*
Actually, gentlement, R 2000 is seriously out
of date and you will fing in Ontario that
the Homebuilders Association admits this. Canada
is on hold while R 3000 is currently being
written.
You will do much better to look into the
Advanced House model which exceeds R 2000
performance.
Tedd
A standardized approach, quick-to-install hardware, and a simplified design make building custom casework cost-effective.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
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I'm a (Hands on? Oohhhh, yes) builder/renovator in Nova Scotia. My opinion is that you shouldn't get too too excited over R2000. As was pointed out, it's soon to be superseded, anyway, but, for years the program has been promoting houses that I wouldn't expect to outlast their mortgages. Sure, they'll be nice and warm - until they fall down.
The most common structure is 2x6 studs @ 24" with extruded foam insulation board, Tyvek and vinyl siding outside that. Diagonal bracing is whatever few steel T-braces can be installed clear of window and door openings. When you get to the roof with a hundred or so bundles of shingles and five or six men, you have to be careful not to move in unison or the house will sway. And noise...well, you can carry on a conversation between inside and out with slightly raised voices even after the house is drywalled.
Canadian B&E men all have vinyl zip tools, now, because that's all it takes to get into a house silently.
I have heard, too, that some of the earlier houses are showing damage around the rim joists and headers because they hadn't refined the vapour sealing in that area or hadn't accounted for drywall hangers and their tendency to slash or chop anything in their way - like a lump caused by several folds of poly. In a highly insulated house, a gap in the vapour barrier means a vapour concentration and condensation in the insulation.
Still, everybody in the construction trades here has learned something from the program about vapour sealing and reducing heat loss. And, as my partner points out, there's going to be a lot of low cost housing on the market in about 20 years.
I'd rather build with ICF.
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Ron,
Glad to have your thoughts here...We need more people who have actual experience to sign in...
Put a sponge in a zip lock bag, slit the bag and punch a couple holes in it, then set on a wet counter...the sponge will get wet...Now take the wetted sponge in the same bag and put in on a dry counter and call me when the sponge finally dries...
Lobsters traps, roach hotels....one way in and no way out...
Near the stream,
J
*All ya gotta do, is leave a site unattended for a day and the bozo's are out playing.To all the recent writers, BULLSH**.The R-2000 program in not in jeopardy, it is as I indicated from the very start evolving.Visit http://energy-publications.nrcan.gc.ca./index_e.cfmThis site also answers most of your questions about air exchanges as well.Any two bit contractor who claims to have hands on experiences with R-2000 and makes comments like our friend from Nova Scotia is lying and was never a licenced builder of R-2000 homes or lost his licence for incompetence.
*Lets have some more good debate here both with good things to say and with problems people are seeing...Please all do not engage or take the flaming from a very few personally...Let's keep it going as if the flames do not exist...Thanks for everyone's insights so far!Peace, love and groovieness, by the stream,Your gentle moderator,J
*Gabe- thanks for the link, I am looking forward to see how it developed over the years since I last looked into it.Ron
*
Such anger! Directed at me?
These things don't happen in a gentle business like mine. I'm not a licenced R2000 builder and have never claimed to be one. I know people who are and who work for these people and I know their work. Like most workers who have any self-respect, they try to do a decent job. What I was saying was that the standards for R2000 and for local building codes permit the construction of houses that are just plain flimsy. Frighteningly flimsy. I've been on some of these roofs. Make you seasick on a bad day.
I am also aware that R2000 standards can be met with solid houses - like ICF's- but, if you're building a spec house you're not going to want to spend the extra five or ten percent to get rock solid. The cachet of an R2000 tag on a house seems to add saleability, but not much to the price.
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Good Evening Ron,
No it was just accidential cross fire. But you probably have some appreciation of what goes on in the trenches. In the world of spec. writers, there is a ongoing battle between those that abuse a system, meant to improve construction practices and those who try to improve the system in order to protect the consumer.
A properly built house, in any jurisdiction, will surpass any code. The R-2000 program comes closest to the ideal in this point in time.
*
Hi Gentlemen,
I see there is some interest in R2000 housing. I live in what purports to be an R2000 house built in 1994 by a licensed R2000 builder. My location is 3500' up the western slope of the Rockies in BC. I'd be pleased to discuss construction techniques and answer any questions you may have.
I perused with interest the post from Ron the builder/renovator in Nova Scotia. Well, thats the other side of the continent....I guess they have different standards there.
b It sure isnt like that here.
Rod
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Gabe, in case you missed it, Jack asked a question as to your occupation. Inquiring minds want to know. Aside from your literary talents, do you build houses?
Dennis
*Good day Dennis,Yes you're right, Jack did ask the question, however, I had already answered that question months ago.I think it's healthy for inquiring minds to have some questions unanswered. It keeps some on their guards. I'm semi-retired, which means that I only work on projects that I like. I also own several companies ranging from marketing cnstruction related products to technical audits for litigation. I lobby for higher standards in construction and I'm presently designing a housing concept for the working poor. My professional designation is Gold Seal Certified ICI Project Manager. My portfolio includes over 500 homes, and 1/2 billion dollars worth of commercial projects. What all this means is that I am qualified to know that FredL doesn't know his as* from his nose, when it relates to construction.
*Questions to those who Know: 1) How much better (or not) is POLY at retarding VAPOR OR MOISTURE OR ??? than DRYWALL given the exact same amount of care in sealing them up and using the same methods of measurement. 2) Same question only sub these words for the capitalized ones: CELLS, CONDUCTION, FIBERGLASS.Thank you, as far as I can tell on the consumer end, R2000 is promoted as a standard for energy efficiency, more than a higher standard of building so the answers to my questions are very pertinent, that is if anybody really knows, which would not surprise me after reading all the flame wars and other crapola from the builders and non builders of these houses. So come on you building scientists and big men of the trade, show me the gun or get out of my store.
*Thanks. I am a DYI and not familiar with ICI. A little help please.Dennis
*Gabe,And we are supposed to trust you because of this? I trust you about as far as I can throw an IT manager who wants to sell me a WinNT solution.Steve
*Go Novell!!!!!!!!!
*Hi Dennis,ICI stands for Industrial, Commercial, Institutional construction.
*Hi Steve,No, under no circumstances should you or any one else trust me for this alone.What it means is that, I have heard it all before. What it means is that, I have the experience in my profession that you claim to have in yours. If I wanted information about computer systems, I would seriously consider to what you had to say before making up my mind.I have no problem with you converting your entire house to DP celulose, what I have is someone, who proffesses to know all about construction, trying to pull the wool over the eyes of DIYs in order to profit.I don't write any differently than you would hear at any construction site meeting between owners, architects, engineers, consultants, builders, subtrades and suppliers.In our trade, we don't have time to beat around the bush. We say what we mean and we mean what we say.If it offends you, get over it, life is too short to waste time not getting to the point.
*No offense taken Gabe,I actually am glad to know what it is that you do. I think you take yourself a little too seriously though. I think you've seen a lot, but that your mind is nearly closed at this point. That is when the learning stops. I claim to know nothing. I just ask a lot of stupid questions then try to decide from there. My computer analogy was to point out that professional consultants often get in a rut and cannot see past what they have prescribed a thousand times before, and therefore I take anything a "professional" tells me as a good measure of what the accepted conventional wisdom is. I take it with a very large grain of salt.Steve
*uh-oh . . .
*Dan, Fear not.Steve
*RodThey're not gonna beg. . . so unload the details before this thread gets archived!!!
*
*I and many others would like to hear about this program and learn of it's merits in both saving in fuel costs, economy in building, difficulties involved, longevity of components, ability to protect wood structure from rot and ice dams, and lastly quality of indoor air.Lets all particapate politely as possible respecting our differences and tell a few good jokes if you have nothing nice to say!!!!Crossing my fingers, near the stream,J
*I read about the R200 program quite a while ago - was turned off by the high price of the manual, etc. - I was still in grad school and supporting myself.I was curious though about the "certification" issue - does the R2000 program include or provide for independent testing of each house? And what percentage of houses in Canada are actually certified? I'd really like to learn more about the testing procedures and methods utilized for the completed unit.
*The R-2000 program began nearly 20 years ago and was co-authored by Build America's Joe Lstiburek.The R-2000 program was not a revolution in construction but an evolution in standards, products and designs. The current motto of Eliminate, Ventilate and Seal is applied to all new designs.The qualifications for R-2000 builders is of the highest quality and rigidly controlled. All builders, materials and products used in an R-2000 house must be approved. Many of the new modifications to our building code reflect the influence of the Program.When the program was first initiated, the energy requirements for a typical home was reduced by 30 to 50%.Today's focus is towards healthy homes and air quality. Products are tested for off gassing and air exchange is paramount.In the past, there has been many comments about poly. In a R-2000 home the poly must be continuous to be effective. All exterior electrical boxes, wall and ceilings, are wrapped in poly by the electrician, during installation, with sufficient overlap to allow for sealing to the main poly that will be installed by the insulation crew. An R-2000 house does not depend on drywall to seal the house.Proper construction methods and sequence make the construction process, efficient and cost effective. The flow of trades does not require special considerations.The cost of a R-2000 home is about 5% more than a conventional house, but not only is it of higher quality, but resells easier.
*How are "The qualifications for R-2000 builders is of the highest quality and rigidly controlled."? Are there required courses or training? Are there certificates or licenses for the "approved" builders? Are there independtent diagnostic inspections?Similarily, how are "All builders, materials and products used in an R-2000 house must be approved."? Who approves? What do I have to do to be a "R2000" builder?Thanks for sharing. Bill
*Howdy Bill,Your first paragraph, yes, yes and yes.Approval is done by various jurisdictions. The main common denominator in construction in Canada is Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) Product testing is by CSA,UL,NRC,Various testing Laboratories and Provincial Agencies having local jurisdictions.To be approved, builders must register,meet program standards, past testing requirements before they are considered. It's much harder to get Certified than it is to loose Certification.Not every builder who claims to build to R-2000 standards is actually Certified. Only houses built by Certified builders will be inspected and certified R2000.About 5 miles from here is Guildcrest Modular Homes, and they build them inside a factory for shipment all over the world.So the program is not restricted to site built homes.
*Gabe,From what little I have seen of late, it seems Joe L. has started to design homes with some of the features that Fred and Gene talk of...to decomplicate and make building homes even more attractive to US developers. Didn't someone here mention some of his latest Las Vegas and Chicago designs???Is Joe L still involved with R-2000 actively and isn't there of late a second generation R-2000 Spec?And Lastly, would you explain a sample set of specs to build a R-2000 home.Near the stream,J
*Afternoon Jack,You're entering the zone where the waters part.Fred and Gene are having the opposite effect, essentially they have taken a basic concept and are complicating it with formulas that do not reflect reality, not satisfied with this, try to intimidate the meek neophyte with longer than required answers that contain little in actual nuts and bolts.With regards to Joe, I don't know what input he still has with the program.As I indicated earlier, the program is an evolution, so I don't consider is to be second generation. It is and has been an ongoing growing experience.The big picture is simply that the R-2000 program is not meant to make construction easier for developers, its meant to raise the bar and give them something to aim for. The R-2000 is consumer driven and smart builders adjust their methods of construction to reflect this.Another misnomer is that R-2000 is limited to Canadian Builders and nothing could be farther from the truth. There is an increasing number of American builders that are registered with the R2000 program in various Provinces and build these homes in the United States. R-2000 homes are also built in Japan and Europe.With regards to Specifications, I'm trying to find a condensed version to share with you, but you're going to have to give me time. Essentially, it's a complete building envelope, high efficiency windows and doors, high efficiency heating and cooling, very high air exchange, and extremely high building standards.
*Gabe,Thanks for the super answer in all respects. I look forward to the condensed specs posting.Until then, near the stream, and Hppy Easter,J
*Actually, gentlement, R 2000 is seriously outof date and you will fing in Ontario thatthe Homebuilders Association admits this. Canadais on hold while R 3000 is currently beingwritten. You will do much better to look into the Advanced House model which exceeds R 2000performance.Tedd
*Tedd,That's what I thought I had read....I asked Gabe about it and he said it just continually evolves...I have yet to see one post here from a person who owns an r-2000 home and am curious to what they would haveto add here...I also haven't found out if Gabe actually hands on builds homes...Gabe...what is your present job and what is your work history in construction anyway...for a poin of reference...Tedd, tell us more about the Advanced House Model...Near the stream,J
*Tedd,That's what I thought I had read....I asked Gabe about it and he said it just continually evolves...I have yet to see one post here from a person who owns an R-2000 home and am curious to what they would have to add here...I also haven't found out if Gabe actually hands on builds homes...Gabe...what is your present job and what is your work history in construction anyway...for a point of reference...Tedd, tell us more about the Advanced House Model...Near the stream,J
*An aquaintance of mine built an R2000 house about 1983. At the time there was quite a lot of monitoring conducted for the first year and if I remember corretly, he was not allowed to hang pictures on the outside walls for the first year lest he puncture the poly vapour barrier. Of course all R200 homes are not monitored that closely and I don't remember what the outcome of all the monitoring was, but, I do know this: he was almost capable of heating the house without outside energy if he had a decent bean dinner!One thing I am quite sure of though, he had vents in his attic!Cheers
*I am looking forward to seeing the specs too. The old specs that I looked at 15 or so years ago didn't go far enough in my opinion.