Refinishing Large Mahgany front door
Thomsum
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
My nephew has a large Mahogany front door with a 10″ molding frame with small windows. The door has, over time, faded. He has tried to sanding down the door and then restaining with a jell type stain. The door now has whitish blotches and the top and bottom rails are quite a bit lighter giving the appearance of a different type of wood.
My question is how the best process to go about refinishing this nice door to get back an even Mahogany finish?
He thought about painting, but I told him that he has $3,000 door and he would be crazy to paint it.
Thanks for any help on this,
Thom
Replies
Mahogany lightens as it ages.
If you are able to sand it, that aged surface will be gone. You could then re-stain it, and be good to go.
Support our Troops. Bring them home. Now. And pray that at least some of the buildings in the green zone have flat roofs, with a stairway.
3k door
spend a few bucks
hire a pro to refinish it
Strip it down to bare wood.
Start over. (film finishes are harder to re-apply (i.e. you have ti strip them down to get a good result), penetrating finishes need to be replenished each year).
Strip it down to the wood; then check the color. Apply whatever stain you prefer that evens the color out. Use the sort of stripper that is real nasty; the methyl chloride (?) type.
After you get it stripped, use a good exterior epoxy as the first coat (at least). IIRC, Fine Woodworking had an article in the last year or two on this, so check their web site. This stuff is also used a lot in boat building.
The epoxy doesn't give the yellowing effect of varnish, so adjust the stain to give exactly the effect you want. After the epoxy, you can apply whatever clear finish you like. I would probably go with a water-based finish.
George Patterson
The epoxy idea is a good one because it slows moisture transfer enough that wood movement doesn't stress the top coat so much , but epoxy has almost no UV resistence. (On boats it's always covered with an opaque gel coat.) Consequently, the top coat must provide whatever UV resistence is needed or the epoxy will deteriorate. If the door gets a lot of sun (and the description of fading suggests this might be the case) then the most durable clear finish will be good marine spar varnish. That mean one of three brands: Epifanes Clear High Gloss, Pettit Captain's and Interlux Schooner. You have to get these at a real boating supply place and they will cost $25 to over $30 per quart.
It also means regular maintenance. In full sun, particularly in the South, this means an annual scuff sand and application of a refresher coat. In the North, or with some shade, you may be able to stretch the refresher for another year.
In the house I am building now, the main entry will be given a high-end enamel finish. I get enough varnishing on my boat.
I'm pretty sure there are epoxy finishes with UV resistance in them now. We had our front door refinished with a non-epoxy but not spar varnish finish, because we have a pretty deep front porch, even though the front is south facing. The finish has a 5 year guarentee even in full sun.The stain may still break down at the cellular level under the UV - not sure about that.
Yes, you can add UV resistence to epoxy--the typical way is to add fine aluminum powder, not so good for a clear finish. And, even so, manufacturers still recommend top coating with a UV protective finish. I haven't seen anything that suggests a revolution in this. I suppose 2-part linear polyurthane with UV additives is the best protection, but this isn't very practical and is more than double the cost of good marine spar varnishes. Single part polyurethane finishes are not at all good for UV resistence. They may say they have UV additives, but that's mostly to offset the natural deficiencies that the consumer grade poly/alkyd resins have.
As far as a clear finish for wood with a 5 year warranty in full sun--make sure you send in the warranty card, keep all the receipts, follow the manufacturer's manufacturers instructions to the letter, and keep track of the company's address. Does this sound like I think you WILL have to file a claim? My guess would be the warranty reserve is charged against the marketing budget, not manufacturing.
Edited 6/1/2007 1:44 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Edited 6/1/2007 4:39 pm ET by SteveSchoene
>>> I would probably go with a water-based finish.
Do you mind sharing name/brand that you may know of? I coouldn't find any for external application. thanks.
I don't have a favorite. Punching +exterior +"water base" +clear into Google will get you a bunch of hits.George Patterson
Mahogany doesn't need stain. Here's a mahogany door I built: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeu2jvc/. No stain, just three coats of semigloss polyurethane. It's about three years old.
Thanks for the info, but the mahagany door here seems to be lighter on the rails and splochy in some areas and therefore just staining would leave the color differences. He has sanded down to the wood down, but the lighter areas will not stain. I need to know how bring the light areas up to the same color as the normal wood color.
Thom
You may have to bleach the wood to bring it all to one color, then stain it down even. I would put a stain control sealer on first before staining. Usually this is done for pine and other woods that stain unevenly, but in this case I would take no chances. Make sure you follow the wood bleach instructions, or if you're using Clorox or oxolic acid, neutralize the wood after bleaching with a wash of white vinegar and then water. You might also want to try a dye istead of the thicker pigmented oil stains that are on store shelves everywhere. Behlen has a stain that I find really good for this type of application. It's called Solar Lux. It's fade and UV resisant. You can get their products from Woodworkers Supply or go to Woodworker.com. A lot of work goes into refinishing something.
Thanks for your recommendations for refinishing the door. I will have to look further into the bleaching operation. You are right, refinishing is a lot of hard work. Painting this door, although the easy solution, seems to me to be a sin, though.
Thom
I just refinished a front door for a client. Neglected and was beginning to deteriorate. Time to complete in short order was a big requirement, so for the topcoat I went with 3 coats of Minwax Clear Shield applied in 24 hours. Looks better than in pic, will see how it holds up over the next couple years.
View Image
Thanks for your help.
Did you have to strip off the old finish and restain?
Did you just sand and the finish?
Did you have any light colored areas and, if so, how did you get the wood to be a consistant color.
Thom
I skipped a few details on the door I pictured, didn't mean to mislead. so here they are.
1) This was not a mahogany door. Solid wood, with ~ 1/8" oak veneer. Oak was peeling/curling/cracking in spots, which I repaired/glued as much as possible.
2) Finish was gone in the lower sections, but some was left elsewhere. Door was stained and was getting lighter in shade where finish had disappeared. Entrance porch had 4~5 ft deep roof.
3) Door had been refinished carelessly, scratches were visible on the glass next to muntins. I used blue masking tape on the glass next to the wood to protect from further sanding scratches, and to make appying finish must faster (no cut-in). When painting/finishing doors/windows, I like to flood the glass/wood boundary with finish, acts as a seal, best done with masking tape to remove excess.
4) I removed peeling/loose varnish, sanded the rest but didn't completely remove. color variation was not a big problem in this case. The lighter sections I knew would darken with the new finish, they did (wet look ), blending with the rest. Not perfect, but this was NOT a $3K door, and the fee I charged was well capped. Customer was very pleased nevertheless.
In your case, much of the advice you've already been given is great. My 2 cents:
* I would avoid real bleach (clorox), destroys the natural color of the wood. Wood bleach (oxalic acid) is more appropriate.
* As somone mentioned, color difference is probably due to different amounts of finish/sealer still remaining on door. gotta remove all of it. I have found that starting with chemical stripper to remove the bulk, followed with sanding, followed with wood bleach, followed with more fine sanding ...works for me. yes, lots of work.
* Depending on what it then looks like, you may or may not need the stain. Top it all with at least 3 coats of finish.
Thanks once again. This is most helpful.
I read an article the other day and passed it on to my nephew. It recommended using an oil base #5 paint for the finish. It dries clear and is a much better protector for weather. Vince's door has little or no cover...a colonial design.
Here is what I found. Maybe you might find it interesting and useful.
Thom
I found this article about finishing doors. Some very interesting observations that I've never seen anywhere else:<!----><!----><!---->
(check out the final paragraphs and I would recommend you try the oil based #5 base mentioned…you can try the dip stick test first if you want. <!----><!---->
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In a recent post my friend, Steve, made reference to my tests of doggie sprinkling on exterior finishes. I figure after almost a year of testing it is time to post some interesting discoveries.<!----><!---->
As a preface, allow me to set the stage. Almost daily there is a posting about clear, exterior finishes for doors, chairs, signs and such. Responses run the gamut from diehard marine finishes to apply a coat of primer and then paint. Each of these has a bit of a problem. Marine finishes are not always the easiest to find and it grieves me to think of a lovely oak, teak, mahogany, fir, redwood or similar nice wood door painted in mauve goop.<!----><!---->
Bob from Fl inspired me with his continuing and accurate statements about the failings of a clear coat and the advantages of a good quality exterior paint. I decided after lots of reflection that he really was right but there was always the picture of mauve in my mind. Sooooooooo, how could one take advantage of his advice and yet capitalize on the beauty of a nice wood.<!----><!---->
I began to reflect on the characteristics of paint. Now, comes the boredom.<!----><!---->
There were several things I knew about paint. Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a varnish does not. The best quality paints will contain a UV protectorant and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages. Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color. There are generally 4 base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that 4 comes before 5. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeedingly deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.<!----><!---->
Now comes the testing. I bought 4 oak exterior doors. Each door was given one coat of the same MinWax Stain. On 3 of the doors, I applied 2 coats of "base" to the 6 sides of each door (3 coats on the top and bottom edges). Each of these three doors had a different type of exterior neutral, 4 or 5 base. The fourth door was finished with a consumer "spar" varnish from my local friendly paint/hardware store. The bases for the 3 painted doors were an exterior semi-gloss acrylic, an exterior semi-gloss oilbased polyurethane floor paint and a semi-gloss oilbased trim and siding paint.<!----><!---->
The doors were set up, slightly inclined, in mostly direct sunlight under a pecan tree in the backyard. My wife just loved that one. Daily, the sprinklers managed to hit the doors. The birds in the pecan tree used the doors for target practice. And, yes, the dogs did anoint the doors on a regular basis. My blonde Cocker, Zazu, was particularly enamored with the doors. Over the course of the test the doors experienced lots of Texas sunlight, rain and snow. The temperature went from below freezing to over 100. The advantage to the inclined position of the doors was the snow, ice, water from the sprinklers and the rain tended to collect in the raised panel areas. I feel these doors were subjected to far more severe environmental conditions than would be expected from normal use.<!----><!---->
The results were interesting. The "spar" varnish looked fabulous but after about 2 weeks it began to develop small cracks. In rapid order the door began to turn black, started to mold and the smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon. The waterbased acrylic is milky in the can like a waterbased poly. It dried to a more or less water clear surface but was a bit cloudy. It tended to wash out the stain a bit. Over time it became cloudier and ultimately become almost white. But, it remained solid and protected the wood. The oil based bases are also a bit opaque in the can but dried to a clear finish that is almost identical to a spar varnish - they added an amber tone to the doors. Both the poly floor paint and the trim and siding paint remained "clear" over the entire test period.<!----><!---->
The testing came to an end with a bit of encouragement. My wife said something clever like, "Get those damned doors out of the backyard?". She does not understand science. The floor poly had some minor checking and a thinned coat of the same base over the surface made that disappear. The door with the oilbased trim and siding paint was perfect other than it had lost a bit of the gloss.<!----><!---->
So, I am with Bob - paint the door. My preference is the oilbased products. If you are predisposed to a waterbased use an acrylic rather than latex.<!----><!---->
One thing you will find when you go out shopping for your product is a lack of knowledge on the part of the salesperson. Not many of these folk are aware that their neutral or 4 base will dry clear. If you want to have some fun, spring it on them. They will suggest you are full of Donkey Dust. Ask them to shake a can and put some on a stir stick. Dry it and voila, it is clear.<!----><!---->
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And here was one more testimonial to the procedure....<!----><!---->
My recollection is that Jim made this post back in July 2002 (at least that is when I saved it on my computer). Prior to the complete explaination he would post bits of the same information. About a year and a month or two before this post (spring of '01) I was talking with Jim while driving to Virginia to assist my brother-in-law with some maintenance on their log home. One of the tasks on the schedule was to refinish their south facing, no overhang front door...again! It was at that time that Jim informed me of his "test". A couple of days later the door was stripped, sanded, and "painted" with Olympic brand exterior oil-based paint base #5. By my count that's coming up on five years. <!----><!---->
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Just before making this post I called my brother-in-law to see how the door is doing. The report is that the door looks as good as it did after we refinished it back in '01—it shows no <!----><!---->
signs of cracking, yellowing, or any of the other common traits of Helmsman Spar Urethane in a similar high sun exposure; the builder recommended finish of choice before Jim's advice.<!----><!---->
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I have used a couple of other brands and find that all perform pretty much the same so long as you get the paint base used to mix the darkest colors. Testing, however, is always appropriate. I can also sympathize with lack of help you have <!----><!---->
received from your local S&W dealer. As soon as you explain to the typical paint store employee what you intend to do the reaction is generally the same—"Oh, that won't work..." On one of my let's-have-some-fun-with-this-guy visits to a local Benjamin Moore dealer last summer I explained the concept to the salesman behind the counter. He assured me with great certainty that I was completely wrong (I getting accostum to <!----><!---->
hearing that) and that what I proposed wouldn't work. I asked him to open a can of the appropriate base and just stick a wooden stir stick into the paint. When he withdrew the stick <!----><!---->
he showed me with great pride how cloudy and milky it was. I told him to set it aside and I would return later. When I did his response changed; "OK, its clear; but, it still won't work—if you <!----><!---->
don't add the pigment the paint won't stick right" (his words).<!----><!---->
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So, off to Lowe's with you, get the #5 base and have some fun...
Thom
What you describe suggests that there is still some sealer from the earlier finish still in the mahogany. That would account for why they take stain differently. Mahogany isn't a wood that naturally "blotches" very much. I'd say more sanding may be required.
I would recomend this stuff:
http://www.nam.sikkens.com/product.cfm?product_id=45&product_category=exterior
Pricy but the best stuff out there that I have found.
Cetol once attracted a lot of attention around the boat yards, in it marine version, which included some pigment to add to the protection. It has faded in esteem because it has tended to darken over time and although it might begin to fail in some places, it was a real b***h to get off in others when it was time to refinish. (Note, boats and boat things are always feminine by very long standing usage--centuries old tradition, in English speaking countries at least.)