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Hello my wise and wonderous friends. This weekend I embark on a life lesson for my children. Read the directions!
Two weeks ago I finished tiling my newly remodeled kitchen floor. This kitchen is the end result of a half year’s labor after work and on weekends. I removed walls, moved gas and plumbing lines, built cabinets and countertops, ran new wiring, replaced appliances (turned an old bowling alley lane into an outstanding bar which frames three open sides of this FHB kitchen come true!), drywalled and painted, installed a new ceramic floor and managed to overlook the boldly printed warning on the mortar bag- NOT FOR USE OVER PLYWOOD UNDERLAYMENT.
So this weekend I will be taking up that beautiful floor. Evidently when the manufacturer wrote “NOT FOR …UNDERLAYMENT” they had some evidence to support their claim.
I intend to make the children help as it will demonstrate the importance of reading directions. If one of you kind souls could suggest a prefered manner of cleaning these tiles, I’ll be certain to have the children read and explain it to me.
Thanks for your help…
Replies
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Doug, just a little moral support.. i'll ask my tile guy... but my impression is that you just chuck em and start over.... but i been wrong before..
*Doug, I dont get it. What is happening to your floor?I've never used thinset mortar over plywood but certainly have seen it done. Are your tiles coming loose? good luck getting your kids to help, mine would disappear into the neighborhood till dark!jim
*Jim- the deal is I used a product called VERSABOND bonding mortar. It states right on the bag "NOT SUITABLE- hell you know what it says- anyway it bonded with the ceramic but not with the underlayment. Now when you walk across the floor the tile is able to move and the grout is coming loosening.I have laid several ceramic floors using THINSET and never had a problem. It didn't occur to me that this product would perform differently. Hence the life lesson "Read the directions."The kids will help, they like to eat...Thanks, Hubcap
*Mike, Thanks for the support. If your tile man has anything helpful to say I,d love to here it.If I ask mine he will laugh at me and then tell every contractor I have ever worked with what a dumbass I am and soon I will be the butt of endless internet jokes. You can see the predicament I'm in.( I am thirty six and this is the first mistake I can remember making.)Anyway, Any info you can pass on will be great.P.S. read your post to the guy about removing ceiling joists, very thorough. You are to be commended.
*Well, not to add to the strength of those internet jokes (ya, like a contractor never screwed up once in their much longer building careers)...Is your sub-floor is stiff enough for tile as is? Maybe VERSABOND just saved your butt from an even bigger mistake.
*Scott has a good point. In the past, I have encountered a couple of folks who have committed the same error (Haw haw, snort, hey honey, come read what this guy did.) Generally, I'd suggest you start over, new tile included. The amount of aggravation and time spent cleaning the tiles won't seem worth it if you have alot of tiles. Forget about the cut tiles, probably won't fit accurately again. That will mean you'll be short tiles so you'll have to buy more, but the batch shading is slight but noticeably different. Anyway, you may consider using a bigger notch trowel if you want to reuse the tiles. Trowel as typical then skim coat the backs of the tiles with thinset. The floor will be slightly higher, but you will probably get good results. Make sure to remove any high spots of old thinset from all the tiles.
*Scott- thanks for your input. The span in question is 12', joists are 2x10 spf#2 16" o.c. with 1x12 subfloor run diagonally. Underlayment is 4 ply 1/2" plywood laid perpendicular to the floor joists.I'm fairly certain the issue is that I didn't read all the labels .I now have to remove the tiles, attempt to clean them and relay the floor with the proper mortar.I have a fear that Mike is correct and I will have to chuck the ceramic and start anew. I hate learning things that cost me money...
*Rich-How tedious can cleaning three thousand tile be?Fortunately the floor consists of 12x12 and 6x6 tile of differing colors. The individual tiles have different shades and hues so I don't think any new pieces will catch the eye. The majority of the floor is tightly in place, but I don't see how I can repair the loose ones and have the grout match. (About 1/3 of the ceramic in the traffic area is coming loose.)Thanks for the tip with the trowel. I will see how it goes...
*This is great. You start out telling everyone ya didn't follow the directions, and ya have people trying to find every other problem than the obvious! Boy, we REALLY don't want to believe the directions, do we? I usually read them on a new product, started when working as a preteen just to annoy the old man. He'd say do it this way, I'd say o.k., just let me make sure....drove him nuts! Now it's a a fairly ingrained habit!Who knew, a case of childhood rebellion gone right! I do notice I read them more when he's around than when working solo! I'd scrape the tiles flat, back butter them and use the larger notches. They'll sit a little higher, but it'll be like using the handmade, more irregular tiles. Jeff
*Doug,Have you given any thought to screwing down a layer of 1/4 inch tile backerboard to the plywood? Will that raise the height of your floor too much?I've removed thinset from tile with a coarse belt in the belt sander.
*Jeff- maybe this goes in the wise sayings post-IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, READ THE DIRECTIONS.I'll use the bigger notched trowel and the belt sander suggested by Ralph.Ralph- I considered the backer board before. It causes a clearance problem with the new refrigerator.I have installed many floors over plywood underlayment with no problems. I use the backer board under natural stone and in areas subject to high moisture.Anywhoo, tonight looks like as good an evening as any to start removing and cleaning...Thanks everybody. I'll let you know how it turns out.
*GREAT NEWS! THE HOUSE BURNED DOWN AND THE KITCHEN FLOOR IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE! Thanks to the post Arson Is My Business...
*Psst ... try using troweled-on PL construction adhesive to glue down a few of the tile, see if it works -- I assume the thinset is well-bonded to the tile, and that the ply is thick enough. Please do NOT tell anyone here that I proposed such heresy! Our entire porch is slate tile glued to ply, no problems whatsoever.
*Just love those adhesives don't you? Maybe you could change your by-line to "Andrew D - just glue the damn thing".
*One word: Plastics! Hey, how about peel-and-stick pressure-sensitive adhesive joists & decking?I was hanging some drywall around a basment steel girder last night and REALLY didn't feel like furring around it, or losing any headroom. FINALLY I had the insight that I could just glue that end of the drywall to the bottom of the i-beam. Worked great, and it makes for a pretty solid patch of ceiling! I'm glad I won't be around when someone tries to remove it.Hey, as long as I'm drifting off-topic, I bought one of the new 6,000 RPM Makita drywall screwdrivers. Neat-o! It's like using a stapler to put in screws.
*Dear doug,As someone who has written many a set of instructions, only to have them misunderstood or ignored, i will repeat my gentle reply to those harmed by thier own negligence:>Read the manual!Which may be conveniently abbreviated thus:>RTFMBeen there, done that. You must have the heard the crack that the difference between a carpenter and a master is that the latter knows how to hide his mistakes. A clever but error-prone worker will also transform mistakes into "features" or "detailing" of the work -- I'm afraid loose tiles won't make it there...
*One last comment....I use Versabond all the time and it plainly states on the bag that plywood is a suitable underlayment. Is there more than one Versabond?? As far as I know, it is just another thinset mortar with an additive that allows you to just add water. It's important to use the flat side of the trowel and really lean on it to get a thin bonding coat when spreading thinset on plywood. It sounds like the floor itself should be strong enough.
*The bag I'm reading says "exterior grade plywood". I may just have had the great fortune to have gotten a defective batch. I don't know- been pullling up tile for an hour now and some places the mortar didn't bond to the plywood, some places didn't stick to the tile.
*Doug, have you thought about caulk? Just caulk all the grout lines with a color nmatched flexible caulk. If extra strength is needed, glue the grout lines first! Then fill over that with the properly colored caulk. Then take a lot of pictures and send in the mess to Better Homes and Gardens. Hell, you might end up with a cable home improvement show!blue
*Dear Blue Eyes,I have done as you proposed and it worked great! I can't believe the rests of these guys wasted their time with usefull input.I'm finished with the floor and am spending my time securing sponsors for the show. I will be certain to mention you in the credits...
*Hey, he probably makes more than we do. You can't argue with success.
*Did you put down any metal lath, or is the tile affixed directly to the plywood?
*Everyone who posted- thanks for your advice. Ralph the belt sander was the ticket for cleaning the tile. Also sanded the plywood underlayment. Reset the tile with Bonsal thinset two weeks ago and all is well... floor looks great. Wife is very pleased...