My wife would like me to build her a walled-in raised bed in the back yard using all of the rocks she has dug up while planting…
The rocks range in size from baseball to almost basketball (This stuff, mixed with a little sand, is what passes for soil here…) Is there a book out there that deals with this type of masonry construction? Everything I was able to find at the library dealt with brick and block only.
I’m certainly willing to experiment and knock it apart with a sledge if it looks like sh%t later…
Any recommendations for mortar type, etc. would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
Replies
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-keywords=stone%20wall%20construction&search-type=ss&bq=1/102-2095231-1806529
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
All right, smart guy... : )
I know how to do a google search or look at amazon....
Anybody have any *personal experience* with a book they would recommend.
Thanks again.
-Kit
Is there a book out there that deals with this type of masonry construction? Everything I was able to find at the library dealt with brick and block only.
:) Wasn't trying to be a smart ####, and you would be surprised how many people ask questions here and either can not or do not look on the internet first.
Good luck, there are a lot of books I've seen, not read, at B&N and Borders on dry wall stone wall construction.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
You're soooo funny you do it without even trying CAG!
This is the internet!
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
all right smartazz lol
This may be a part of the internet, a site on the internet, but this is hardly THE internet,
I swear I answer at least on question a week where someone is looking something, and I find it in 5 minutes or less of searching.
Doesn't bother me, some people don't know there way around or not familiar with how to find things quickly, but a lot of people just don't look either.
By the way you like the dry-wall stone construction, ya gotta use 2" fine thread SR screws to hold it all together though...
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Edited 5/1/2003 9:54:54 PM ET by CAG
"By the way you like the dry-wall stone construction, ya gotta use 2" fine thread SR screws to hold it all together though..."
excuse me mR CAG but you use DRY WALL screws for this purpose
SHEET ROCK screws are only used when the rock is in "sheets" , you know flat on both sides!
boy have to watch the advise you get.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's BT Forum cheat sheet
Knew there was a joke there someplace, Just didn't get it first time around..
Excellence is its own reward!
What Piffin said . But you can also lay them up with out a form . I would make the back side smooth (flat) with mortar before back fill . that way there will be fewer places for the freeze thaw to crack the wall.
Maybe even like the pebble dash stucco effect but with monster PEBBLES!! Just don't throw them at the prebuilt wall, place them in the applied mortar bed, and they will stack up nice.
That gives me an idea. form a slab , pour concrete then place stones tilt up next monthinto a trench. Wall done.
That's pretty much how tilt-up panels (LARGE) are done.
Formed flat, sometimes in dedicated forms, and quite often in forms on the poured and finished floor of the building under construction. Then tilted up by crane into vertical position, braced and tied together.
If you go that route, be aware that whatever you do it will be heavy (HEAVY). So heavy, in fact, that you should consider pouring a separate foundation and then tying in the tilt-ups. Don't forget to put in some rebar in the pour (both the foundation and the tilt-up slab) and a couple of embedded lifting points along the top edge.
thanks to you all for the advice, except for that smart as$ cag ; )
this is a small thing, emphasis on small. it will probably end up being 4 x 10, walls 18" high or so...I live in vegas, so freeze-thaw is not a problem. will print out these replies and try to find some books at the bookshop.
i may just go to it. experimentation is how i started woodworking anyway.
besides, i can always knock it out with a sledge.
good for the heart...
-kit
"besides, i can always knock it out with a sledge.
good for the heart..."
But hard on the toes.
But Ralph his wall is only going to be 18 in high he could pour it on the ground at about 28 in. ,dig a trench about 10 in. deep at the base and tip it in . hook it to the pickup and pull ? something that small would not take too much power. He could even use F*rd . I would dig under the base so that the 10" part was cantalevered over the hole and tip up with a pry bar . Realy I would use my loader and pick it up and place in a trench . I don't think that a small wall would need a footing poured before hand as it could be formed into the tip upand then just the corners would need attachments.
Are these round like baseballs and basketballs too?
Excellence is its own reward!
yes, they are round. pretty much like river rock...
HEY. BUDDY,
as far as building info goes,
I'll have you know that this is too,
'The Internet'.
First step is make sure you really love DW.
Second, wash all the stones with water and stiff brush. Soak each in piffins 20:1 muriatic acid:water for 10-15mins, rinse.
Layup: work from corners to middle, in a stairstep fashion. Drystack two layers about 4' long, use pebbles for shims. Dismantle first half, remembering where each stone goes, using masons mortar, remantle first 2'. drystack 2' more. Repeat as needed. After 2 layers, you can do 1 at a time. If the stones are porous (sp), soak for a couple a mins and let surface dry before using.
After mortar has set, but before it's dry (1/2 to 2 hours,) go back with stiff brushes, water, and sponges and remove unwanted mortar. (I like those $.99 paint brushes, cut the bristle to 1/2" long, several sizes and the paint sponges-on-a-handle.)
7 days after the wall is done, use the same 20:1 acid mix and wash and water rinse the whole thang. Beeeeyootifuull
My daddy did one o' those walls, he din't do so good tho. 50 years later 'bout half the cap stones had come loose.
If you do get much weather, be sure to use some kind of cap. Flagstones, pavers or some such to keep most water out of mortar.
Be aware that there are at least 50 ways to do this. you'll find about half of those here on 'the internet'.
Have fun, good luck, and get DW to give you back rubs.
hehehe
SamT
Unless you plan on pouring a footing don't use mortar, dry lay the stone and put together like a puzzle with sloping back into hill.
My library has several books on stone work. You need to look under stonemason, stone walls, rock walls, etc.
Here is a company that has a lot of surplus and shopworn books. Look under DIY and the Garden Features and Stonework and Masory.
Danusan has the right idea. What you are building here is basically a retaining wall. you will have a more durable and more beautiful wall if you do NOT use mortar. Slope the stones back toward the higher side of the bed. Let the spaces between them act as pressure relief valves for the water to escape through. The kind of soil that you describe is excellent for this application. You may want to build up some compost and other enriched soils in the bed area but the sandy gravel will be excellent as a liner for the bed, anchored by the weight of the stones. Use a coarse sand similar to the way you would mortar to fill around the stones and seat them solidly. You make sort of a little nest for each one and then wiggle him into it until he forms a nice fit. Done this way your wall will outlast the finest mortar work and when repairs are needed it is a matter of an hour or two to repair a section which will then look as good as new again (not doable with a mortared wall).
Edited 5/3/2003 1:09:31 AM ET by Clay
I'm going to disagree with alll the advice here about a drylaid wall. This is why I started with asking what kind of stone they were. Round smooth river rock won't stack up and stay there any better than you can build a stack of basketballs in the middle of the gym floor and expecvt it to stay there.
For the type of material available and the experience of the owner, I'm thinking that a slipform method would be best for this wall system.
Look for slipform in masonry books. It is also adressed in Backwoods, Homsteading, and other Mother earth type magazines.
Basially, you trench in for a footing and form up walls about 1-1/2 to two feet high. Pour the bottom 8" with rebar and concrete for integrity and then start stacking stone to the outside of the forms and placing mortar at joints to hold them in place. If you need a taller wall slip the forms up higher to keep going.
Done right, the mortar will hold the round stones in place but it will look like a dry laid wall..
Excellence is its own reward!
I gotta agree with piffin.
One can't stack bowling balls and expect them to stay up.
You gotta cut them, split them, or get different stones. What you got is fill (or large aggragate) for the concrete foundation needed to keep the thing from falling over next spring. Spheres are not building material.
"Round smooth river rock won't stack up and stay there any better than you can build a stack of basketballs in the middle of the gym floor and expecvt it to stay there."
Logically, I agree with your statement. But it leaves me wondering how they built all those beautiful river-rock chimneys on bungalows back in the 1910s-20s. Round here, there's plenty of them still standing (and functioning) after 70-odd years.
Any info on construction techniques used on those chimneys?
Mortar rock mortar rock mortar till they had a chimney.
A lot of the time, when a rock doesn't stack dry, even with mortar you need to support it while the mortar kicks. That means that the wall will only be as strong as the mortar but that's ok for such a short wall.
Round smooth rock can be held in place while mortar kicks by using tie wire and then using pointed side cutters to nip the wire off in a day or two..
Excellence is its own reward!
I'll file the wire and pliers tip at the back of my brain for when, if ever, I get to build my dream bungalow.
Interestingly, there's a lot of low retaining walls, as well as chimneys, built of river rock around here. While the chimneys have held up fine, the walls have mostly cracked and collapsed, probably due to the lateral pressure of what they're holding back. On the other hand, imagine the vertical pressure on a single stone at the base of a river-rock chimney--amazing they don't just pop out eventually!
vanderpooch.... samt described the process to a "t"...
this is river -rock construction... a lot of "arts & crafts" and bugalow architecture uses it...
there's a whole village built that way in Medicine Park, Ok... and in almost every resort area from the twenties.. from the catskills to the puget sound..
go back to samt's post and follow his directions...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=30288.10
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've built them as well out of Flat rock as well as round or igneous field stone. I have to say that retaining walls are all about building in layers. Bottom is biggest heaviest rock. about 1/2 burried. Also about 100 lbs each. Hire a neighbor kid to help you do the heavy stuff.
Each layer needs to be backfilled and tamped hard then lay on the next layer. I put mortar on mine only to increase the friction. I knew it would crack with frost etc. Type N Mortar. Keep on filling each layer with rocks mortar and backfilled with dirt. I don't know how you'd get re-rod in there I tried chicken wire and the results are iffy. I'd say you need to lay the rock as if there was no mortar.
Very important is to have it leaning back about 1 to 2 inches per course. Otherwise it will dump over with the frost or heavy rains. This is government work... meaning slope is important for drainage, and cracks in the mortat are strategically placed to drain the soil ;-)
Muriatic acid is important to shine them up for the mortar to stick. Clean the excess moss and mud like stated before, with a broom (brush) and the acid. Keep your skin away.
After the acid rinses off and becomes normal PH you can doctor the wall up by making a cocktail out of cheap flat beer and the green moss you find growing in the woods. Take the live (not peat) moss and put it in the blender with the flat beer and whip it up a bit. Then pour it on the rock face of your wall. Repeat as necessary. eventually it will look like a standard mossy rock wall you find in an old hedgerow. Some real furry moss and some just a patina. The moss reproduces in the beer media. You get all of the good stuff growing to make your mortar joints disappear.
Last bit of reflection is that there aren't many good masonry books out there. I've searched for over a decade and the pickings are slim. It is as if the only people who write them are the inspectors. Heavy on footings and straight lines but nothing that gets to the essence of the media. I always figured the real masons wore off their fingerprints in the mortar and can't type their thoughts.