All
I got called to a house today (built in 2001). The newel post is loose. The one on the right.
The only thing holding it in place was the rosette on the wall. The hand rail was toenailed to the post. It was reasonable tight.
Since I didn’t know anything about the construction and I have not done alot of stair work I proceeded slowly.
There is a SR finished ceiling downstairs and a closet. I removed SR in closet but I could not get access. Wall plates and I-joists were in the way.
The floor system is 12″ I joists.
When we got the newel post up, just by lifting.
We decided to cut the toenails and seperate the hand rail from the newel post.
Then the post slid right out. Now sign of glue anywhere.
The stair side runs right along side of the OSB of a floor joist. The room side (bottom of the picture) has a 1/2 gap to another I-joist. A electrical staple is shown protruding.
I plan to slip a piece of 1/2 ply down on that side. The go to the stair side. Drill a couple of 1″ holes in the SR, exposing the I-joist and then driving 3-4 Torx lags or deck lags into the newel post.
My question is what kind of glue should I use? Tite bond? Gorilla glue? PL400?
Next question. Is there a better way to attach the handrail to the newel post rather than toenails?
Next question. The rosette was attached with finish nails. It held pretty well considering that it had a lot of rocking from the bad newel post. If the post is secure then will finish nails be sufficient to hold the rosette and handrail?
Thanks
Rich
No glue here either.
Edited 8/24/2009 11:40 pm ET by cargin
Replies
Use rail bolts
http://www.stairfasteners.com/s_rail.htm
Ralph
Thank You
Rich
Did they hack through the top chords of a double I joist?
That's what it looks like in the 4th picture.
Hopefully those joists are not doubled because they're supporting a lot of load. That could be a recipe for disaster, I would imagine.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon
Did they hack through the top chords of a double I joist?
Yes they cut thru the top chord.
There is a double I-joist under this newel post and they both rest on (or at least partially on) a 2x4 wall.
That it is what you see at the bottom of the picture.
Rich
Rail bolts and PL 400.
Bill
PL400 because it will fill gaps?
If I get a tight pocket to slide the post into, is the PL400 going to be to thick?
I have to work thru the 2 1/4" square hole in the top.
Thanks for the reply.
Rich
yes...
add mechanical fastening while yur there...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
If that tenon fits pretty tightly, I think you could slather it with PL premium. Get a mechanical fastner into the tenon to keep the PL from raiseing the newel as it expands while it cures.Run a screw through the back of the rosette into the rail. Screw and plug the rosette to the wall.Rail bolts are a pain in that situation. Countersink for a ledger screw through the newel into the rail.The shoe rail normally gets a fillet in there.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Snort
Rail bolts are a pain in that situation.
Why? Because I would have to glue the tendon, glue the spindles and try to slide it all together so that I could rock the newel enough to get rail bolt into the hole.
The shoe rail normally gets a fillet in there.
Then I wouldn't have to erase his pencil marks. :)
The pencil marks were clearly showing when I first looked the job.
Rich
I've had success with this set up... 15$
http://www.stairwarehouse.com/newel-fasteners.html
View Image
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
IMERC
I did one of those in a retrofit situation about 8 years ago.
It was suprising strong.
Rich
<Why? Because I would have to glue the tendon, glue the spindles and try to slide it all together so that I could rock the newel enough to get rail bolt into the hole.>Sorta. I'm not sure what your schedule is, or other logistics like kids in the house, folks needing to use or be protected by that rail, etc.b but...I'd get everything dry fit, drill a hole thru the newel, and a pilot in the rail. Slipping the rail over a protruding rail bolt stresses connections, scrapes up the sheetrock, and causes general frustration and malaise. You can cut a slot for the bolt, but then you've got to fill that.Then I would set that newel, with adhesive or epoxy, and do the rail the next day.I'd glue in those balusters, slide the rail in place, trim screw off the rosette, and then the newel/rail connection. Plug the hole, shave with a chisel, and dab a little lacquer on the plug.And, it's 1/2" super slim on the rail bolt wrench<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Snort
I will keep that all in mind as I tackle the job next week.
Thanks for the helpful replies.
Rich
Snort and All
We did the job a couple of weeks ago.
I ordered a rail bolt kit, wrench and a maple plug.
We shaved the post until it sat in the hole plumb ( with our new 1/2 plywood on one side)
We got our rail bolt holes ready, glued the spindles (top and bottom) .
Applied lots of PL premium to the tendon.
I drove screws thru the rosette from the back side 1st.
Then we assembled the whole thing, tightened the rail bolt and then drove some trim screws thru the rosette.
We drilled some 1" holes in the SR to access the I-joist. the we drove deck ledger screws in to the tendon.
I mixed some nail hole filler to cover the trim screws. I matched perfectly. The old nail hole filler was a poor match and poorly done. Too late now for me to fix that.
Then we used easy sand to patch the SR, cleaned up and left the HO happy.
Thank you all for the advice.
Rich
"cleaned up and left the HO happy."That's the kind of wrap-up we like to hear about!(Assuming you also got paid your wage, as well).AitchKay
AKay
I got paid.
Good people.
Rich
Good deal... how many times did you drop that rail bolt nut?<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Snort
We did it outside on a scap 2x4 set up 1st.
We dropped it a bunch outside because we had never used the wrench before.
So we practiced out near the grass. Real smart.
The wrench had a magnetic end (kind of weak) and a rubber band setup that helped to thread the nut.
Then my son got it on the 1st try.
Rich
That wrench is the ticket. For 20 years I used a 1/2" open/closed Proto I found at a flea market... real slim. Qtrmeg from here told me about the wrench you've got. All I had to do was buy it and I haven't had to do a railing with a bolt since!http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
snort
about the wrench you've got.
I figured if it saved me and the HO a 1/2 hour of me struggling then it was worth the money, ($21) even if I never use it again.
I will probably use it for other things, and other tight places.
Rich
IMERC
I plan on mechanical fasteners.
Then go to the stair side. Drill a couple of 1" holes in the SR, exposing the I-joist and then driving 3-4 Torx lags or deck lags into the newel post.
So you are saying use the PL400?
Rich
yup...
or up grade it to PL Premium.....
that is some serious adhesive...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Imerc
OK
Thanks
Rich
PL premium? So that's different than the polyurathane adhesive in the yellow & black tube, or is that the same stuff? It's a PITA to use, it seems to get everywhere, and it's awful to get that #### off your hands, but it is hands down the best gap filling glue there is. I think we're talking the same stuff because I don't even look at the name anymore, I just recognize the tube design and get it.
400 and premium are different animals...
keep a paint thinnered rag handy for clean up ot wear gloves....
learn controll... experiment...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Yes, and I think that Tite Bond and Gorilla Glue will be too thin.
Bill
Thanks for the input.
In the old days I would have just done the job with the best of my own knowledge.
Right wrong or somewhere in-between.
Today, with the internet and BT I can go to the guys and get some input.
Until I discovered BT I was the expert.
Now I don't know what I don't know. :)
Thanks for the reply.
I know the rail bolt hardware will have to be special ordered. I don't know if PL Premium is a stock item or not. I can't say if I have seen it in the yard or not.
Rich
PL Premium is a stock item...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
You should be able to get the rail bolt kit at Lowe's.
Ralph
We have one 30 miles away.
I have only been in the big city a couple of times this summer.
I'll need to get one with a maple plug and a tool to get into the hole.
It could get frustrating to do that operation with a clumsy open end wrench. :)
Thanks for the tip
Rich
The rail bolt kit I typically use contains only an oak and a poplar plug for a 1" hole. It's made by L.J. Smith Stair Systems. I don't have a full kit in front of me to check the size wrench needed but whatever it is I had no problem. I can't even remember which end of the wrench I use.<G>I'd call the store first to see if they had the kit. Make them physically check the shelves by the railings and treads.Check your phone book for a stair supply store or architectural specialties.Another product I use is the newel post kit which is just a huge rail bolt with curved washer and nut. The lag end screws straight down into solid blocking under the finished floor and the exposed machine screw end goes up into the base of the post through a clearance hole and the nut is placed through an 1 1/2" hole in the side of the post.
I had a similar job back in about 1980. The main differences were that 1) the house had been built back in 1830, and 2) the newel in question was located above an unfinished basement.
I went down into the basement, saw that the newel was tenoned down into the floor system, and that the tenon was wedged. A couple of whacks on that wedge earned me $200.
Sorry to gloat.
AitchKay
AitchKay
With helpful friends like that whos needs enemies. :)
Thanks for the story.
Rich