I’m building a shingle-style home in Massachusetts. My builder starting applying the kiln dried #1 Perfection Red Cedar R&R pre-dipped shingles with no keyway spacing, and stainless steel staples every 2 inches! Each box of perfection shingles states 1/8″ to 1/4″ keyway spacing is required, and two nails per shingle 3/4″ from the sides, with an extra nail in the center for shingles over 10″ wide. I contacted the shingle manufacturer and they said application without spacing and with too many fasteners voids the 30 year warranty. I also contacted the Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau and found that the shingles are dry as packaged, and will expand when they get wet. They have to be installed as recommended on the box. Just to be sure, I even wet a 6″ shingle for 24 hours and measured a 1/16″ increase in width, so they are right! So, I have begun to strip off all of the shingles (about 10 boxes were applied) in order to install them properly with a keyway spacing and proper number of fasteners. It’s a huge pain, but I have 3800 sq. ft. of sidewall, and I want this all done right. My builder has done many homes with no shingle spacing and thinks it’s OK, and says he hasn’t had any problems. I’ve also seen other red cedar shingled homes, some with keyway spacing and some without. I think the ones without spacing are incorrect. I say if you do something that voids the warranty, it is wrong and it’s your responsibility to fix it. I doesn’t matter how many times you or any other builder does something wrong, it’s still wrong. Any comments?
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Tell him to stop what he's doing right now! He's screwing it up. 1/4" gap, 2 nails 3/4" from the sides, one in the middle if over 10" wide is the only correct way to do it and this is common knowledge that he should know. Your shingles are going to pop and crack the way he's doing it.
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Edited 5/29/2008 4:51 pm by Ted W.
Your builder is in the wrong, but many people install shingles "his" way so I don't know how upset you should be with him.
The kiln dried perfections are a different animal from the regular cedar shingles. The non-kiln dried shingles usually have a fairly high moisture content, so they will tend to shrink a little as they dry, so you can get away with laying them tight. As you discovered with the KDs, they'll expand when wetted.
http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
pre-dipped with what ?
we usually apply R&R 'S TIGHT..... no keyway space
they come in a box...very dry...but no claim of KDmy only beef would be his nailing.... it sucksMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Reading the other's comments it appears I may have over reacted. But there's a reason for that. I've seen jobs where half the shingles were cracked, and was told that it's because they were nailed wrong. Personally, I wouldn't let anyone nail shingles like that no matter how commonly it's done. If for no other reason, it voids the warranty.
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Edited 5/29/2008 6:13 pm by Ted W.
On a wall for siding is different from on a roof. The cedars on a roof will absorb water, but siding lets raindrops slide off too fast and absorb only a tiny amt of the rain that hits them, so swelling is not worth considering most of the time.
But with KD, I might leave them just a hair loose - say card stock thickness - which is a bit less than that 1/16" you measured.
But his method of fastening will ruin a good shingle. There are reasons for the specified fastening schedule. Even more important than the spacing and how many holes he is placing in the shingles, is the depth to which he drives them. I dislike staples, but allow it when carefully done. The head of the nail or the crown of a staple cannot in any way penetrate the surface of the cedar. when it does, it has started the job of making kindling out of the expensive material. The crushing and splitting of the grain there will widen into a split that shortens the life.
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I think this is yet one more type of work where GC has to outline exactly how subs are to do their work, and keep an eye on out to make sure they abide. Not saying it's subs doing the shingles in this particuar case, but just in general. If let to their own accord, about half the subs out there might nail away like crazy to (supposedly) get done and paid faster. They'd probably do the same with vinyl siding, except their afraid the sun might hit it before they get paid.--------------------------------------------------------
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Thanks for all of your comments.
The shingles are Teal brand, and after being kiln dried, they are fully dipped by the manufacturer in Superdeck 1902 red cedar transparent stain and sealer, which is a mix of linseed oil, tung oil, and a chemical for UV protection. The Supedeck does not seal out moisture, but it does slow down the rate that moisture is taken up. The shingles arrive in the box in a dry condition, and will expand when they get wet.
As I removed the improperly installed shingles, I discovered that most of them were expanded slightly already, because after hammering out the staples, most shingles would remain in place and have to be hammered out from between the adjoining shingles, either that or they would pop out when two adjacent ones had staples removed. Shingles next to my window trim left a mark in the trim and pressed so hard that bits of the cedar stuck to the paint in places. Many shingles were already split at the staple, as many staples were overdriven, as well as having far too many in each shingle. I counted one shingle with 9 staples in it!
I am now certain that these shingles must have a keyway spacing in order to be properly installed. Anyone who believes that it is OK to install them without spacing is asking for problems in the future. It's true that walls will not hold as much moisture as a roof, but what about when we have a storm that lasts for days with wind blown rain? The wood is going to get wet. Here is a link to the cedar bureau wall manual which explains the way to do it right: http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/wall-manual.htm
you have a legitimet beef with the installer, be firm and assertive.
I don't condone staples, but thats me..if he is using Monel, or stainless..MAYBE I'd be Ok with it, but the spacing rules are still the same.both for the fastners and the expansion gaps.
Play hard, but don't piss off a guy with staple gun in hand.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
For what it's worth, the method of application you describe, aside from the ridiculous overnailing/stapling, isn't too unusual. I haven't used r+r's that I recall being labeled "kd", so I can't say whether the spacing issues will cause a problem. I can tell you ,however, that in my area, SE Mass., We've been puttin' em tight as a drum for as long as I've been siding houses. ( 25 years or so) I can say with a clear conscience that I've seen those houses after 20 years, and they still look good as new, without any buckling whatsoever. Having said that, they weren't kd per say, but they sure seemed dry as could be to me at the time :) I would also say that the whole "voids the warranty" issue is an understandable concern, but my experience with such is that I go with the methods and practices that I KNOW have worked for me in the past. Warranties tend to be pro-rated and not cover labor anyhow. Don't get me wrong, I think the nailing issue is worth discussing, but it's understandable as to him putting the shingles tight. I usually use a 7/16 crown ss about an inch in from the edge, and I'd tend to go with 0ne more in the middle on a 6-9 " shingle, two more spread out in the middle of a wider shingle.I can also say I haven't ever seen any splitting issues with this method whatsoever. As Paul said, depth of staple is the key.
The sidewall shingles, as P also said, will never be exposed to the type of soaking that putting them in water will. If you think about it, an increase of 1/16 doesn't amount to a hill of beans when you consider how much that pushes out on the middle of the shingle, and further, I'd bet my left cahone that you'd never see that kind of expansion on a finished sidewall.
my .02
Bing
Bing,
My builder also said that he had never seen buckling on any houses that he had done with tight shingles. I was back and forth with the decision to rip the shingles off for about a week. It was really troubling me and causing lots of stress. I looked at other houses, did research, and did my own test. However, regardless of my conclusion, if I ever did have a problem with the tight shingles and incorrect stapling, I would have no recourse. I spoke to Teal Cedar and the Cedar Bureau about it and they were 100% against the tight assembly and said that it voided my 30 year warranty. We're talking about $20,000 worth of shingles in materials alone here, and I did not want to take the risk. I sacrificed about $1800 in shingles I ripped off for the sake of doing it right. I believe there is a good reason the Cedar Shingle Bureau and Teal both recommend spacing the shingles. Otherwise, why print the instructions on every box?
I spoke to Tony Bonura from the Cedar Bureau, and he said that many contractors got used to spacing shingles tight because they were using white cedar, which is green wood and will shrink over time. The premium red cedar shingles are kiln dried, which is totally different. They are already shrunk.
All that being said, I can understand why you would not automatically have a problem with tight red KD shingles. When the shingles expand, they just go into a compressed state. The wood cells and fibers get squeezed. As long as the fasteners hold, the shingles will not buckle. Imaging a dry sponge in a clamp. Wet it and let it dry, take it out of the clamp and it's the same size. But wet it unrestrained on a table and it's going to expand.
The problem I had was that there is always a chance that a problem could occur with incorrect application, and I'm not a gambler. I like to do things right the first time.
Paul
As I said in a previous post, my first shingling job was in MA. Actually, I lived in Wareham. The job was about a 20 minute drive. I wish I could see the house now, but doubt I could find it.
I miss that part of the country.
we install them as they come out of the box
we don't plane them or refit them in any way ( they're R&R )
there is just enough variance so they are self spacing ... if we measured i'd say they wind up between 1/16th to 1/8 th gapped anyways
that is all the spacing we've ever needed
my first red cedar job was in about 1963 .. working with an old carp who block planed everything to perfection... and all was tight fitting ... a week later after heavy rains, the whole north side had buckeled and had to be redone
anyways... using R&R's we have them touch each other , but we don't force them
and that is all the spacing we've used for the last 30 years or so
i have to keep an eye n the newbies until they develop a feel for the fine line between too tight and too loose
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" '63"
yer old.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Mike,
If I had ended up with a 1/16" to 1/8" keyway, I'd be OK. My problem is the shingles are super tight, with absolutely no space between 95% of them. My builder used them right out of the box, as far as I can tell. They are R&Rs.
I'm glad to hear that buckling has been observed, so at least I didn't do all the work of stripping the shingles for nothing. A few guys I spoke to at work have also seen buckled shingles, so even though it's not too common, it's not a myth either.
Perhaps a lot of guys get away with a tight fit because there is a often small gap from the shingles right out of the box. The size of the gap depends on the squareness.
Paul
Curious Mike what do you put underneath them? I've read stuff here on the board saying the tanins in the cedar will leach out and make swiss cheese out of Tyvek house wrap. That said I don't think I've ever seen a house in New England (including our addition of Cedar over Tyvek) that wasn't done this way? I've also never seen firring strips used. Does this void the warranty as well? I know your in the area and seen some of your work on the board so was wondering what your take on this is?ThanksTom
we always use 15 or 30 lb felt under our shingleswe don't use cedar breater or furring strips or any kind of rain screen on sidewallon roofs, if the roof isn't skip-sheaqthed we use cedar breaterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Felt is the recommended product.
I was very concerned because I had Tyvek on the house, so I called Dow Chemical Co. and spoke to them about Tyvek under cedar shingles. It's OK. Nothing in Cedar will degrade Tyvek, according to Dow. Though it's not the recommended product, it also has an OK by the Cedar Bureau, and does not void the warranty. I've attached a FAQ from Dow I found on the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association website.
Paul
2paul.... tyvek is an inferior product
and it does fail under cedar i can show you example after example
i'll never use tyvek i'll use felt until they can demonstrate an equal product......
isn't it strange the DOW says it's ok ???????Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Ok, I have Tyvek on my house. All the windows have been flashed to it with Grace Vicor Plus. I'm almost finished removing the shingles that were put on too tight. If you were me would you remove the Tyvek and replace it with felt? This is my last chance to fix this, and I really want to do it right.
Putting felt over the Tyvek is still a possibility, but two vapor barriers on one wall -- wouldn't that be a problem? Do you have evidence of the failed Tyvek? What happens to it? I'd like to bring that up with the people at Dow if they lied to me.
Thanks,
Paul
I, too have seen tyvek fail under cedar shingles. After 5 years the stuff was confetti. Univ. of Mass. at Amherst wood studies lab did a study that said that tyvek will react with the tannins of cedar to cause it to fail. I can't find the study right now, but I'll keep looking. I have also worked on many older houses that have had cedar shingles over red rosin paper with no problem. I have worked on one house where the owner saw the condition of the rosin paper under 50 year old shingles and agreed that we should use it again. Price the stuff out at the lumber yard, it's cheaper than dirt.
Paul,I don't see a response from Mike Smith regarding your question - 'If you were me...' Not to put words into Mike's mouth but I think he'd tear off the tyvek and put up felt.You really need to tear it off anyway since there are a zillion holes in it from the shingles you're tearing off - those holes will leak.A correction for you - I'm presuming you meant DuPont and not Dow. Dow makes WeatherMate housewraps (blue) and DuPont makes Tyvek (white). Depending on the specific question you asked, chances are that no one at DuPont lied to you. Tyvek does not turn into swiss cheeze when exposed to cedar extractives. All plastic housewraps (operative word - All) will let bulk water pass through when they get any surfactant on them. Soap is the most common surfactant (wetting agent), the tannins in cedar (extractive) are a surfactant also. Even latex primers, paints and stains are surfactants and will reduce the water resistant nature of plastic housewraps.DuPont has a co-marketing arrangement with the WRCLA (western red cedar asso). Both organizations and the CSSB will state that direct application of shingles to housewraps is okay. But it's not - unless you live in a desert. Housewrap companies seem to agressively fight any claim that their products have a problem when certain sidings are applied in direct contact. But there are lots of documented cases. Several years ago there was an article in FHB that showed the problem - see http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/siding-with-rain-screen-walls.aspx?ac=fp
issue 137.Tar paper does not have the same problem with the extractives in cedar.Neither Tyvek nor tar paper are vapor barriers - both permit moisture vapor to permeate through. In stucco applications - a double layer is required.On another note - you and others noted installing an additional fastener in the middle of wide shingles - Check the CSSB instructions again. You need a pair of fasteners spaced about 1 in. apart in the middle of the shingle. But don't place the fasteners within 1 1/2 in. of any joint in shingles beneath nor position a joint in the overlying course within 1 1/2 in. of the extra fasteners.I've been doing trainings on cedar shingle installations for the WRCLA, Maibec and Shakertown for the past 4 years. There are lots of misconceptions about what's okay and what's not. Many issues with installation are contained in the IRC so if you haven't already checked a code book and don't have one, stop by your local building official's office and ask to read it.Mike
Mike,
Thanks for your input on the Tyvek. You're right, I was confusing Dow with Dupont. All my conversations with Dupont resulted in me believing that Tyvek is OK under cedar shingles. If it really isn't, wouldn't there be a class action lawsuit by this time? How could they continue to get away with it?
I went to the UMass Building Materials and Wood Technology website and read the article on Housewraps again.
http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html
I cut and pasted this paragraph from the article:
"We ran a series of hydro tests using soapy water and then another series using a cedar-extractive solution. We limited our tests to Tyvek, R-Wrap and Felt, since these were the winners of the first round of clean-water tests. Tyvek and R-Wrap lost about 10% of the soapy water column in 2 hours. Felt seemed unaffected by soap, still loosing 30% of its water. Tyvek and R-Wrap lost about 3% of the cedar-extractive mix in 2-hours, while Felt again lost 30%. It does appear that soaps and extractives do have at least some affect on the water resistance of housewraps."
So it seems that Tyvek lost 10% at most, whereas felt lost 30% in the test. So what is the problem with Tyvek?
I also just ran my own test with Tyvek while I wrote this. I made two identical Tyvek 4" x 6" x 2" deep trays. I put both trays on a paper towel and filled them with water about 1/4" deep. In one tray I mixed Dawn dishwashing detergent into the water. I now see (after about 10 minutes) that the paper towel is moist under the Dawn filled tray, and dry under the plain water tray. So surfactants do exactly what is predicted - reduce the surface tension and allow the water to seep through. But if felt paper loses 30% vs. only 10% for Tyvek, wouldn't Tyvek be OK?
I have not read the article in fine homebuilding yet, I need to get a subscrition first.
About the nailing in the center. I asked Tony Bonura of the Cedar Bureau about that, specifically because the CSSB Wall Manual says two nails in the center of 10" wide shingles and the box of Teal Cedar Shingles says one nail. He said one nail would be sufficient, especially because I am using stainless steel staples, in which each staple is like two nails anyway. I'll keep it 1 1/2" from the keyway below and above.
Paul
describe your SS staple , please... length & crown widthi hate staples in shingles...
you will too if you ever have to do repairs
what does a staple do for you that a good shingle nail can't ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
shoots out of my staple gun :)
Bing
Mike,
7/16" x 1 1/2" stainless steel staples, Spotnails brand. My builder selected them (easier than hand nailing for him), and I paid for them at over $200 a box of 10,000. I've pulled out thousands of them, and lost at least 1/3 of the shingles in the process. I was able to hammer most of them out from the back, but the ones that were in studs would not come out without destroying the shingle, especially because they were countersunk in the shingles. I'm considering buying nails.
Paul
no.... absolutely not
no 1 1/2" crown
1/2" crown maybe
but neither is as good as a shingle nail... we use HDG 3 1/2 d for WC
and 4d HDG box for RC
and SS for face nail
staples with a large crown are no good
staples for wood shingles are no goodMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
ok..... these pics are not as good as the ones i should have taken.....
but this is the third house this year with tyvek and cedar shingles
the best thing about these pics is that almost everything to do with siding , flashing , trim , and window/door installation was wrong.... and the three jobs certainly reinforced my predjudice against anything other than felt as an underlayment
all three jobs are houses built in the mid-'80's
View Image
here, mr. clever used 1 1/2" staples to fasten two shingles simultaneously resulting in many, many splits when they tried to shring apart.... also note the numerous holes in the tyvek whereever a fastener penetrated
View Image
no pan, no spline and badly designed windows... with no secondary protection from the tyvek
View Image
this is a corner near the boxed chimney..... leaking for years... also note the sidewall shingles sitting on the roofing... they are all rotten... i'll post a picture of what happens to siding when it sits on a roof
the pic above shows all the numerous holes in the tyvek... and this is tyvek is pretty good condition relative to some of the real swiss cheese we uncovered
View Image
again... no pan, no spline, bad window design , tyvek and a bad installer
never had a chance
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/1/2008 11:23 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/1/2008 11:25 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/1/2008 11:29 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 6/1/2008 11:31 am ET by MikeSmith
I didn't see any regularly maintained flexible caulk bead either. They shoulda caulked after painting! That would have saved everthing! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Most times with cedar shingle siding, caulk is only needed as a stop gap for poor of missing flashing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know that much about shingle siding. I do know that a properly caulked job will not allow water to get behind casings, corner boards and brick molds. It's not stop gap if it's properly maintained. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I do it, I caulk in behind the shingle against the casing BEFORE placing the shingle. I already have a strip of tarpaper behind that vertical joint. I use a slip of AL at the sill horn corner at bottom.The reason I started using caulk in that joint is that when I would tear off one that was 40-100 years old, the shingles would have shrunk back away from the casing and exposed the tarpaper to the sun for enough years that it was starting to deteriorate.Same at cornerboards, tho most of ours are woven outside corners.You don't want caulk OVER a cedar shingle because it will look gaumy. Fine with painted claps though ( except that the caulk is under the paint, not over it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
jim we will go to our graves disagreeing about the use of caulk as a cure-all
caulk is to give a paintable surface.... in siding and trim
caulk has no place on a RC shingle job
we use a lot of caulk on trim ... for example between the window jamb & the casing ... between the vinyl sill & the false sill
on corner boards at the lap... but the only reason for those is so the paint will have someplace to adhere to
for weatherproofing in commercial work , caulk is needed for aluminum trim and for glazing
in residential work caulk can never take the place of the right flashing details
those windows had a two-piece sill, the main sill was dead flat with no slope... and the pieces were all finger-jointed... those were bad windows and caulk would not save themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thats why I qualified my statement about know knowing about shingle installations. Since shingles don't get painted, the idea of securely attaching a quality bean on top of the latex skin just doesn't make sense.I'd probably have to do some research to see what binds to cedar, if there is anything. Without that bond, all caulk is useless. The idea of using caulk as a paint filler is nothing like my idea of a sealant that keeps out water. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
don,t get me wrong...... we'll use a couple cases of high quality caulk on a typical exterior trim job
if there's fibercement plank we'll use a half dozen cases of the recommended caulk just for the siding
but none of it is to keep water out... that all relies on flashing detailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with most of your points, with the exception of two;
I have stapled shingles for 25 years, and to a number, have had 0 - yes - 0 callbacks in regard to splitting, cupping, etc. Not sure what , in your opinion the difference is between a staple and a 5d galvy box nail except that it amounts to two nails sharing a head. As long as they're not overdriven. I will say that those photos are an example of some hellacious work, one staple bridging two shingles? Crikey.....
And not to beat a dead horse, but as I've said before, while I think tyvek is grubbage due to the fact that it obviously will break down when it gets wet, everyone keeps missing the point....IT SHOULDN"T BE GETTING WET!!!!! EVER! Bad flashing, no vycor, bad lap details, etc, are what turned the house in your photos to ####, not the fact that the tyvek couldn't stop the water, and disintegrated. A thin bead of phenoseal, wiped row by row with a wet rag, keeps water out of the siding/window trim junction. Period. After I caulk most windows and trim, it's a nearly invisible line of white, but THAT is what keeps the water out.
I may sound like I'm being argumentative, and honest, that's not my intention. It is difficult, however, when methods that I was taught, and know to be good practice , are treated like hackery when I've seen the ###ing houses 25 years later and they look perfect.
peace
Bing
"After I caulk most windows and trim, it's a nearly invisible line of white, but THAT is what keeps the water out."Thats my method too but I don't bother trying to make the bead invisible. Done right, it becomes it's own design detail. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
IT SHOULDN"T BE GETTING WET!!!!! EVER!
Are you shingling only side walls?
If you've ever seen the underside of a cedar roof on split sheathing after a good soaking rain, you'd understand the problem.
Cedar shingles get saturated. Water completely penetrates them and moistens whatever is behind them. That's why proper back wrapping and FLASHING details are so critical.
I've also witnessed Tyvek deterioration behind cedar and in the middle of a field, not necessarilly around penetrations.
And, I will murder the next MFer that I have to go behind and try to swipe out stapled cedar shingles.
Cheershttp://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
bing... you sound argumentativeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
no I'm not :)
i musta mistook you for grant ...
now that's argumentative..
want me to hold your coat ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
have had 0 - yes - 0 callbacks in regard to splitting, cupping, etc.
Oh yeah. I may be wrong, but if you've not had any callbacks:
1: your're not doing much work.
2: you're moving around a lot.
3: you don't answer the phone or change your number frequently and peak thru the curtains before you answer the door.
I'm skeptical because everything you say is contrary to what I know. But most of my experience is with roofs, not walls.
Could we see some pix of the 25 yr old perfect jobs? http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
You are wrong
1.) I've probably sided ( we used to do a lot more r+r in the '80's; when the price went up, it shifted to clap) or helped side somewhere around 50 houses with RC r+r's. I have (conservatively) been a head carp or helper or builder on something in the neighborhood of 300 houses framed.
2.) I live , and have lived, within 5 miles of the house I grew up in, for 35 years. same phone # on my sign for 15 years, same cell # for 10
3.) I have never, and I don't know how vehemently I can put this, never, ducked warranty work, or a call back. And I certainly am not saying that I haven't had any, cause over the course of learning, and time, ### happens. But I've been back to repair flashing on a chimney when it leaked for the first time 15 years after I built the house it was on, and didn't charge for it, so as far as hiding behind the curtain, go #### yourself.
4.) and finally, ALL my experience is on sidewalls, none on roofs. If a customer called tommorrow to ask me to do a wood shingle roof, I'd be posting here to Paul or Mike or anyone else whose work I'd seen and whose opinion actually meant something.
5.) I'm liking this numbering thing with the spaces; makes me feel like Jeff
6.) I'm terrible with both my computer and my digital camera, but since there are a couple small projects I've been working on that I wanted to post pix of, I may make the jump to post some pictures of old siding jobs so you can see some evidence of what I'm talking about.
cheers to you, too
I'm done arguing. maybe
Bing
I'm done arguing. maybe
No you're not.
40 yrs old minus 25 years experience adds up to 15.
If I apply the same math to all the figures you just conveniently spewed out, you've done 3 jobs tops.
Oh, yeah. I'm glad you picked up on the Buck impersonation. I was entertaining myself with that in mind.
You've had your experience and I'm glad you've never had a callback. You got lucky. And Tyvek deteriorates behind cedar. You just don't know that. If you've never had to change anything in a cedar shingle clad wall or roof, staples are good . If you have, you'd be offering to hold 'em while I hit 'em.
Now, the question is: are you lying about your age or your experience?
Either way.......http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I guess sometimes you have to sigh and realize that you're arguing with a wall.
yes 40 minus 15 is 25. Nice job.
I hope you use a calculator when you bid.
I see that you're 52, so based on your algorithm, you have shingled 5.6 roofs.
I defer to your wisdom.I agree that tyvek breaks down under cedar, I already said that. I don't think the damage done is comparable when it stays dry.....
I'm not saying I've never had a callback, just not in regards to splitting shingles.
If it's one of my jobs you have to pull the shingles off of, and that makes me the guy you're gonna have to kill, well, take your best shot. I'm easy to find.
ny-nite
Bing
I guess sometimes you have to sigh and realize that you're arguing with a wall.
I'd already done that.
I see that you're 52, so based on your algorithm, you have shingled 5.6 roofs.
Yeah, but they were big ones.
I'm not making my point very well. What I was getting at, is I claim about 25 years experience at what I do. I actualy started my first business 27 years ago, sold it, ran the roofing division of a restoration company for 12-13 years, and then started another business. So for 27 years, I've been responsible for the outcome of the projects I've worked on. But, like you I did some work by the hour when I was 15, but I could hardly be asked to stand behind it.
I agree that tyvek breaks down under cedar, I already said that. I don't think the damage done is comparable when it stays dry.....
But, what you've failed to realize is when exposed to rain, cedar shingles saturate and there will be moisture against the Tyvek. I'm speaking of unfinished shingles. A finish will naturally reduce/eliminate saturating. All your installations may have been painted. Around here, sidewall shinlgles are often not finished.
just not in regards to splitting shingles.
Either I miss read or you miss stated, but I took "zero" callbacks as zero callbacks. And I knew that was BS. Nobody's perfect.
On the jobs where I've had to come behind others, there are lots more splits if the shingles are stapled. I can usually tell whether the job is stapled or nailed when I walk up to it. You may have better technique, but from what I've seen, stapling is not the best way to attach cedar shingles. Go on defending it all you want. It's still a second rate practice.
If it's one of my jobs you have to pull the shingles off of,
Have you ever had to remove a section of stapled shingles to add a penetration of some sort? Apparently not on a regular basis. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
"I'm speaking of unfinished shingles. A finish will naturally reduce/eliminate saturating."Time for me to add to the knowledge base here. what you say is good in theory and seems right, but I have two experiences with old sidewall shingles that may disprove that. Both are old homes with painted cedars. Both times, when I tore them off, they were saturated with water behind the paint.These were painted on the surface only after installation and had been painted with older oil based paint and both were over tarpaper and had good flashing detailing.My theory is that the oil paint, being waterproof, trapped water in the wood behind once it got driven in on the wind. The movement and multiple joints in the shingles meant the surface was not perfect, so wind drove rain into the assembly, but then the oil paint on one side and tarpaper behind trapped the water there in the wood.Those are the only two times I saw any siding so wet.
One of them was out in CO and the other was that Cannonball house that you visited here that was two hundred years old. That cedar siding was at least forty years old when we took it off and was probably the third siding on the place.
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A finish will naturally reduce/eliminate saturating."
Change that "will" to "may".http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
One more thing:
I just checked your profile.
It says you're 40.
You been contracting cedar shingle jobs since you were 15?
Or did you lie about your age?
Which one is it?
Not trying to be arguementative.
http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Go back and re- read
I never said I was contracting when I started. Pretty sure I said " when I first started in the business" or some such. But yes I started swinging a hammer part time, summer and weekends when I was 15, and went full time when I was 17. Is that ok?
As I said, never said anything to the contrary.
kisses
Bing
I have stapled shingles for 25 years, and to a number, have had 0 - yes - 0 callbacks in regard to splitting, cupping, etc.
There's your quote.
Your implication is that you were responsible.
Hell, most of the guys that work for me have never had a callback in 25 years. But I have for work they did.
The fact remains that your spewwing out "facts" that have no basis. You're making up stuff. I'm telling you what I've seen when I've come behind someone like you. Hack away. Guys like you keep me in business.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
A dozen posts back, I picked up on the same thing Grant did, but passed by - here is why-I think you do more or most new work and don't be getting the chance to go back and learn from old work. As for recalls on work you tended to 25 years ago when you were a beginner, the owners have no idea who you are and would be calling the contractor you worked for back then - IF they called anyone. Most of those homes don't even have the same owner if they fit the norm of a 7-8 year owner, and nobody goes looking for the origianl contractor to do warrantee work on something over ten years old anyways.That is when problems begin to show up on stapled work. a CEDAR SIDING WILL LAST A GOOD FORTY YEARS WHEN DONE RIGHT, but will start showing more excessive splitting at staples and missing shingles after twenty years in a stapled job.In the case of the OP, with half a dozen staples per shingle, it would have been 2-5 years before he had problems tho.25 years ago, the pneumatic guns did have the kind of fine control for depth of drive they do now, so you could not have possibly done the stapling properly without bruising a good third of them way back then. But to be generous, I doubt that you ever did get a call back on those from then. They just don't know who to call or ignorantly figure that it is time for new vinyl anyways. So your statement that you haven't had callbacks is true on the face. There is just a lot more behind it all.as for thinking that no water should ever get to the Tyvek or tarpaper ever, you simply show that you do not understand wall systems and the facts about siding.
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Wow.
lotta issues to address here.
I would like to start out by stating that I really didn't mean to start a whizzin contest here, especially with me as the target. I would, however, like to clarify a few points, short of beating a dead horse.
When I stated that I hadn't had any-0- callbacks in 25 years, you're absolutely correct in that for a period of that time, it wouldn't have been me that they called. I've been self employed for 15 years, before that I worked for the same guy for 10. He was, and still is, like a father to me, and taught me most of what I know. I hold him in the highest regard of about anyone I know. We still meet up at 6 in the am a lot of days, and when I mentioned this debate to him, and he said he had never had any complaints on the houses we'd done. He's done additions on several of them, and DID say the staples are a bitch to pull, which I don't think I ever disputed. I would think they would be a royal pain to strip or patch in. So....While I have been honest as to the length of time that I've been siding with RC's, I did lump his"no callbacks on split rc's" with my " no callbacks on split rc's" My apologies. It was not my intention to deceive, I really thought it was basically the same.....I also never intended to imply that I've never had a callback...of course I have, and I said that, but maybe it was overlooked. I make no claim to never having made a mistake, I'm as fallible as anyone else.
As to Piffin's post, well, you make some good points. I have been lucky enough to do mostly new work during both my employed time, and my self employed time. I've done quite a few additions tho' over the years so I've certainly seen the results of water, etc. I've also seen plenty of walls opened up on additions where they were done with red rosin,( which is all we used back then ) that had no water stains and looked dry as a bone. I think that while the tyvek is supposed to keep water out in case it gets in, the goal should be for that not to happen at all. I don't use tyvek for all the same reasons you guys don't, for cripes sake!I think that to say I'm " just showing that I don't understand wall and siding systems " is pretty unfair considering that you don't really know much about me or what I know. I also would debate who lives in what houses and who knows who built 'em. My old bosses houses 20+ years old, get advertised as ###-built when they go on the market.He has customers that he's built three houses for over a 40 year period.( his career, not mine :) Everybody knows the guy, and believe me, most people in my area that own a house built in the last 30 years know who the builder was, even if it's changed hands two or three times.
To Seeyou, also, I promise, I'm not the guy you go around fixing stuff behind. I'll grant ya, I AM the guy you're swearing at about the shingle staples, but I'm not the other guy.I have never done a single ad, sent out flyers, or marketed myself in 15 years, and I have always, and continue to have, work months in front of me ,that's all, without exception, by referral. I'm not trying to brag, just trying to get my point across that I'm someone who actually does care about how his work stands up to time. I'm sure you're sitting there rolling your eyes, thinking this is bs, but it's not. So...........
I will try to post some pics when I become technologically advanced enough to take the lense cap off my camera.
I just realized I forgot to insert enough blank lines to be Buck-like.
It's not too late, though.
No, it's not
and I'm not arguing
Bing
sounds like paul2 may be right next door to youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I had din-din at Magoni's in Somerset the other night; drove right thru Swansea to get there.
I'd be willing to space his shingles AND use nails if I weren't so durn busy. And if I take any more work for this fall instead of working on my own house, my wife will look like Grant chasing a stapler wielding siding contractor.......never a good thing
Bing
I have been lucky enough to do mostly new work during both my employed time, and my self employed time.
Pif made a good call on that one. My cedar work is about 99.9% restoration work. It's just not used here very often in new construction. So you haven't experienced the frustration of coming behind you.
I've also seen plenty of walls opened up on additions where they were done with red rosin,( which is all we used back then ) that had no water stains and looked dry as a bone.
I've seen that as well. And on the other side of the house the rosin paper was still damp.
you don't really know much about me or what I know.
Maybe. But I think you're showing what you know and have decided you don't want to know more. I've been at this a long time and there's quite a few things I don't do the same way I started out. And there's quite a few things I won't be doing the same way next year 'cause I learned something new.
I have never done a single ad, sent out flyers, or marketed myself in 15 years, and I have always, and continue to have, work months in front of me ,that's all, without exception, by referral.
I don't see what that has to do with anything, except congratulations in this economy.
I was about 15 years in before I ever worked on a new house. I grew up and learned most of what I know doing restoration. It's really frustrating when one is trying to give a classic home a boost back to it's former glory and someone has done something that is hard to undo for no good reason other than it's a little quicker or cheaper than the prefered method. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I was trying to explain your position more than attack you personally, which is why I mention that you seem more experienced and learned at new work."o say I'm " just showing that I don't understand wall and siding systems " is pretty unfair considering that you don't really know much about me or what I know."It is a simple fact that NO siding system keeps all the water out. Wjhen yu start form the position that when the back up is exposed to water something is wrong with the siding install, then it shows that you don't fully understand siding.
the very reason that backup system is there is that siding does fail to keep all the water out. Study up on rainscreen wall systems and see what I mean. Or go to the Builkding science site and see the test results.You are good.But you can be better.
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WOW!
I agree with you 100%, that is a very telling scenario right there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Mike, I think his staples are 7/16" wide, 1.5" long.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
nick....doh........
<<<countersunk in the shingles>>>>
i still hate 'em
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 6/1/2008 2:09 pm ET by MikeSmith
Agreed. I won't use them because there's a darn good chance when repairs are needed, I'll be the guy on the ladder with a shingle thief, cursing at the idiot who used staples.
I gun in 1 3/4" ss ringshanks, blind or face nailed. They're not that much fun to remove either, but they're better than staples.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
"good chance when repairs are needed, I'll be the guy on the ladder with a shingle thief, cursing at the idiot who used staples."Thing is - that there is a much greater chance that they will be needing repairs when installed with staples because most of them damage and start t he wood splitting on grain
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Using that many staples so improperly driven makes me think he would not be the kind of guy I'd want to go hunting with.He's be taking sound shots, spraying the trees with a semi-automatic and dropping more vegetation to the ground than dead game. I'd be lucky he didn't accidentally shoot me
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LOL, and I thought hunting season was a few months off.
Whenever I'm shingling large areas, I fantasize about a fully automatic nail gun. Set up the shingles, step back, squeeze the trigger and ratta-tat-tat, all nailed off. Shingles would a mess, for sure, but talk about a MANLY way to get a job done.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
LOL, Our fantasies change with age, don't they?
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Mike,
7/16" wide x 1 1/2" long stainless steel staples, to clarify. In contrast to the SS nails that were used under the windows, the staples were nearly impossible to remove unless I was able to hammer them out from the back. Now that all the shingles are removed, I have the opportunity to use nails instead of staples. Besides the few hundred dollars I've blown on staples already, I need to discuss this with my builder to see what upcharge he would want for hand nailing.
One thing I noticed, however, was that the shingles that were nailed (under the windows) split easier at the nail than the ones that were stapled. I figured this is because the nails are wider than the staples, and act more like wedges in the shingles. I should also mention that the nails were sharp pointed, and I think it would be different for blunt points. Also, the nailed shingles were cut short (5"), so therefore were easier to split overall - making this hypothesis more difficult to prove. But logically speaking, what specifically about staples would make shingles more likely to split? I think it probably has more to do with the pneumatic impact of staples that shocks the wood and starts it splitting, vs. hand nailed which is more gentle, if done right.
I just spoke to David Beattie of Dupont this morning. He says that Tyvek is fine behind red cedar, and that the two times he had to answer complaints, the issues were related to the installation and not the Tyvek. I can't afford to keep tearing out new work. For better or worse, I'm leaving the Tyvek on. Besides, if water is getting to the Tyvek, which is a secondary barrier, I would have problems with the red cedar that need to be fixed first. I've got Grace Vicor Plus around all the new Andersen Windows, so that should help prevent the problem, seen in your photos. I've also designed my home with 18" roof overhangs around the entire house, which keeps more rain off the walls.
I did see the photos of the deterioriated Tyvek, but I've also seen deterioriated Tar Paper in similar circumstances where materials went through wetting and drying cycles. And I do agree that proper flashing is key to a successful job. I believe one of the most important things is giving water a place to go through the proper use of flashing, as well as not trapping it if it does get in.
I've made the following conclusions from my own research and reading comments on this discussion so far:
Red Cedar Shingle Best Practices (At least no one seem to think these are bad):
Questionable or Inconclusive Practices (Might be a problem, might not):
Thanks,
Paul
all of our sidewall shingles & roofing red cedar shingles are installed with siding guns
we have Bostich N63, N64 & N66
we seldom hand nail
and we use SS only for face nailing.. all the rest are HDG.. not electro -galvMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, and/or anyone in my area that wants or needs work:
Would you be interested in shingling my house? 38 squares of red cedar. I'm in Swansea Mass. My builder John Preston lost two men recently and is trying to hire two men now, so it's just him alone at this point and things are going slowly. Call me on my cell if you are interested: 508-212-8022 and we can set something up. There's plenty of other work to do as well.
Thanks,
Paul Formisano
paul, thanks for the offer..... unfortunately we're pretty well booked until the fallMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This thread has convinced me that I'm never going to install or contract for cedar shingles LOL! Or, I'll charge enough to tear them off and reinstall the housewrap and new shingles yearly for 100 years...or until I'm dead...whichever comes last. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
This thread has convinced me that I'm never going to install or contract for cedar shingles
All ya gotta do is use that felt stuff and those nail things. Mikey says it's been working for 400 years. Good enough for me. Except they probably had to make their own felt and nails and their own nail hitter in thing, too.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't care. No cedar shingles! None. Nada! Zero! I now officially hate cedar shingles. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I need to discuss this with my builder to see what upcharge he would want for hand nailing. "First, make sure he knows HOW to hand nail.
If you have thoroughly studied the instructions at the cedar institute, you have seen their drawing showing the head of the nail left proud so it is just contacting the surface of the cedar. Driving tight so that it is dimpling into the wood and damaging the grain will do the same damage pre-splitting the shingle and shortening the life of it. I assume since he showed such great disregard for this basic principle of shingling with his multiple staples overdriven, that he may have no clue as to how important that is.Use the ones you salvaged for under windows and frieze where the damaged can be cut away.
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Resign yourself to the fact that if a warranty issue ever comes up with Tyvek behind your shingles, Dupont will find some way of blaming installation. To do otherwise is to admit that Tyvek is inappropiate behind cedar, and they will probably not do that until all the cedar trees have been cut down.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Ya Know....I earned the title "piffin screws" here for hating the use of sheet rock screws for hanging cabinets.I'm thinking of starting to call Tyvek "Smitty-Wrap" LOL
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Wow, you tested it. If you are that into the real differences between Tyvek and tar paper - call Paul Fisette at UMass Amhurst. He's been doing the testing for 15 years. As him what he'd use and why. Last I spoke with him, it was Tar Paper and he had several reasons.I don't buy Tony's answer. Ask why the provision is in the CSSB guidelines and why it is in the IRC? Is Tony a PR guy or a technical guy? The two legs of the staple arguement doesn't stand up in my mind either. I've seen several walls where the single staple or nail practice has led to splits at the fastener. Not saying that it won't happen with double fasteners but at least you have some research backing up the practice.MG
mike..... we're talking about shingles 10" and wider , right ?
here's my reasoning: the shingle has to expand & contract
since it's restrained at the edges it will split ( assuming that 10" is enough to force a split )
the purpose of the single nail in the middle is to define where the split will occur
it will split whereever that nail is
if you treat that nail location as a future vertical joint and offset it from the course below ... and offset the course above then that split will not cause a future problem
NOW..... if you have a 10" shingle and you edge nail and then you put in TWO nails near the center you have NOT defined where the split will occur ... it might split at the left center nail, it might split at the right center nail or it might split between the two nails... so your offset range is much greater and harder to predict
I have also seen a notch made in the top tip right above the center nail to help insure where a plit will occur... I don't believe the two center nails are an improvement over the single center nail.
there has also been a lot of discussion on gapping ( on SIDEWALL shingles, not roofing )...... i've seen RC's fitted as if they were doing joinery... and i'm not advocating that.... but i'm not going to gap them either..... before we started using R&R's we used to have to fit shingles, either with a hand axe ( my favorite ) or a block plane.... this is when shingles were often fitted too tightly
since switching to R&R's I've found enough variance so the shingles can be installed right out of the box touching each other....... not force fitted ... just touching each other.... the variance in the material automatically gaps the shingles
I still see carps trying to block plane R&R's, and of course, it's not only a waste of time but it also installs the shingles too tightly so they do buckle. But working with them out of the box and not force fitting them has always provided sufficient expansions room while still maintaining the sharp formal lines people expect to see on a good Red Cedar sidewall.
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You're right, you can't predict where a split will occur - even when following the directions and building code. I used to rail against codes and instructions. Since haven taken part is a number of law suits on one side or the other, I've come to recognize that those codes and instructions provide a bench level of protection. As soon as someone either ignores the code/instructions or doesn't even consult them and installs materials to their own devises (even if their experience has shown them their method performs well) they're done for. The loose every time. That said - yes, I do install things in a fashion that doesn't comply with code/instructions - and I know the risks.I've never seen the notch trick but it does seem like it would work on RC (flat grain WC wouldn't be so reliable I suspect.I can't say that I see a lot of 'bad' shingle jobs as I drive around but I get a lot of calls from shingle mills who want me to review problem projects. After we tear off a section of shingles the problems often become evident. In order of occurance - problems are due to 1 Nailing high (like 2 to 3 inches too high), 2 Placing shingles too close / no joints - swelling leads to buckling, 3 too many nails (they guys just blast in dozens into each shingle and the poor thing falls apart. The no joint failures are mostly white cedar shingles or low grade red cedars. Good tight grained RC doesn't seem to have the buckling problem even if laid tight.MG
that is probably my saving grace...... all i've ever installed is #1 perfections ( and now R&R besides )
or in WC, only Extras, never clears.... i have a much lower appreciation for WC than I did back in the 70's when the Cape Cod look was all the rage... now i like to refer to them as nailing "potatoe chips " on a house
I do like the factory finished Maibecs that are being sold now though..... they look like a long term quality siding
on roofs . all we do now are "thick butts"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm laughing - nailing potato chips... I know what you mean - that's just they way they look the day after you open the bundles.Have you ever used 'jumbo's on a roof? They have 1 in to 1 1/4 in butts and run 28 to 30 in long. I'd never seen them before I met with some builders in WA and BC. The look is amazing - but costly.MG
Mike,
For shingles wider than 10", the instructions on the Teal Cedar box say one fastener in the center, the CSSB instructions say two. I'm going to go with the instructions on the box to preserve the warranty.
I'm also using my knowledge of materials engineering to predict that a crack will propogate from a defect. With one fastener I predict one opportunity to split at that location. With two fasterners I would predict two opportunities - which one will crack first is not predictable. I'd want to force the crack away from a joint below, so I'm leaning toward the single fastener from that logical reasoning as well.
I think staples provide twice as many splitting opportunities a nails, but the skinnier cross section of the staples results in less initial splitting force than a single wider nail does. The actual crack propogation mechanics of shingles would be nice to know - that would be a good science project for a high school kid. I think it is a combination of initial defects and expansion/contraction moist/dry hot/cold fatigue cycling.
I'm also going to split any shingles over 12" wide in half. They are bound to split anyway so I'm beating them to it.
Paul
Out of curiosity, what are the chances that the problems reported by people here with Tyvek under Cedar are due, not to tanins as people surmise, but due to people leaving the Tyvek exposed to UV for way too long.All the time, I see Tyvek exposed for months on end during house construction. People seem to treat it as temporary protective cover until the siding goes on, or "what I don't see (eventual disintegration due to UV damage) doesn't hurt me."
I don't think the chances are very good. I have done a number of additions/remodels where the tyvek has disintegrated and not just under cedar but vinyl siding too. Mainly the houses in the era of 1985-1992. Two of them i know the builders and they were not exposed long for any amount of time.From what i have seen the newer stuff seems to work well but for how long this time?
I don't think there's much of an issue with UV degradation unless it's left exposed for over 6 mths. Back in the 80's it was an issue but that hasn't been an issue in product failure investigations in the past decade as far as I've heard. The tannins are the issue as well as 'vapor drive.' Without a space behind the shingles, any moisture that is in or gets into the shingles can be driven right out the backside of the shingles and through the housewrap when the sun shines on a wall and the moisture starts migrating away from the heat (sun) and to the cold (housewrap) side. An air space lets the vapor escape before passing through the housewrap 'the wrong way.'mg
Where did you get the shingles? I've been planning to buy shingles for my house and dip them myself, mainly so they will keep their color. I had never thought of getting pre-dipped shingles.
BTW, my first job in the trades in 1967 was to nail shingles up on the exterior of a house in Massachussetts. It was a summer job. I think I was told to leave a small space. I did not know what the Heyy I was doing, but the love of working on a wooden structure remained.
The same contractor also put up crackerbox/matchbox-sized homes, which forever left me with a disrespect for hacks. At 17, I already knew that I never wanted to build junk. I didn't know how to do many things, but I knew junk when I saw it.
I did take woodshop three years earlier in Alaska. Perhaps that is where I learned to appreciate quality.
I bought them at Fairhaven Lumber in Fairhaven Mass 508-993-2611, ask for Dave. They had the best price - I bought 94 boxes. They are Teal brand red cedar #1 perfection shingles pre-dipped "Teal Tone", which is identical to Superdeck 1902 clear stain. It is less expensive to buy them dipped than to do it yourself, because Teal gets the Superdeck stain in bulk, whereas it's $40 a gallon in smaller quantities.
Paul
Thanks Paul!
Investigate the proper application method, sure go right ahead, but to investigate and then take it upon yourself to strip the shingles off is not a smart move. Discuss the application process with your builder first and go from there, that's the proper procedure and let him/her handle it. Since you have zero background and virtually no experience, stripping them off yourself means "you bought them and they're yours now, to do with as you please, including reinstall and repair of existing siding!" Even if they were installed incorrectly the first time around, when you personally take them off it's now your responsibility to show why the builder doesn't have a good case for collecting damages against you.
Woodway,
I discussed this with my builder when it happened. I volunteered to remove the shingles because I know it is a lot of hard work and I wanted to help him out, so at least all he would need to do is the re-applying the shingles. Plus, I wanted to save as many shingles as possible. I'm buying all the materials, so I own them. I could have been a real hard case and made him do all the work, but I felt it was also partly my oversight in not confirming that he would be applying the shingles according to the instructions on the outside of every box, before he started. I made an assumption that as an experienced builder he would obviously gap the shingles and use two nails or staples per shingle, but I was wrong.
By the way, I have a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering and I'm a Professionl Mechanical Engineer in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, so its not as if I have zero background, as you have surmised. I have beed designing assembly, calibration and test equipment for 20 years and I have to deal with all sorts of materials that expand and contract with temperature and well as humidity levels, while holding position toleraces to a few thousanths of an inch. So I know a little bit about the problems you can encounter if you don't give materials a place to expand.
As far as my experience with red cedar shingles is concerned, I shingled my home in 1996, and I did it according to the instruction on the box. I've had no problems.
Paul
Be careful, when you lean upon your degree background to justify unrelated experience to the field or expertise in question!
I have installed many squares of red cedar shingles, I butt them tight.
The worst issue I have encountered is one shingle buckling at the base
of a wall. I also build in Ma.
that is one of the more confusing posts I have read here in a long time.got an explanation for that?
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Here are some images of my shingle style house design. I designed it myself in Chief Architect.
Paul
Curious, if you're reshingling are you super insulating at the same time. We're considering reshingling as well but I'm also playing with the idea of doing a total job like the ones in FHB a few months back. Full taped exterior panels, sprayed in, under the roof.Windows are all new and we have new blown in insulation in the walls so I'm not sure if it would be worth the money (House was built in 1935). That said we have no intention of going anywhere any time soon.Tom
Ribs,
No, not superinsulationg. I am spraying insulation under the roof (due mostly to the design constraints) and I have 2x6 walls which I'm planning to fill with conventional high density R21 fiberglass. I'd like to use foam everywhere, but it's expensive and the payback period could be extensive.
If I put anything on the outside walls, I'd have to extend my window trim again. I've already found that 3/4" nominal was not thick enough to cover the shingles and I'm doubling it up already.
Paul
paul...
cool.....
do you have a curb view also in pdf ?
how are you treating the 2d floor of the tower ... interior drains ? scuppers ?
rubber roof with floating deck ? Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Attached is a more realistic view in jpg, but some of the interior walls on the 2nd floor have shingles on them so I need to fix that.
I was planning to put a 0.060" EPDM (or better) rubber membrane in the tower as well as the covered porch behind the archway on the main level. In the tower, there would be a roof drain at the center, piped through the interior wall cavity to the basement perimeter drain system. A wooden deck (Ipe perhaps) would be fabricated in wedges like slices of a pizza that would sit on top of the EPDM. In the porch I was going to slope the membrane to one corner and run the drain to the basement perimeter system as well. Decks would be level on top, but have sloped composite sleepers to compensate for the EPDM slope. The decks will not be fastened to the EPDM, but be removable for inspection and maintenance of the EPDM.
I didn't want to drain water over the shingles because of staining.
I've never done this before, so if you have a better idea, let me know.
Thanks,
Paul
that's the way i would do it
on your rendering
the garage door lintels look like they should be deeper.. if the window lintels are correct then the larger span of the garage door would call for a larger lintel.......
visually ......Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks.
I agree. All the granite lintels I have actually go all the way up to the top of the wall and tuck under the shingles (they are about 15 1/2" tall, the rendering is incorrect.) The two to be installed over the garage door were split from one monster size piece from an old train bridge in Boston, though I don't know where.
Paul
I was planning to put a 0.060" EPDM (or better) rubber membrane in the tower as well as the covered porch behind the archway on the main level. In the tower, there would be a roof drain at the center, piped through the interior wall cavity to the basement perimeter drain system.
If I were you, I'd ditch the center roof drain idea and run a scupper thru the tower wall. It could be done on the backside and made to flow out onto the lower roof behind the tower. I'm assuming you're not using any gutters. If there are gutters, the scupper could drain into a leader box.
You've got the water on the outside of the house already. Why bring it in?
I'm sure your detail has worked many times, but I've never been called to fix a leak on the ones that work flawlessly, so I guess I've never seen one. Every one I have seen leaks.
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Edited 6/4/2008 4:45 pm ET by seeyou
I know a scupper can't be beat - but stains are likely. My exterior roof is higher than my tower balcony floor, so I can't send water out to it. I could send it out in the back under the overhang. There will be one gutter on the house, over the deck. I could tap into that. The problem with that is I need to have a drain all around the perimeter to channel the water around to one side, vs. just one at the center. Perhaps the ones you fixed were using floor drains (improper but common) instead of roof drains? I also have the advantage that I am going to leave the center of the tower floor as a separate piece, so I can lift that small section of floor deck and inspect the drain periodically. The whole balcony is covered in a roof with a 14" overhang, so I don't expect a lot of water will get in anyway.
Thanks,
Paul
>>my builder has done many homes with no shingle spacing and thinks it's OK, and says he hasn't had any problems.
Right ....
Does he change his phone # after every job?
How long has he been in business? How many shingle jobs?
Get the address of some his his early jobs and plan a field trip with him.
>>I doesn't matter how many times you or any other builder does something wrong, it's still wrong. Any comments?
There might be a few times when the builder is right and the manufacturer wrong, I suppose, but this isn't one of them.
I'd suggest a good home inspection to look for other issues - maybe this is his only mis-understanding, but it's worth some $$ to find out before you accept the job.
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He said he had done his parents home with no shingle spacing, and they are right on the water. He said there have been no problems. I have not gone to see it. There are a lot of things I should have done, hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Even if I went to see it, it might have been fine. I think of it like this: you can smoke all your life and not have lung cancer yet, but that doesn't mean that you're not going to have a problem someday.
A lot of buildes will continue to butt red cedar tight in spite of the recommendations of the manufacturer on the box, and the Cedar Bureau. I honestly don't care what they do, as long as it's not on my house.
It doesn't matter now anyway, I removed all of the shingles. I'm starting over and doing it according to the directions on the box. I'm looking for help, but I'll do it myself if I have to.
Paul