Hi All,
I’m new to this forum, so forgive me if I’m posting in the wrong place. I’m a homeowner who likes to fix things myself, not a professional. That will become abundantly obvious next.
My wife finally became fed up with the old school toilet required several flushes to clear things out and wanted a new toilet. So yesterday I installed a new toilet. We bought the house a little over a year ago (built in 1955), and one of the things that came up in the inspection was that the wax ring on this toilet was failing, and there was water damage under the bathroom. So the wax ring was replaced, and no more leakage problems.
Although thrilled at being able to flush the toilet, she complained that the toilet rocked a lot. Indeed it did. When I removed the old toilet, there appears to be a thin metal tube running down to the cast iron pipes below. I’m not sure what the metal tube actually is, but it looks like rolled up sheet metal. The toilet flange appeared to strictly be held on by a slightly flared lip at the top of the tube. The flange was free to wiggle quite a bit and appeared to just be a piece of this metal (or that’s all that was left). At some point in time it may have been screwed into the subfloor, but there is no subfloor remaining directly under it.
So I tightened them toilet bolts more, and it has reduced the rocking. I’m thinking the flange situation has to be fixed. Is it possible to do without redoing the subfloor (which does need to be done some day)?
Thanks
Replies
Like many repair situations, the answer to this depends on some factors not obvious to us readers. I'm guessing you have a lead pipe flared above the flooring and leaded into the cast iron below. Lead is pretty soft and cannot be fastened to. There may or may not be a more rigid toilet flange there. Are the toilet bolts threaded into the subfloor? Or are they T bolts into slots in the flange (if there is one)? Either way, a ridgid toilet flange of brass should be used. If there is not one, gently (so gently) bend up the lead flare into pleats so that you can slip a brass flange onto the pipe. Then go below and reinforce the floor around the lead with something (fir 1xs or pine 2x4s) so that the flange can be screwed into something solid, and then fasten the flange down. Make sure the slots are oriented so that the new T bolts can be located properly. Then gently bend the lead flare down tightly over the toilet flange. You're all set to remount your stool.
If the flange is rotted away ,not an unusual situation there are retro fit units available . The simplest is a PVC flange with a compression sleeve.
The sleeve slides into the pipe ans has an o ring that compresses by ttightening.
Than you install t bolts and wax and set the toilet.
Set the toilet on a bead of plumbers putty to seal it against the floor.
If the toilet was leaking very long, I would guess that you have at least a moderate amount of dry rot in the floor around the toilet. I had a similar situation. My sub-floor was 2x6 tongue and groove on 4foot 4x8 beams. To remove any of the 2x6's would have required running it under a wall. After digging out the worst of the dry rot, I was able to restore integrity to the existing sub-floor by using penetrating epoxy resin to soak into the slightly degraded 2x6's and then built the surface up with a standard epoxy resin. Since I didn't get a very good finish with the epoxy, I then finished it off with a more easily worked and sanded auto body filler. I am sure that the strength of the area around the toilet is both stronger and more water resistant than it was before the damage occured.
I have purchased penetrating epoxy from three sources, Rot Doctor http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/product.html , West System clear penetrating expoxy from a local boat shop, and a penetrating epoxy from a large local lumber yard. The stuff from the lumber yard did not work very well, but the West's and the stuff from Rot Doctor worked quite well. The stuff is pricey, however, and really porous wood will soak the stuff up like an elephant at a watering hole in dry season. The West System was $39.95 for 32 ounces while the Rot Doctor is $33.33 for the same amount, but there is a $7.00 shipping charge (a couple of bucks more outside the northwest.), so it comes out about the same. There have been a couple of other vendors of penetrating epoxy mentioned in the past, but I don't recall their names.
Three good answers, but all missed one important item. If the flooring is not even, the toity will rock (eventually) no matter how tight the bolts are torqued. Use shims to get it level and steady.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Ok, the suggestions sound great. Here's a bit more info though.
The joists look like they are ok, not rotted too bad. Interestingly (or perhaps not to someone experienced) the joists under the bathroom (original tile floor) look like 2x4's sandwiched between 1x4's, whereas all the other joists are 2x6's. There looks to be 1x6's as the initial part of the subfloor, resting on the joists. That's primarily where the rot is. On top of that, there is about 1 1/2" of concrete underlayment with mesh metal lath embedded. Oh what fun that will be to remove one day.
I shall attempt to attach some pictures for clarity. I looked under the other toilet, and it has the 1x6 wood all around the drain pipe. So I'm guessing the other toilet may have originally been that way too, and the flange was screwed down.
The black ring in the pictures is the entire flange, simply held on by the lip on the lead (?) pipe.
Where can I find the brass flanges mentioned? Is that something that my local big box store would have or do I need to go to a plumbing supply place for it?
Thanks again for the help!
I'm assuming all those pix were taken from below. Is there any wood there? Is that concrete? Looks like there is nothing whatsoever to fasten a new flange to. This is going to take a creative solution, if I'm perceiving the situation correctly. I'm thinking you need some plate steel surrounding the lead and fastened to the underside of the subfloor (whatever its material). From above, remove the flange, fill the void around the lead with patching cement. After it cures, fasten a new flange through the patch into the plate with stainless stove bolts.
Brass flanges should be easy to find.
Edited 10/15/2003 11:09:23 AM ET by Tim
Yes, sorry, those pictures were taken from the crawlspace. And indeed the stuff around the flange/lead is concrete, about 1 1/2 inches worth, with a metal lath embedded in it. The area around is a little over a square foot until you find wood.