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Still designing the fence. I’m going to prime and paint — any reason to use redwood (sapwood) instead of doug fir? No wood touches the ground.
Appreciate your feedback.
Michael
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Keeping in mind that I've never been a good painter, I've had my worst luck painting Redwood and Cedar. Besides, Redwood seems to be prone to splitting and cracking. If I was going to build a wooden fence that was going to be primed and painted, I'd use pressure treated if I could.
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I've thought about pressure treated but don't like the texture. Want the fence to be smooth-faced.
Thanks for the comment.
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For the application as you described, oak may be cheaper and will last a very long time. But maybe doug fir is less expensive where you live.
If you prime and paint, I don't think there is a need for a preservative treatment.
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Thanks for the suggestions. It's hard to get good information -- at the lumber yards, they're more interested in sales (redwood makes them more money), and at Home Box, they don't know anything. Even on the web, such a simple question isn't covered in the more than dozen lumber/wood sites I've visited. Take care.
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b TVMDC
There is no point in using redwood unless you use the heartwood since , as the attached photo shows, termites will eat redwood sapwood (Notice how they avoided the heartwood !). They will also eat primed and painted wood. If you want protection, the wood must be treated with something: either treated lumber, or check out < Obsolete Link > this thread for a discussion on borate treatment.
*b TVMDCOops, wrong picture, try this one.
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Thanks for confirming my suspicions about the redwood sapwood. I'm still researching and designing. All of the suggestions are wonderful.
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Anybody who reccomends Douglas Fir for a fence is giving you a bum stear. It will not hold paint. It will check and crack. It will twist and move. It will rot as water gets into those checks and cracks and turn a nasty looking black as fungus grows in/on it.
You are absolutely, positively better off with a species that has natural decay resistance like Western Red Cedar, or Redwood. The problems most folks have with painting these woods are painting over wet, or green lumber, then the paint peels or bubbles off.
Use Cedar, Redwood, Cypress, or White Oak outdoors, and save the Douglas Fir for what it's best for, dry structural members.
*Actually I can't imagine using either for a fence post that penetrates the ground. But you say none of the wood will touch the ground. For rails I have used, and seen used, lots of fir. Properly protected it seems to last just fine. Depending on what you use it may have to be repainted every 10 years or so. Or, if oiled or rawhided it may go longer depending on your climate. The keys are your climate, whether the fence is going to be continually wet, and how workmanlike your installation is.Yeah redwood might last longer but the cost is a bunch more and may not increase value proportionately in your estimation. If limited to either redwood or fir in my choice I would pick fir unless I were in a VERY wet climate.
*For painted out side projects i prefer fir.Here on the east coast it is a common choice. Jim I haven't had any problems with painting fir and I assume we are both talking about the same species. Skip
*Jim, what do you think of straight grain douglas fir? That's what is usually used for both porch floors and ceilings around here, as has been the tradition for the last hundred years or so. Usually painted, but lately(last 20 yrs) stained and finished. Think we're talking about the same thing? Don't know, and you deal with more rain than I do! Thanks, Jeff....BTW, I perfer a semi-solid stain for exposed wood, doesn't seal as well as paint...but no scraping when you re-apply every other year! Jeff
*VG Fir (have to bow my head when I say that) is a whole 'nother story. Love that stuff. Most of my house is trimmed with it and I have a nice stash waiting for the next few projects I intend to do.I will say though, that I would never use it in an exterior application where it is exposed to water and sun, like a fence. Maybe it's just that we have a unique climate here in Western Washington, but I even used board and batten fir siding on my house when I first built it and had many problems with it. It's just common knowledge around here that it won't hold paint or stand up to climatic changes anywhere near as well as Western Red Cedar. Decks, fascia, fences, railings - cedar, treated, or now folks are using the engineered lumbers and stuff like trex. For the floor and ceiling of a covered portch, I think it would probably hold up great, and if you have 100 years of tradition to back that up, I certainly can't argue against that. I'm just speakin' from my own experience with trying to use it for siding and trim.
*Michael, I see know rerason you could not use douglas fir for fencing. I just finished a picket fence here that we oiled to let it age naturally. But we are a dry climate. If you have you mind set on colour try a heavy body exterior stain. Colour is just as rich, since it is penetrating you have less paint type problems such as peeling and blistering and reapplying is much less hassle.The problems associated with wood can often be eliminated through careful selection of the wood used and installing the wood properly. Fencing should use only top quality wood and fasteners as it is exposed to the most extreme of elements. good luck. walk good david
*Michael:I have been known in the past to jump into discussions like this and express some minor nuances of environmentalism relative to wood consumption patterns. Of course, my opinions are never biased or in any way controversial. But then again as a wood technologist (MS Penn St) that is very aware of aspects such as wood durability and forest practices, maybe I have a certain unique perspective.Of all the uses of domestic woods,(excluding preservative treated material for fence posts for agricultural purposes), wood fencing is the #2 worst and most wasteful use of wood that I can imagine. The first is using solid wood to create fiber based siding product like L-P's great siding debacle.My first concern relates to the sustainability of the product -- that is "will it last longer in service than it takes to regenerate equal or like material?". My observation is that a wood fence at best will last 20 years for species like redwood. Less dense material like Western Red cedar, I think is lucky to last 15+ years, and use of non-decay resistant woods like Doug-fir, I think would be lucky to last more than 10 years. And to keep them looking good, a fence needs continual painting or application of coatings that contain environmentally toxic substances (eg mildicides to control the growth of the blackening organisms on the DF alluded to earlier).I tend to get really rankled when I see these really huge "privacy" fences. A 40' long privacy fence will likely contain twice the volume of wood as a solid T&G flooring for a 12' x 12' room and will last at best about a fourth of the time. Off the top of my head I would guess that the conversion rate of logs to finished fence is about 35% (maybe 40% at best). So you want to kill a tree (or more likely many trees) as part of clear-cutting practices (as apply to the species you indicated) to create a product that will generate an incredible amount of waste and fall-down in manufacturing and that will not even last as long as it takes to regenerate that same wood material. By my definition, that is non-sustainable use and part of the reason why forests are being ravaged.And when the fence finally looks so bad due to weathered, warped, split or cracked boards, or goes out of style, the damn thing gets torn down and sent to a land-fill. I suppose it is great for the economy but wood use like this is terrible for the environment.So what's the solution -- well how 'bout applying that good Christian principle of "loving your neighbor" or planting some sort of living, green hedge row/natural barrier.The 4 R's of conservation minded resource utilization are REFUSE, REDUCE, REUSE and RECYCLE. If you care about a diverse and heathly envirnoment, and as it applies to wood fencing -- this is one use of wood that I would refuse to participate in.Stanley Niemiec -- a Wood Technologist that happens to live in Oregon and is tried of seeing clearcuts.
*Here, old cedar picket fences are worth their weight in gold.I kid you not, old fence pickets that have been removed (in order to install a new fence) are being sold at about $2.00 a foot. Not 2 bucks for each foot of fence, but 2 bucks for each foot of BOARD. A 6 foot raggedy, worn out, gray and weathered picket goes for $12.00.They are very, very popular here for craft projects, old style cabinetry, and just about any other use you can think of. Here lately, homeowners have gotten into the dealing. There are ads all the time from homeowners willing to sell the boards if you come take down the fence, and remove all of it from their property. near the ditch without a fence...James "Loving Life" DuHamel
*Stanley, Seems someone with your qualifications would be well suited to answer the question. I'm not one who wants to rape and pillage the earth. If all the wood dissappeared tomorrow I'd be stuck with a mortgage and no way to pay it. Come to think of it, it wouldn't do much for your career either. So any way what is your opinion based on what you know scientifically. I appreciate those of you whose knowledge is from a different source than mine and I use the wood science boys at VPI for questions that require an answer I can't answer. thanks for a reply. Skip student, U.of Hrd Knocks
*Skip - what the heck does it take to graduate from that school anyway? I've been attending ever since I can remember and don't know if I'll EVER graduate.
*Stanley, you're right on there. Thanks for saying it, and if you have something to say in the future, don't hold back, even if you think you might stir something up.
*From another Northwesterner, Jim's right, guys. Don't ever use Doug Fir for a fence. In fact, read Stanley's post further on down before you even set your heart on building one.
*I would recommend premium red cedar fencing material. Install ,let dry, apply an oil base primer, then apply a latex over that. Should last a long time. Use incised pressure treated for your fence posts.The part I hate is diggin all them dang holes just to fill them back up again with a post and concrete. Have fun!!
*Stanley:Thanks for broadening the discussion. I have a tendency to limit my responses to exactly what the poster asks. Most of the time that is appropriate. But in this case, as you point out, it isn't.The best answer is to not use either material. If I had to choose from ONLY these two materials I would pick DFir. But, it would be better to use a totally different fence material, IF MCH Must have a fence.How about contributing to neighborliness, opening up the area and not putting in a fence at all? In what is going to be my retirement home I struggled with just what to use as a fence and how to design it to meet my perceptions. Ultimately I decided not to install a fence. Instead we have put in flowers, etc. It is amazing how much we have gotten to know our neighbors as they walk by or stop to admire the flowers.So, contrary to custom, Michael, unless you have absolutely no option I vote for rethinking the whole thing and not putting in a fence at all.
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This has been a very valuable discussion for me. Thank you all for your input.
Since I live in Los Angeles, in the heart of the city, and I have two young children who will be playing in the back yard... I don't really have any choice but to put in a solid fence.
Thanks to the feedback I've gotten here, I'm going to be able to put in a fence that will last a long time. It will cost me more -- but only in the short run.
Thanks all.
Michael
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Michael:
Now that I know where you live and that you MUST have a fence that cements my DFir recommendation. It would be a total waste to use redwood in such a dry climate. Perhaps you might want to use cedar for the esthetics if you have the budget. But bet you that DFir will last much much longer than you will own the house.
*I just gotta say....Lets be responsible for how long the fence lasts, period. I don't care if it will last longer than you'll own the house. I care about making a fence last as long as possible, so the poor tree won't have died in vain!I'd say Western Red Cedar is the appropriate choice...or a cement block wall with shrubbery planted at the base. Lotsa ways to build a fence/wall. Stuccoed straw bales will work. Heck, on the back cover of FHB a while back, there was a piece about a guy in New Mexico that made adobe looking walls out of old 5 gallon buckets! Lesse...Issue #111, September 1997By the way FredB, I don't mean to flame you. You just presented an opportunity for me to say something.
*Thomas:Speak away! All we are doing is putting data into his decision-making data base. How he chooses to spend his money is definitely his business.
*Well Jim as I see it the "great dirt nap" will mark commencement excercises for us poor mortal folk,and that throws us in to the "great perhaps" beyond which we may find we have entered the School of even Harder Knocks.Good reason not to sit out the dance. Skip
*Skip, et. al -- My following comments are somewhat serious and somewhat tongue in cheek.I'm not really sure what question you are asking. My general feeling is that to use wood wisely, you need to use it in a manner that will mean the wood will last in service longer than it takes to regenerate equal or like material (and that includes all the waste associated with processing). When trees are harvested the volume of the log is about 1/2 the volume of the tree; converting the log to lumber will generate wastes of anywhere between 30 to 50% of the log (slabs, end trim, saw- kerfs).Some furniture plants figure that 50% recovery from boards to finished product is the norm. I have not checked these figures recently so there may be some improvement but there is still a lot of waste. And yes some of this material can be used for particle boards, fuel or pulp material for paper and corrogated containers.I JUST LOVE THE COMMENT ABOUT HAVING THE FENCE LAST AS LONG AS YOU OWN THE HOME. Like I said in my original post -- that is a good economic decision but not a good environmental decision -- I wonder if people in the past were proud of the fact that they contributed to the extinction of the passenger pigeon. Greedy, shoddy carpenters and consumers who continue use PNW species in wasteful manners are contributing to the extinction of Columbia and coastal river salmon, spotted owls and maybe another 100 species. I guess they cannot see the forest for the trees.I would recommend that Michael contact the recycling centers associated with the garbage services for metropolitan LA to see if they are not making some plastic composite "lumber" from recycled milk jugs and papers. On the somewhat humorous side of things, I hear razor wire is very popular in certain areas of LA. But then again if conditions are so dangerous for children, my question would have to be why would you want to raise kids in such an unhealthy environment anyway. And for those in other parts of the country, maybe this will provide you with some perspective of why many Oregonians feel that there should be a permanent open season on Californians and why Californication is really a nasty word. There is also talk that Southern California want to establish a pipe line and take water from the Columbia -- over my dead body.And just so that you know, I had some 5-6 years in the furniture trades before I went back for my master's degree. During those years of furniture restoration, I sanded enough mahogany so that my snot was red, cleaned up from a day of staining with benzene and schlepped enough pianos so that my back still gives me problems. I got my degree so that I could do something about improving wood use and consumption patterns. Right now, in my cynicism, I don't see that there is much hope for the environment -- people just want more and more, and are unwilling to use the resource wisely and are unwilling to make sacrifices so that we, as a society, can have diverse healthy sustainable forests.
*Stanley:On the contrary, on proper analysis it is both a good economic and a good environmental decision.Too often we use high quality, relatively scarce resources to make a project have a physical life longer than its' useful life. Many times I have seen fences, walls, tile, etc ripped out and discarded, not because they were worn out; but because the home's use had changed or styles had radically changed.It is a fact, for better or worse, that people in North America will remodel to suit their own tastes and budgets. That what they are removing is still functional is a minor part of the decision process. So, when doing a project don't waste resources trying to second guess future owners or future styles. Construct for your use out of adequate materials and using quality labor.In this case, a fence, he should use the least valuable, least resource intensive material possible. Then when that material is used up and recycled into compost or fill, do it again. Most likely by then the house will belong to someone else and they can satisfy their need to decorate their own nest according to then prevailing standards; and they can do so with a minimum impact on our planet.
*Fred, Here's what I notice: The stuff that homeowners tear out and remodel is generally lower quality. Homeowners are much more likely to preserve and take care of a fine job than a compromised one. When I say "fine job", I mean everything, from design to materials to craftsmanship. A fine job is built to last as long as possible, and to be as functional as possible, to the best of the designer/builder's ability. That's a pretty rare thing here in the States. I doesn't take an expert to see it and respect it, and therefore take care of it. Build well, and it will last, with the help of all the future owners. This is the type of thinking prevelant in Scandanavia, for example. Everything over there is done with such care, its touching.How do you get clients to understand? That's another subject.Oh, and yeah, I suppose how Michael spends his money is his own business, but his (and our) choices DO affect the rest of the world. That's just a cold hard fact of ecology, and there's no getting around it.
*I love sitting by a fire....Man's natural use...of a tree...near the stream, aj
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bamboo. woven reeds. hemp.
between nice rails of redwood etc...
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(I thought the first two lines of a limerick were supposed to rhyme)
*Hey Stanley, YOU SEEN MY DOG????Just a bit of humorAvid
*Hey Stanley, My question is in a universe with unlimited redwood and fir how would these two stack up as fencing? Beyond that I wish there were some depository or recycling system that allowed reusing the material we tear out. In any given year I'm sure that I tear out several small houses worth of perfectly good material from cdx plywood and studs to finish grade material and hardwood such as oak, cherry and mahogany. If I had a way to store it I would but a lot of this stuff ends up in the landfill. A very poor utilization of these resources. Many of my customers are the type who remodel for for what I would call fashion as opposed to utility and have no qualms with the environmental impact of their designing tastes. I'm hip to clearcutting, slash and burn and agricultural pressure on the environment. My own house is pretty modest and unless I get a big burst of energy and win the lottery it will have a minimal effect on the environment from here forward. Skip
*don't you know anything..that's one of those Haiku thingees...
*Does much of the "quality" material that gets ripped out get diverted to HfH ?
*Fred:I would appreciate you expanding on the issue of how poor use of diminishing materials done in none sustainable manner is good for the environment especially when one considers the environmental consequences of clearcutting are considered and as apply to DF and Redwood (both harvested by clearcutting) and the threatened extinction of numerous plant and animal species. You lost me with that supposition.Refuse (as in the verb to express a committment not to do something rather than the noun trash), reduce, reuse, recycle.
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Still designing the fence. I'm going to prime and paint -- any reason to use redwood (sapwood) instead of doug fir? No wood touches the ground.
Appreciate your feedback.
Michael