I am planning on installing recessed lighting in my living room. Can I make airtight boxes out of 1/2 drywall so I will not loose any heat through the attic? If so how large should they be.
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No, you want ventilation around the cans to let the heat from the light disipate. If you don't the sensor in the light will keep going off when they get too hot, and make your lights blink. The heat build up will also eventually melt the wiring.
I gave you the simple version of why you don't want to do this. Some one will come along shortly with a whole lot of technical talk if you want that as well.
I don't think you'll lose enough heat out of a can light hole to worry about. But if you are going to make your house that airtight you better not eat beans.
Is this a cathedral ceiling or is it flat ?
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
You want to get cans made for insulated attics. Otherwise you build the shroud from sheet metal to let the heat disapate but stop drafting.
Excellence is its own reward!
Depends on where you are, if the winter is not that cold then an IC unit by itself should be fine. In cold climates even with an IC unit which is just a leaky metal box with a thermal breaker, the cold down draft can be quite annoying. You can installed plastic shroud (polypropylene?) made by the light manufacturers to make it airtight. The shroud is designed for new construction, nailed to the bottom of the joists before drywalling, caulked to the vapour barrier to make it airtight. You can easily cut off the flanges and adapt it to a retrofit. The shroud is much bigger than the IC unit so heat build up is accounted for in the design. They are good for regular A lamps and halogens as well, just make sure you get the proper combination. And you can bury the whole thing in insultion.
Tom
Pretty sound advice from what I have seen so far. One small point. An IC rated can is the trick. They also make a sealed version that may be worth looking for, electrical supply houses, as they can obviate the need for any containment to prevent air infiltration or escape. Once installed they can be buried under insulation as desired once installed and checked.
Try to find ones made by a major American manufacturer. The cheap Chines versions are trouble. You save $10 a unit but can spend an extra half hour per unit getting them to work and look right. Even with the best installation the fit and finish can be lacking. If they fail or need replacement parts, new trims for instance, in the future your pretty much on your own with an off name.
Lightolier makes air-sealing cans. I would imagine that Halo, Juno and some other mainstream manufacturors do also.
Ed
About a year ago I put 20 HALO IC cans in my basement ceiling. They were quite easy to install. My only complaint was how the trim ring was installed. I used a baffle type of trim ring which attaches via 2 springs to the can. The springs went high up into the can and required long nose pliers and some patience. This approach seemed rather cheap. Also, the top of the trim ring has a large opening allowing you to see past the bulb and see the silver can.
Just last month I installed IC recessed cans sold by Progress Lighting. The sheetmetal was thicker that the Halos. Also, the trim ring attachment is much better; I can't think of a way to describe it, but not dinky springs. The trim ring is pulled in real tight to the finished cieling. I will use Progress cans in the future. One more thing, they were no more $$ than the Halo.
That spring connection is a pretty common feature in several brands and while it may seem cheap, it does work well. I've been putting in cans for 20 years that work like that.
Also, if you can see up into the can it's probably because you're not using the correct bulb for that trim. The open-ring trims (coilex baffles for example) are designed for use with reflective flood "R" lamps that have a wide diameter that fill the opening. People often put those trims in and then stick in conventional "A" lamps and they look bad.......besides which they don't do the job properly. You want the light reflected down, so either you use a reflector bulb that does that in conjuction with an appropriate trim, or you use a trim that's designed to reflect down with an A-lamp installed.
Progress Lighting is good stuff too :-)
Ed
Halo, unless they have drasticly lowered their standards, are good. Remember that even reputable brands commonly have a low end line to cater to those that don't know any better. These are better than most of the imported trash but not by much. I think they, Halo, make a sealed and IC rated can that should work well. You may have to call around to a few electrical supply houses to find them.
To get some idea of comparisons on quality go to your local big box home center and look closely at the discount cans. Most of these centers also carry a higher end line. Compare the two. Usually the low end will be thinner steel, less round and with poorer fit and finish. Sometimes you also can see weak rivets, poor junction box design, cheaper fixture wires and general murphoid design. A quick test is just to compare weights. Cheap fixtures are usually lighter and made with softer steel.
Big box stores sell Halo for air tight applications with model # H71CT for insulation applied directly above them. These have many holes that leak cold attic down into the heated space. For a few dollars more the Electric Suppliers sell #H71CAT that has all the holes covered and are air tight. If you have heated space above it probably makes no difference but for other applications it does.
Slightly (but not totally) off the subject ...
Aside from the arguments about service, problems with returns, support, etc., has anyone had good luck with any online discount/wholesale supplier of lighting to the building trades? The thought came up as I spec'd about 80 cans today for a spring project.
As to the original question of whether to do a gypboard box to house the can and render it airtight AND isolate it from insulation, I remember seeing just that concept sketched and described in a magazine about home building. It may have been JLC, or perhaps FH. Should be plenty fireproof. My local code requires that gypboard be used, with the appropriate tape on joints, to completely line and seal both the box in which my close clearance fireplace sits, and its flue chase. And the clearance is close, indeed.
great luck, service and pricing from Sunstar Lighting in Florida..
my electrician put me on to them...
i think this is the phone number..
Sunstar Lighting Ph: 800/881-STARMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if you use dens-pak cellulose in your cathedral ceilings.. then you don't need the air-tight cans.. just the IC...
and if you blow cellulose in your attics , again.. you don't need the airtight... just the IC...'course, i'm talking about a lot of cellulose.. like 18 to 24" in attics and solid in the cathedrals..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey Mike -
The problem I have w/Sunstar is that once you're on their list you can't ever get off. They badgered me relentlessly for a couple of years w/phone calls, faxes and catalogs until I told them to F*** off.
Yesterday I put in a bunch of Lightolier 5" "Lytening" cans, housing $10.50 each, and thought about this thread. They're great! Versatile (model 1004 can be IC, non-IC or air-sealing depending on the trim) , easy to use, inexpensive.
Ed
is that you ed ? texas ? nice to hear from you
yes , once a month i get a call from my new salesman at sunstar... but , that's ok...we give 'em about 3 - 4 orders a year... and it's easier for me to get something from sunstar than to go to home depot...the ups guy comes right to my office..
had two defective items.. replaced them immediately... isn' there a sunstar in texas , too ? or do you deal with the one in florida ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Progress has a lot of cheap fixtures oput there but their recessed cans really are pretty good, IMO
Excellence is its own reward!
Some HDs carry Progress lighting.
Sorry, I haven't used Halo, mostly Lightolier, which are not cheap.
Excellence is its own reward!
Since this thread has turned into one about can quality (what was that original question, anyway?), I will give you my electrical sub's two cents worth. Having hung Progress and Halo, and installed all their trims, he now swears by, and stocks, only Juno.
I want to install recessed lighting in my living room,which has a flat ceiling and the cold attic is above. Can I make airtight boxes out of drywall to seal and prevent air infiltration.
You can do that, and you probably need about 1" of clearance all around. The trouble is, you will need to back up the gypboard with something so as to be able to fasten edges and corners. Go ahead and design and build something, or instead, look into the types of airtight can enclosures such as Juno's Air-Loc series.
Here is my 2 cents worth.
One there are basically three types of cans
Non IC No contact with insulation
IC rated Rated for direct contact with insulation
Air-Tite Rated for direct contact with insulation and totally sealed
Non IC cans forget that they exist.
We use IC cans for almost all projects. We have a temperate climate and air infiltration is not a major concern for us most of the time. AIr-tite would be the product you are looking for. They will accomplish your goal for a lot less hassle, and a little more money. We use the air-tite cans for a more important reason than heat loss, MOLD. Moisture moving into catherdrial ceilings can cause much more problems than a few dollars on the heating bill.
Air tite cans can also be achieved by using a airtite trim if the style suits your needs(typically doesn't).
We typically use HALO cans and have been very happy with them, but for that matter I don't see much difference in any of the main line manufactures. I don't really care how thick the metal is or the quality of the steel, once installed it doesn't really matter. Commercial electric sells a can that will take all of HALO trims for a few bucks less and I have been pleased with there cans(not trim).
If you use a baffle style trim stay away for the white trim with a white baffle, will be yellow in a very short time. You are much better of with a black baffle.
Also was installing some JUNO remodel cans today, and anyone that has ever installed HALO remodels can attest the clips that hold them in a difficult at best to install(even impossible on anything thicker than 1/2") JUNO's clips a a joy to use easily pressed into place and hold extremely well(even on thick 1" ceiling). I will use JUNO remodels from here on out.
Good Luck
David
Thanks for the tip on the clips.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hi,
Not sure what type of baffles you are looking to install. but Halo also makes an airtight baffle you can install within the can itself. I haven't seen them in HD, but Expo has them. I'm sure HD can special order them, since they own Expo. Anyway, this would seem to be an easy way to handle the issue w/o going through the trouble of building those boxes.
For what it's worth!
Hobbs, Yes build those boxes, I'd probaly give them 3 inches clearance, all the way around, someone suggested making those boxes out of tin. I've got 4 brand new recessed cans in the kitchen, of a new home I've just finished, they are Home depot's, ic rated cans, and all day long ,each and everyone of them, blink off, 5 minute's later, blink on off on, aughhh, I've got a healthy 18 inches of blown fiberglass, sitting right on top of those cans. Yep, I suppose they are working like they are supposed to, and in the a.m. I'am installing lower wattage bulb's. Be safe out there, Jim J.