My son has just purchased a new (previously owned) home that was built in the early 60’s. It’s a single family, brick split level located in Northern Virginia and has the original steel casement windows in it. One of the first projects we intend to tackle is to replace these with a premium aluminum clad window. The most recent issue of FH has an article about replacement windows but it answers only a couple of the questions that I have for this project. I want to replace the entire window because of the poor insulating quality and functioning of the old single glazed windows. Removing the entire window will also allow me to inspect the cavity surrounding the windw for insulation. What can I expect in terms of nailing flanges on these old windows and how tough is it going to be to get them out?
Jon the dad
Replies
On the ones we have replaced in the past, the nailing flange is behind the brick. It is challenging to remove, particularly if the mortar is real tight to the window. As I recall, the way we went about it was to remove the sash, and then cut the window frame into multiple pieces and then yank out the pieces. We cut them to minimize the number nails or screws we were working against and also to minimize any strength the steel frame.
You may end up having to remove the brick all around the window.
Another option to consider, not necessarily a cheap one is reglazing with insulated glass instead of removing the existing windows. I really like the old steel casements. Kolbe makes one that meet energy code that is really heavy and very expensive but absolutely beautiful.
Good Luck
Bruce
Thanks Bruce, your answer is pretty much what I was expecting. I figure that I can get most of the glazing out pretty quickly and then just use my angle grinder to cut the frame into sections like you suggest. If the windows were decent I would consider your second suggestion but they are in pretty bad shape.
Jon
Hi Jon,
Your post is in the Fest folder so it's not getting many views. Maybe a mod could move it for you.
Anyways, about the windows. I have replaced almost all windows in my home (brick veneer) with Marvins. And love them.
The current flanges are most likely behind the brick veneer. But there is an airspace between the framing and brick so there is some access. I removed the sashes and frames then worked on the flanges.
Got a sawzall? Cut the nails by slipping the blade behind the flanges. No reason to pull them. Chip out some of the excess mortar behind the brick if need be.
The whole job is more time consuming than difficult.
What windows are you considering?
Thanks JAlden;
This is my first post on this site (I regularly post on RoadFly which is dedicated to my other interest which is another poison) so I'm just learning the routine. But, yes, I have a Sawzall and the angle grinder so I don't expect the cutting to be too imposing, as you say more labor than intellect. But I really don't know what to expect between the drywall and the brick fascia, firring stips, insulation??? I suspect that with the Sawzall, the angle grinder and a good crowbar I can get the entire window out.
The first one I want to do a bit more carefully and not order the replacement window before I have the rough opening revealed. Which windows?, actually, I've had good luck with Marvin's in new construction but this is a new game for me. My son works in commercial construction and is partial to Jeld-Wen(?) but we are both looking for advice. I know, there are advocates and advantages to each (Pella, Andersen, Marvin, etc.). Since you were asking, since my rough openings are fixed, which manufacturer is best able to respond to the odd sizes that I might have?
Also, you suggest that I mod the post and put it into a more appropriate folder... how? Sorry for being stupid.
Jon
Marvin is one of the few companies that will custom size. The upcharge is about $125. It kind of depends but ...go to their site and call them. They have good instructions. You will still have to order through a dealer.
Measure your brick opening. Subtract 1/2 in on the width (1/4 each side) and 1/4 on the height. (For the top) This is the size you order. Measured at the outside of their brickmold. They will calculate the size. Order it and have it on site.
Don't worry about the jamb depth. Buy the standard. Add jamb extensions after the new window is in using clear pine.
Rip the old window out. Frame out the RO to accomadate the new window. Wrap with tar paper, from the bottom up. This is a very important part and more details are needed.
I did not buy the clad windows so I'm not sure where you would nail from. The side jambs? I had primed wood exteriors and nailed through the brickmold and painted.
I also built out the back of the brickmold before installing to accomadate the air space and cover some old caulk.
I should have taken pics when I did mine.
Jon, you might find some information useful by taking a look at THIS.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thanks, excellent.
Jon
No problem, you have more questions, ask away.
I don't know if I mentioned in that thread at QT or not about how I go about finding the wood frame R.O. In most cases I am fitting the window to the brick opening, allowing some room for uneven brick and caulk. However, I've not torn out all the steel windows in all the brick houses everywhere, so I cannot be sure that the wood R.O. is "x" in comparison to the brick r.o.
To verify the interior wood frame opening I'll drill Tapcon drill-bit size holes through the plaster returns, being careful not to tear up the plaster corner bead. Drill till you hit non plaster/mortar base and hit wood. The tapcon bit will drill through the plaster easy, slowing when it hits wood. Measure the penetration and add that to the visible opening.
This is important b/4 ordering, as you want it to fit w/o a bunch of hacking into the frame. You might have the benefit of tearing out (if you want to) the interior plaster returns (if not cased) and then order, knowing the size of the opening. With special orders taking 4 wks, I don't want to leave the customer with a #### hole till they arrive.
On most of these later window swaps I've used designer series Marvins. They can be sized to within a qtr inch. These are special order and cost more.
You can line the inside of the brick opening approx and inch and a half both sides and top if you want. Wrap that from brick to the groove in the face of the clad frame-with aluminum coil stock bent on site. This way you might be able to get into a stock size new construction window and save some bucks..
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Ok Calvin, Marvins can come with a variety of jam depths, from 3 9/16" to a lot more. How do I determine that dimension, measure from the old nailing flange (if I can find it inside the wall) to the drywall face or somemething else more mysterious?
Jon
In my recent installs, they wanted the plaster returns and the marble sills kept. I would usually remove the marble sills and sometimes cut them narrower to go up to the interior side of the window, depending on how far I would run the inside of the window into the opening.
Jamb thickness. Well, You want to have good coverage on top of the existing exterior stone (in my case) sill, and coverage on the sides of the brick and lintel. I would run into the interior edge of the plaster return. I usually have order the 4-9/16 jamb depth. On the QT thread house, I needed to cut back the plaster return about 3/4''. Not too easy as it was plaster and the scratch coat-much like mortar. Used the Fein multimaster again with the diamond blade with vac held next to it during the cut.
I guess I would open the window, make some marks and measure. If I needed deeper than an easily ordered size, I would add jamb extensions. On one job, a 3/4 cove molding looked real nice finishing the jamb to plaster surround. I'll see if I can find a picture of that and post it if I do.
All the above were for casement windows by the way.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I did not use a nailing flange on any of these installs jon. On some I used their clips that fasten into the slot the nailing flange goes in. Added to this by installing a short panhead screw through the clip and into the jamb. These clips are then screwed to the interior framing.
On this job I removed the plaster bead, and the jamb side plaster returns. Fastened the clips and then drywalled the returns and rebeaded. The openings inside were wider than usual in relation to the brick opening. So, needed to either bring the sides in more on the plaster or add that cove moulding. I think I like it, which I guess is why I did it.
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edit: if you elect to screw through the jambs and into the framing to fasten the window, take caution of any workings inside the jamb. Casements might have some works in there in the latching mechanism. On some, there's one "latch" and 2 "latch-ee's''-high and low. The connecting rod runs up inside the jamb.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 2/21/2007 10:56 pm ET by calvin
Jon, here's an application using the clips I was talking about.
And a surprise on this window I was replacing. Did a few others in this house that were wood framing with brick veneer. Some hack and whack of the framing to get the good no trim fit outside.
Went to the garage to replace this one. Block with brick veneer. Old window was wood. Again, didn't tear off the trim or any demo b/4 ordering. Ordered to fit the brick opening outside. When it came, took off the wood casing inside and found the most unusual install yet. They had cut the block to fit around some let in wood subframe that held the window. The one I ordered would fit beautifully on the outside, but the block opening on the interior was an inch and a half too narrow along one side.............
So here's the clips that snap into the groove that normally holds the fins.
View Image
And because the frieze board was low on the ext, needed to set this one from the inside. As I work alone, used the Third Hand poles to keep the unit from falling out as it was lifted in position.
View Image
Never a dull moment-well, not often.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hey Jon
Read thru the thread and all suggestions sound good, regarding sizing and removal.
But I'm surprised nobody suggested using minimal expanding foam (GREAT STUFF or equivalent)to secure the window.
Set the window in place shim into place (squareX-level-plumb), check inside window frame margins(sash at frame straight -even, shim if needed), foam into place.
Foam a little, or foam alot, adjust amount on next window,cut or remove shims, foam more if need be.
I usually use the regular stuff(not the low or the triple)and just go around the window with a single squirt(not really trying to fill the hole just trying to get a continuous bead down). This is what expands and holds the window in place. Later after it has cured you can come back and add more.
I have not had a problem with this type of installation(unless you want/need to move the window).
GOOD LUCK,
DAVE
Interesting, no nailing clips or screws on the sides? Just the adhesive quality of the foam.
Jon
Yes it is.
Try a test, stick a piece of wood to cement block or for that matter a brick to a block, or anything to anything. The stuff is just thick Gorrilla Glue.I've used it to build Dry Laid stone walls and water falls in fish ponds.The first time I used this technique was about 20yrs ago......
big old mansion style house in Shaker Heights OH Built in the 20-30's.
Four windows in a turret that housed a grand circular stairs.Round windows set in a stone exterior, plastered masonry interior,ornate heavy oak trim, windows followed the stairs. Looked very neat.Wooden frames had rotted(?). I was able to remove the windows from the outside, not disturbing the inside trim, made new windows, stained, finished, and painted them.There was no framing.....none ......, the old windows had been literally been built-in.Spray foam was kinda new back then(new to me at least),a mason suggested to grout them into place. Seemed like a lot of work cement, sand, water, mix in something, grout bag ,high ladders,pointing trowel,experience, wood/water...? anywaysTried the foam, worked great, had the opportunity to go back to the house about5-6 years ago, windows are solid .Another great moment in building history!SHEESE, I should do a commercial.TRY IT, GOOD LUCKDave