liners. I used to have the plumbers leave the water in them, because I thought that it help protect them. Stopped doing that. Bitch at the DW guys not to leave screws & nails in there and remove any I see - I check - every tub and shower. I also put cardboard in there, but I doubt that it helps. Most chips occur on the outside corners like where vertical come up and goes horizontal. I've now got a cheap tub repair man. Of course, CI is a different scenario.
A good relationship with a tub doctor is a very good thing.
You know, I've struggled with tubs on site for ever. You leave 'em open and you've got to keep them clean so maybe they'll get the respect they deserve. You put a pc of cardboard in there and "someone" loses a screw under it and then you deal with that thing getting ground in w/o being seen. They send a plumber that a). can't keep from dropping his channellocks or b.) wears those deep cleated shoes and has a small stone driveway.
This job mgmt isn't all the glory that it's painted up to be.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yea - my old plumber had a guy who had one of those square faced "duck" hammers - an estwing I think. I once witnessed him chip a fiberglass tub with his hammer while driving in the mounting nails. I ended up getting a whole new plumbing company, not for that specific reason, but in generally I felt their guys wern't that conscientious... Like the way they slopped purple primer on concrete floors - garage floors... pi$$ed me off...
lots of headaches to deal with....
PS, re: "who could forget you" . Thanks - but besides all the really great people I know, I guess I can think of some real unforgettable A-holes too... :-)
I'm somewhat confused by your response. But I believe you're agreeing with me.
But from a starry-eyed newby HO, believing they can get top quality at a discount from the big boxes only shows their ignorance of the industry and these retailers.
For the HO:
The stone has a price. It's quite unlikey Lowes or HD are getting a better price on material than the fab shop. Like Calvin says, they have no facilities of their own, they sub it out.
The retailer has to be competitive. He expects a big discount from the fabber so's the retailer can make that big profit he's used to.
The fab work has a cost. Perhaps in a perfect world, there may be some discount on it for a big referral source, with the fabber thinking the discount will be made up in volume. But do these fabbers really get THAT much volume to make up for the giveaway? These retailers are not really kind about their expectations.
Bottomline, The fabber has to cut costs somewhere to regain his profitability. How's he gonna do that? His costs are the same across the board, save for his advertising (marketing) costs, some of which should now be picked up by the retailer. But how many fabbers have marketing departments, salespeople, advertising? And how much volume really comes form the box?
The quality is cut accordingly.
As Calvin says, you buy from him, you get satisfied. You buy from the big box, you get ignored, passed over, forgotten about, and unhappy. That sweet arrangement you thought you had loses its reality when you have to spend hours and hours fighting with the retailer and big box both.
The fab work has a cost. Perhaps in a perfect world, there may be some discount on it for a big referral source, with the fabber thinking the discount will be made up in volume. But do these fabbers really get THAT much volume to make up for the giveaway? These retailers are not really kind about their expectations.
Our local HD has pretty much burned through the local source of fabricators and nearly helped the starry eyed owners go under in the process.
You see, when you have a very good base of contractors feeding you jobs and you decide that you can also supply HD's needs, something is going to break.
For one, all those contractors finding out that you are selling your service and product to HD for LESS than they are used to paying you...............effectively enabling HD to undersell the contractors installed price = a bunch of really po'd contractors that are going to start moving all that work to another fabricator.
Add to that the lead time for the contractors has now increased becuse HD is putting on the pressure. Just another reason for the GC's to move on.
And what do you think happens to the quality that once was?
And what is the fabricator left with when all the GC's have moved on and HD finds a better deal than you?
Oops.......it's called greed, and it will bite you in the azz every time.[email protected]
It seems like things in your area are similar to here. A good fabricator/installer is hard to find.The fabricator I always dealt with has a slick setup. The templater sets up a series of little targets, and photographs them with a digital camera. I'm not exactly certain how it works, but it's accurate enough that the CNC router cuts the counter to an ideal fit, maybe 1/8" at most. The outfit does Corian, quarz, granite, what-have-you, and they are all-around excellent.The system might have limitations that I'm not familiar with, but all the installations I saw would have looked fine before tile.I had the uncomfortable experience of working with a different fabricator on one occasion. He measured the cabinets manually, and made a number of notation errors that I caught before he left. If it had been up to him, the counter could have been fabricated with the wrong edge profile, wrong splash height, and a couple of incorrect dimensions. I couldn't believe that was his job.Unnerving, in a remodel context.Edited 1/18/2008 9:33 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Edited 1/18/2008 9:34 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Wow.
You just pissesd off a Scorpio. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Neil?
Shoot, my ex is a Scorpio; she's still pissed 20yrs later![email protected]
See?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I'm not pissed at all, not by a long shot.
Most of this conversation is based on speculation anyway, who knows what the other side of the story is?
Here's my 2 cents.
The templater could have/should have pointed out the issue to you IF you were there when the template was done. Then again, if you were there, YOU would have noticed.
I've seen a couple hundred ct's templated and installed. Most companies I have ever dealt with use 4 inch stips of luan ply laid out on the cabinets and hot glue them together. Mark details like finished ends, edges and radius' (radii?) toss them in the truck and off they go.
If you or the installer were to "let" the countertop into the sheetrock as some here have suggested, you would lose the correct overhang dimension at the front of the base cabinets, unless it was planned for in advance by fabricating an extra deep top.
I have NEVER seen a solid surface top scribed to a wavy wall. Let in yes and slightly.
In your case you might be able to steal half of the gap by pushing the ct into the sheetrock. But you will still have a wavy wall that even after that ni$e tile is put on is going to look like ####.
Time to get the Durabond out and float the walls flat(ter).
Take the responsibility upon yourself for this and stop trying to place the blame on the wrong party.
Eric
[email protected]
Another option might be to install the tile backsplash at an angle larger than 90 degrees to the counter. This will enable it to cover a larger gap. I saw a laminate counter done like that and it looked good.
D,
I meant you no harm in my posts to you or Cag.
You should understand that the equipment used to cut these countertops is designed to make staight cuts, NOT curves. Think about that as you gaze down the long STRAIGHT line at the front edge of your top.
In all of my nearly 30 years in residential remodeling and building, I have never seen a stone or synthetic stone top scribed to fit a bad wall. And that is what you have, a bad wall.
Fix the walls or pay someone to do it for you. deduct the charge from what you owe Blowes if it will make you happy. This fabricator is selling his work to Lowes at MUCH less than he SHOULD charge you as a private client. He is even selling it to them for less than he charges contractors who keep track of things like you are having problems with. I'll bet you did not even know or contemplate the fact that Lowes was subbing out the work you paid them for.
Something to think about.
Remember, you got what you paid for which was the lowest price you could find. Chalk this up to experience. Next time ask the questions prior to, not after.
Again, not trying to hurt your feelings, just laying it out honest as I see it.
Eric
[email protected]
Edited 1/18/2008 9:30 pm ET by EricPaulson
In all of my nearly 30 years in residential remodeling and building, I have never seen a stone or synthetic stone top scribed to fit a bad wall
That seams odd to me. Around here the counter top will be made to fit the template, and the template will be made to fit to the wall! The two or three really good counter top places around hear make the top fit. Obviously if the top is getting a backsplash then the 3/8" gap is not going to be an issue but when there is no backsplash the top will be fit to the wall, or they will let it into the sheetrock, but the installers will do it.
Must be a regional thing.
Doug
I'll clarify what I stated.
They template using 4" strips of luan. They do not sribe the waviness of the wall to the luan, but they will match out of sqaure if it is real bad. They push the luan strip to the wall and that is where it is set. As soon as it is against the wall everyone knows the condition of the wall and whether corrective measures need to be taken.
If it is real wavy, then they can add to the front overhang to allow the top to be let into the wall and still maintain correct overhangs.[email protected]
That's what they would do here too. Maybe one place out of the five or so we've used would scribe to the wall, and their quality is exceptional, but you pay a big premium for them.
If you've ever been in a stone shop and seen the equipment they use, you can appreciate why straight lines are much quicker and easier for them to cut. You pay extra for curved front edges (like a bar overhang), why wouldn't you have to pay extra for a wavy back edge too?
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Eric
They template using 4" strips of luan.
Around here I noticed the two better shops switched to this type of plastic(for lack of the proper term, comes in rolls and lays flat) and they do sorta scribe it to the wall. By sorta I'm sure that they weigh their options and do what it takes to get a proper installation, if that means letting it into the sheetrock or scribing it they do it. I don't mean to imply that they do it for free, they don't and they shouldn't. As Mike M. pointed out, there is a price for top of the line work - as well there should be.
I don't necessarily feel that HOers are trying to get something for nothing but they are kind-of in the dark when it comes to their expectations for quality. They go into Lowes/HD and the stuff on the showroom floor looks good so of course they are going to get the same quality look for less then a GC can give them! I'm sure that you have customers that you consider "high end", those people know that they are not going to get high end work at Lowes, they know that to get that they have to pay, and most of them are willing to do so.
Doug
Here, for templating, they often use this stuff that is plastic but similar in form to corrugated cardboard. Kind of like some types of cheap sign board.
We call it Plasti-core. And it's not terribly cheap, 5-6 bucks a sheet.
I wish we could get it in 10' lenghts.
Makes a better template IMO then glued up luan b/c you can scribe it easier and it's less likely to fall apart or get damaged in transport
At this stage I'd just float some mud onto the wall to flatten it out. There's probably some sort of mesh you can tack in place to help hold the mud in place for that thickness.
Or you can cut the drywall out, shim the studs, and replace the drywall.
Remember that, since you're tiling, the wall doesn't need to be smooth, just flat.