i posted this in consruction techniques a few days ago and got no replies- am anxious for any opinions and advice before i proceed, so i’m trying again here:
do i need to add reinforcement to a recently exposed old exterior brick wall?
i ripped out an old coal-burning fireplace which was damaged anyway and had a plaster/mortar and lathe wall over it, cracked and crumbling all the way up to the ceiling. chimney has already been capped off and roofed over years ago.
am going to frame out a closet in the new empty space. behind the plane of the wall, the fireplace space was filled solid with 6 or 7 solid brick walls, floor to ceiling, but not attached to the exterior wall, which is just mortared brick. no studs or other support.
my question is: before i start work on the closet, do i need to reinforce the inside of the exterior brick wall? i was thinking maybe slathering mortar over chicken wire or hardware cloth just for some strength. then build closet frame close but not touching that, insulate and finish-
is it necessary to reinforce?
Replies
MSM
do i need to add reinforcement to a recently exposed old exterior brick wall?
This sounds like brick veneer?? If so, be aware that brick veneer is just that. A veneer.
1. It needs to be supported ( tied to your frame )
2. It is not waterproof.
Brick veneer construction relies on a cavity between the brick and the framing to control moisture problems. Typically, in our construction, a cross section would be brick, 50mm cavity, sisalation ( in your case maybe sheathing ) , frame, internal lining.
Your proposal of slathering mortar over chicken wire or hardware cloth just for some strength. then build closet frame close but not touching that, insulate and finish-
is not one I'd recommend.
If the area you are discussing is only small, then your brickwork may be sound enough on its own, however that still leaves the issue of moisture control.
More information would be helpfull, perhaps some photos?
regards
Mark
http://www.quittintime.com
thank you so much for replying, mark! i posted a photo at the other thread where no one replied, but forgot to here, so i'm attaching to this post...house is a 1935 bungalow, somewhat Craftsman in style.
the brick area shown is 16" deep x 54" wide x 89" tall. what you see in photo is the single layer exterior brick. this whole area sits out behind the rest of the exterior wall, out past the wall studs.
red ovals show 2 rows where some small metal ties are embedded; probably to attach to the bricks that were inside, but they are bent up immediately at a right angle and did not appear to be attached to anything. there were no studs or any other structure in this area, just the wall you see surrounding but not touching 6 solid brick walls. (the 2 x 4 in the picture is new; just leaning there).thank you for the instruction on how to proceed with the interior; that was going to be my next question. moisture is definitely a problem where i live. fyi, my suggestion of mortar and chicken wire or hardware cloth was in addition to, not instead of, other steps. i was concerned about ensuring the strength of the exterior wall before i built the closet and cut off access from the inside. (BTW, the closet will be built out into the room as well, as per red lines at bottom of photo, following an inlaid design in the oak floor under the nasty carpeting, to give a total of about 40" depth, after framing and drywall eats up some inches). this is humongous compared to the inadequate closet space in the rest of the house. if i did not need the space so badly, i would have left all the bricks in place.when you say 'sheathing'. are you refering to rigid foam board?
do i need to add a layer of plywood?
ie, working from the outside inwards, would it be: the brick veneer, 50 mm cavity, poly sheathing, plywood, studs (including fiber glassinsulation), then drywall... ?thank you so much mark! hope to hear more from you soon. have a grand 4th of july weekend-
Edited 7/1/2005 11:49 pm ET by MSM
MSM
If you take a look at the link you will see some desirable aspects of brick veneer construction. In particularlar note the " seat" in the concrete slab to take the brickwork. This is set down from the floor level so that any water finding it's way through the brick, can run down and exit through weep holes at the "seat ".
Study this cross section and it will answer a lot of your questions.
http://www.buildingscience.com/housesthatwork/hothumid/houston.pdf
It is a difficult process to give advice from distance ( and upside down ) but the objective is keep the water out. My gut feeling from looking at your photo is that you'll be fine as far as needing to reinforce the brickwork. ( Is the brick sound? Does it display any cracking ? ) Another thing you may wish to consider is making up a cupboard unit in mdf melamine and "parking" it in the closet space. This would eliminate framing and sheetrock in this area. ( maintain a cavity ).
You mentioned following an inlay in the floor for the walls that will project into the room, but have you considered the practicality of how much closet space you will acheive? I presume you will hanging a door? Are you looking for hanging space?
By moving the proposed walls out to the edge of the windows on either side you may give yourself enough room to have a centered door with hanging either side. ( just a thought )
regards
Markhttp://www.quittintime.com
thanks again mark!
btw, if you are upside down, i guess you don't celebrate the 4th, LOL. have a good weekend anyway-the storage space i gain will definitely be worthwhile. i have too few, too small closets. re the centered door, i'm actually going to re-use 2 original doors on either short side wall so that the parallel wall facing into the room is nice and blank. i want and need a plain, unbroken wall in this busy little house crammed with doors and windows and elaborate woodwork on every freakin' wall.
the doors i am using are only 17" wide; one came from the coat closet (only 8" deep and not very wide inside and i just drywalled it over and opened it out into the bedroom behind it as a niche like you suggested for the cupboard. adding space from studs, plaster & lathe, etc, the niche in the bedroom is deeper than the closet was). the door was in an annoying place in the living room. the other 17" door went from dining room to hallway, the main path to the bedrooms and main bathroom. (when i lived in the house, a large friend once got stuck in this doorway). the doors and framing will fit nicely into the hearth area to the front of the plaster walls. your idea of the cupboard/wardrobe parked in the space is not bad, but would it would net me less space. i want this sucker to be floor to ceiling; will run new crown molding around the top, to match room. becuase of the inlaid design in the floor, the whole unit will look original, which i like. inside will be a hanger bar running the length of closet, with a shelf above it also running the length; the access from either side will keep me from having to go too deeply into the closet through the narrow doors, and will also be convenient for multiple tenants when we move and rent this out to college students in a year or so (we're in a university neighborhood).i haven't actually sketched this out on paper yet (a good idea, i know! LOL) but i'll try to do that and post it.
i know some of my decisions may sound questionable, but there's a method to my madness.
now i'm off to read the link you posted- thanks again!
Edited 7/2/2005 12:41 pm ET by MSM
MSM
when I suggested parking a unit in the space I did not mean a wardrobe. I meant a purpose built unit floor to ceiling, wall to wall. ( I was waving my hands around at the time of typing those words but evidently you did not see my gestures ).
Yes definately draw out your proposal and then check your dimensions with closets you are comfortable with. I think what you are proposing is going to be a very tight fit.
regards
Markhttp://www.quittintime.com
OMG! what a great website, thanks! i am an artist and a picture is worth a thousand words to me-
I read down through your interaction with Mark and he has given good advice. But there still stills seems to be the unsolved moisture problem. The chimney is capped here and the moisture would be migrating through the brick and mortar. So other than saying 'Ah I think you'll be all right', this is a pretty difficult problem to properly solve. I could say to try to water proof from the inside but probably the inside is not 100% accessible for proper application. And I'm not sure that this is even good advice. But I am always interested in helping people wanting to do the right thing. I work with a guy who has almost 40 years experience as a mason. I will make a note in my palm pilot to ask him on Tuesday. Funny thing as he is kind of a gruff character that thinks that forum is for for people with nothing better to do, which I guess he has a little point but hey its better than TV. Anyway I always have to be discreet in the asking which is amusing to me. But I'm sure he'll either have good advice or. or say, "ah that guy is screwed" we'll see.
Edit; Although when I was making the note to myself it dawned on me, as a carpenter my advice would be if you could extend the sheeting plane from the left with ply and even 1-5/8'' metal stud. As long as the bricks weep holes still work. You should end up with the same scenerio behind your closet as you have left of your closet
Edited 7/2/2005 7:45 pm ET by quicksilver
tight, like everything, is relative LOL. i zipped thru the 17" doorway (which will be recycled to boh ends of the closet) 12 times a day or more back when i lived there for about 18 years. the interior of the new closet should wind up being about 36" x 60" after the materials are in place, and the 60" dimension can be accessed from both sides, so you'd never need to go deeper that 30 " from either door. i know from having been in many of the other houses in the neighborhood that my solution, weird as it is, is better than what they have. as i mentioned earlier, we will probably only live there another year, 2 at the most and then will turn it into a rental like over half the houses around us.mark, my first impression about the cupboard thing was what you actually meant, but after thinking about it i could not imagine the details and due to my inability to picture it properly, it just seemed like it would be too flimsy. then it occurred to me that i do have a nice large art deco wardrobe i could stick in the space... but i'd still have to finish out the wall with insulation from temperature and from noise (fraternity row is just down the block). please elaborate on what you were talking about and i'll watch more carefully for hand gestures this time.QS- i'm not sure what you mean by the inside not being accessible-- when you look at the first photo i posted, you are looking right at the inside plane of the exterior brick wall.i'll try to post the 2 'blueprints' i drew today . it's not to scale exactly, but looks pretty close to the correct proportions.
the fist one is what's there right now and the second one is what i was thinking of doing...
QS- i'm not sure what you mean by the inside not being accessible-- when you look at the first photo i posted, you are looking right at the inside plane of the exterior brick wall.I realize that but I was concerned that if I was going to give you advice to waterproof which as I said I'm not sure is even good advice that there might be a foor system in the way above or if you could even reach to water proof up in the old chimney. I looked at your drawing and think that you came up with an exellent solution.
thanks for the critique, QS!
re the chimney- possibly i used the wrong term... it was completely removed, capped off at attic level, and roofed over in 1997. when i "took out all the bricks", that included the few that were still in the attic on top of the tower of brick filler. they are all gone gone gone.
so to summarize so far-
the brick wall is solid and sound, so no reinforcement is necessary?and the new structure goes like this: 1" space away from exterior bricks, then rigid foam moisture barrier, then studs spaced with fiber thermal insulation, then drywall.
but do i need to attach the ties embedded in it to my new structure? to the studs, through the moisture sheathing?i'm taking my sketch to review with my dad when we visit tonight, he used to be brilliant with these things. but age and health issues have robbed him of much of his knowledge. some days are better than others, so i hope he'll be in the mood to chat about these plans with me. on bad days, he gets frustrated and angy that he doesn't know things he used to. he really used to enjoy solving problems with me.
thanks for working through this, and have a great 4th!
think that you came up with an exellent solution
There have been two dilemma on this that have been nagging me.
First, was how to get the brick ties tied back to the new wall structure.
Second was getting a good weatherplane put on the new walls. In "normal" construction, the stud walls would go up, then be sheathed, then given a nice layer of felt paper. Then the masons liberally sprinkle that nice, pristine surface with brick ties, then cover with veneer brick. That sequence is not readily possible here.
So, what to do?
I'm thinking that the closet fram might be pre-assembled, sheathed & papered, then slid into the opening and set to the floor & wall structures.
I'm thinking that just not disturbing the existing brick would be best, too. The way I've seen masons do repair work (like on shower-ruined walls), is to take a pattern of four bricks (one low, two middle, one top) out wher the brick ties "want" to be on the wall; set the ties, then repoint the bricks back in. That's a piece of work for this small, and seemingly stable area. Not the sort of thing a DIY mason ought to be fussing with, either.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
yep, cap'n, those are the 2 bugaboos that i have to figure out before i proceed.
sadly, dad wasn't in the mood to talk about the project. he's aware of what he's lost, and it frustrates him.
so-
i figure, like you cap'n, that i get those3 adjacent wall frames clad before permanently mounting in place. then lift into place temporarily, and mark where the current ties in the bricks would meet the frame. then lay it back down, sheath it, drill small access holes at the marks, at an angle so the hole is in the side of the stud.
then set it back up after i have figured out the next brilliant step of how to anchor them blind with the sheathing on...one idea, dependant on the question of how strong does the tie connection have to be? would some galvanized wire be okay?
how about this: thread long pieces of galvanized wire through the holes in the old anchored tie "plates" (i have no idea what they are actually called)- - long enough wire, a yard or so, to be able to thread through those access holes on the frame while the frame is not fully in place, with enough room to reach behind to manuever the wires. then shift the wall into place and gently draw the wires through the angled holes and anchor them around a screw driven into the open side of the stud, after the entire framing is finished so as not to yank the ties and the brick wall.??
the next brilliant step of how to anchor them blind with the sheathing on
Well, I had the under-brillinat idea of telling you to use board sheathing, so the ties could be brought in between the joints and nailed from the back--but then, there'd be no weather plane. The tar paper/builder's felt/asphalt-impregnayed paper, is the actual weather plane on your house (the brick is there so as to be a surface which is low maintanence--no painting, unlike wood claps); said brick also weeps moisture, which we do not want on your sheathing, the studs, or the stuff in the closet.
Which is where I went with closet-as-a-unit; I still have no good idea about how to make the top transition with either sheathing or weatherplane (other than to build 14-16" low, and wriggle all that in from on top--not a workable idea so far).
Running from memory, there were not that many in-place brick ties, and this is in or near metro chi-town. If memory serves, you're supposed to have brick ties 18" on center, both ways. Said ties are supposed to be fully bedded in the brick mortar and frimly attached to the building's structure. That like means having to make hols in the brick once the stud wall is up and fastened down.
Lets see if I can communicate the brick thing semi graphically.
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The table function does not admit to an offset 9at lest in the present time I'm likely to spend at it <weary grin>), but will work in its way. On the outside, we'd locate the brick ties, falling on a joint between two bricks ( 1 & 2). Taking our masonry chisel, we'd tap at the mortar around 1 & 2 until they turned a bit loose. Once out, we'd then take after 3 & 4. Like kid's blocks, the wall will generally hold together for this sort of thing. Using our rather small hole, we'd fish the tie in, tack it off, and bend it to land right under brick 4.
Brick 4 then gets buttered with mortar and replaced. Ditto bricks 1 & 2. Three is a bit trickier for needing pointing and buttering, but that all evens out.
Now, going every other tie (they're every six courses up and 2 1/2 bricks apart at 18"--mostly--many holes in the wall), that's still quite a few bricks to fuss with, and really tiny batches of mortar to mix, too. A bit daunting for a first time mason.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
hi mac- your first verbal description of tie placement was perfect- i was able to visualize the diamond pattern you drew in your last post.
what i'm confused about is this: the original wall had only 2 horizontal rows of ties to begin with, and that has stood just fine for 70 years... must i add more ties now?
Here's the comment from the other thread, per your request:
59975.4 in reply to 59975.3
the original wall had only 2 horizontal rows of ties to begin with, and that has stood just fine for 70 years... must i add more ties now?
Ah, well, the "good old days" were sometimes better and worse than today.
What was in the space before? Was it another wythe of brick? I've seen some chimney chases built with a 'seperation' space rather like that (but I've never found a contemporary reference to describe it as common or accepted masonry practice).
Now, the "do I hafta now?" question is tricky. It could be that the local building inspection depatment might think they hae a considered opinion in the matter (might not, too). If the Bi is involved, you definitely have to rebuild to whatever the current codes are.
Now, having said that, I feel compelled to point out that you may be in violation of local laws & ordinances in performing this work without permits and/or inspections. That, engaging in futher structural work without approval of the AHJ could constitute a crime (etc., yada yada yada--there, I said it, it's moot for now, I'm moving on--jees, when did building turn inta jr lawyering anyways <doan answer that, I already know>).
You may recall that in an earlier post I speculated that the still standing wall might be best left alone. That could still be true. I'm bothered by the "can see daylight through" comment, though. There's Chicago Brick and there better Chicago Brick. I'm way too far away to judge. And, I'm just a voice on the internet (be like gunner and just be 16, too <wink>).
Did this thread move, and lose a bunch of postings?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
yikes- Bis and violations... what a can of worms.just a reminder (to myself) that i did not just decide to yank a perfectly sound fireplace out of the wall out of the blue... the entire face had been pulling away from the wall for years and the wall above the mantle was crumbly, cracked and obviously in need of major work.so-the "see sky" pinholes (a few largr but most small; about 20 spots) appear to be original openings, looing at the shape of the mortar. i had my husband patch them already- dang. could used the bigger ones for new anchors?mac- yes, the space was filled with about 6 or 7 walls of brick, only minimally tied to the outer wall with the anchors.
this is why i figured it would be okay to build into this space, with a margin of airspace... did not seem a bit different structurally from what was there before.oh well........ moving on... my next problem is how to frame out the bottom. it's going on top of concrete/cement and tile, but there's a slight slope down over a rough floor at the back.
i think pouring some underlayment may be the best way to get a level and smooth work surface. is there any problem with that? the front of the space is about 3" lower than the rubbly back.
okay, our builder friend (who i had a call in to but has been too busy) finally came by. he's good, too- knows what he's doing.
he thinks the whole shabang, as i have it drawn, will work fine. advised me about the floor problem too: could to fill it in with cement to level, or shim up low area with plywood and cover with plywood. i'm deciding.re the brick wall, he saw it IRL and thinks it's fine with no ties added.
his fix for the brick wall situation is a new one:
he liked my idea of embedding some sort of mesh for strength but he suggested using canned foam and covering with plastic while it cures. voila; moisture barrier.whatcha think?