*
Jack, Try this the next time you are wiring a string of receptacles….Make up a bunch of 8″ lengths of black and white wire. Strip both ends about 3/4″ and curl one end to go around a receptacle screw.( You can use #14 on most receptacles in the house). Attach the black and white wire to the receptacle while sitting at a nice comfortable workbench. Put all the assembled receptacles in a drywall bucket or box and take them with you and start hooking them up. Buzz those little leads on to the wires in the box with a power wirenut driver and I guarantee you will not only be faster at installing them, but will save your knees and make a much better connection.
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*
Jack, Now you've got to go out and get yourself an IDEAL T-Stripper (This is a tool)....I believe it's a T-10. It has a cable sheath cutter, a wire insulation stripper, and a wire bending hole to curl the ends of the wires. It is a fantastic tool! I usually just slit 16" of sheathing off the cable when rough wiring, cut 8" off and throw in a bucket to use for the pigtails, and then shove the cable with the sheathing removed into the box. I usually make the grounding pigtail at this time using the green wire nuts with the hole in the center and then fold the wires into the box. You can do this very quickly.
You can get the wire nut driver at any good electrical supply. I buy mine at Lowes. They have a hex shaft and fit wing type wire nuts. My friend used to complain that his fingers were so sore after a day of wire nut twisting, that he couldn't touch his wife's ... at night. He loves this tool!
Have fun on your next job!!
*
G,
Have three Ideal strippers, like like like.
Have combo flat blade screwdriver/nut driver too.
I don't know what a power nut driver is or looks like or if it is sold in tool area or electrical area of Lowes (nearby.) Any clarification appreciated.
b All in a flash,
Jack : )
*but my original Q was why must you bring both hots, if you don't need 240 and balance the loads on both sides of the master box? There must be a rule... I sense an NEC cite coming over the ether, any minute now...
*... all this and it doesn't open beer bottles? not interested :)
*Yes, I've heard that if you pinch or bend it sharply, it won't do high frequency transfers. So don't use a box in the wall, just a faceplate.Wouldn't do the doorbell -- 60 Hz AC "hum".
*Jack:I seem to have forgotten to tell you this is the best part of pigtails. You can wire them in a comfortable setting. If you do not use the green wire nuts with the hole, you can pig tail the grounds also.I have a wire stripper/cutter/hole for curling wire made by T&B ( Thomas & Betts ). The stripping action is 90 degrees from normal, it is on the end, not the side like all the others, so one pulls the insulation off with hand inline with the wire, not off to the side like using dikes. I went to buy another one, and the same supply house had no idea what I was talking about. It is no longer in the T&B catalog. Too bad.I also use the odd looking screwdriver by Klein. It works like a brace and bit on slotted screws. Most people would use a battery screwdriver, but this doesn't go dead while screwing on wall plates, and gives good control over snapping those cheap plastic wall plates.Power wire nut driver? I have seen the plastic hand powered drivers that fit over the winged varity, but not battery powered. Usually I just use my small 8" Kleins because my fingers get sore too. Is that plastic driver what you were referring to?
*Jack, There are two types of nut runners. I'm sure you would prefer the one that you use with a battery powered drill. You should find them right beside the wire nuts at Lowes. Less than $10. It's about 4" long with a 1/4" hex shaft and red plastic end to hold the wire nut. The other type looks like a speedwrench you use with a socket.
*Jack & G. :Around here in VA it is common to have 400 amp service because heat pumps are so prevalent. I would love to put the two 200 amp panels at opposite ends of the house to shorten wiring runs. But of course this violates several codes: the unfused run from the meter has to be as short as possible and all disconnects to a building have to be in the same space so 6 hand motions or less will shut off all power to the building. I have not checked out the cost of a 400 amp breaker in a raintight enclosure, but my guess it is high, or two 200 amp breakers in one enclosure...Speaking of the 6 hand rule, does anyone still install those awful split-bus panels that are so common around here? I like main breakers.Frank
*Maybe this is a good time to inject my question: Our relatively new (30 y.o.) Virginia breaker panel (I believe split-bus, though maybe I do not understand the term) has no master breaker -- cause for concern? I have no idea how I'd shut off all power, short of the one-hand-motion of sledgehammering the meter off.
*I have seen a few 120v panels, but I don't think they have been commonly manufactured for years. The point is not why bring 2 legs, but why not. You get twice the power at 120v by only bringing one more wire. Otherwise, you have to increase the size of all three, to get twice the power. Say you want 80 amps total at 120v. That is either an 80 amp 120v feeder or a 40 amp 240v feeder.
*I always put the front door light on a three way swithches. One outside the door so you can turn the light on when you get home after dark, one inside so you can turn it on if you are inside or turn it off after you come in.
*Andrew"YES! You have a split-bus panel. I had no idea you lived around here, but VA ( especially Richmond & Northern VA ) is known for having an abundance of lawyers. And VA is known for having an abundance of split-bus panels installed. When I was selling Cuttler Hammer in 1976-1978 these panels were still in the catalog, but I do not remember the warehouse stocking them. I seem to recall they were not allowed by the local inspectors by then. The big appeal to low buck builders was the lower cost. No big amp breaker to pay for. They were legal because of the NEC rule of 6 hand motions to turn off all the power in a building. If you look at your panel, you will see 6 two pole breakers usually clustered at the top. One of these breakers may be marked Main or Lighting Main. The power comes into the top and feeds all 6 upper breaker positions (12 poles). This would be the upper bus (the bars the breakers attach to for power). The Lighting Main feeds the lower bus bars. Hence the split-bus designation. You must turn off all 6 breakers to turn off all the power to the house. These split-bus panels were also available in fuse form in the 50's 60's, cartridge pull outs on top and screwins at the bottom.As to whether I would replace the panel, probably not as long as it was doing the job: Not running hot, the 6 top breakers not exceeding the amperage of the panel, enough spares to handle your house renovation, etc.Sledgehammer for meter not necessary unless you have one of those locked bands VA Power installs when they suspect the meter has been tampered with. When I changed the panel in my house, the meter reader must have seen the cut seal and installed one of those tamper-proof bands. I had to get them back out to remove it so I could continue working and install new meter base.
*Frank,Thanks for all the descriptions and methods talk.We both have most of the same tools! OK...I turn wingers by hand and do like the small size of these compared to non-wingers.b All wired up but know need to plug in,Jack : )
*I don't know about you, but my fingers callous up and crack if I do enough wire nuts by hand. Easier to give them a spin with the lineman's pliers, and less risk of over/undertightness. (How do you know when to stop turning? Pain threshold?)I think I asked earlier -- does anyone use crimp connectors instead of nuts?
*Also if you are going to use this subfeed panel for the stove/ovens you will need the 240 volts.
*
Speaking of wire. Any ideas of what I can use a bunch of old 8 wire phone cable (non twisted) for.
In my new house, can I use it for security system, thermostats, door bells or ?
Hate to toss it, Dave L.
*
Well, OK, what about the NBA player who needs to moonlight as an electrician? Some of those guys are just scraping by, you know.
*
Frank, et al;
Split-bus load centers for residential went out for good in the 81 ? NEC
Cheers; JE
*When did the split bus come in? My condo, done in the early 60s, has a main fuse (125A ctg. fuses in carrier) and wiring in EMT. Our place in Bellevue, done in the 70s, had a split bus.
*It's been 12 ga. and 20 amp. here in Anchorage for years. An owner builder I know flew his retired electrician brother up here from Arizona to pull wire in the log home I built for him. The poor guy was 70 something and froze his wire nuts off. They spent 2 weeks pulling 14 ga. which all had to be yanked out. Right about then was when they decided to hire a local electrician who knows how to make his inspector happy.
*
Patrick: maybe the CAT ran after the wireless mouse.
*Personally, I don't like the idea of a stranger being able to turn OFF the outside lighting.Of course, your switch idea is unusual enough that a burglar wouldn't think to look for such a switch. Do you try to hide the outdoor switch? I assume it would have to be in a waterproof cover as well.
*Merced county has required 12 ga. for years. Even though some of their housing is the poorest in the state of California, they wisely insist on good wiring. Probably have a problem with people (especially renters) using electric heaters on low amperage wiring.
*
G., Jack, et al;
I love the finger saving feature of power wirenut drivers, but I am caution of the "nut" operating the tool. Too many times I've seen them stab in the wire ends & fire up the driver
b WITHOUT
twisting the wires first.
Wire nuts are insulators held in place by screwing then on the wire connection. Wire nuts do not replace the mechanical connection of tightly twisting the wire ends together BEFORE hand. Some wire nuts have a brass screw lug and the plastic cap screws onto the body. These are the ONLY ones that do not require the wires twisted.
Pigtails are nice, but you need the larger boxes for the extra wire. Each piece of Romex brought into the box must have the sheath extend (no less than) 1" into the box AND (no less than) 6" of free wire. One in, one out, & one receptacle adds up to 18" of insulated wire and then the grounds......
Cheers; JE
*
Have any of you guys thought of putting a subpanel on each floor? Main in basement, sub 1 near kitchen, sub 2 near 2nd floor laundry. Overkill - absolutely. Incredibly handy when the second floor will be unfinished for a few years - yep, that's the real reason. but no walking four sets of stairs to turn a breaker on for the "smoke test."
How many of you guys pull 3-wire so that you can use it for two circuits? Around here you can, but you must pigtail the receptacles so that the neutral can be re-connected and not be hot from essentially the other "leg" remaining on.
Also ran cat5 & RG59 to all rooms in the house. The cat 5 has five pairs, you only need 2 pairs for ethernet, so you can use the same wire for voice and data.
-Rob
*J.E. You are absolutely right! You should always twist wires together with a pliers before wire nutting them. I like to strip them about 1", twist and then cut them off shorter with the lineman pliers and then buzz the nut on....I also like BIG boxes. Makes everything so much easier doesn't it?
*On the common neutral thing, in the DIY thread we drifted off into a phase discussion that left me wondering whether using a common neutral is OK unless the two hots are exactly 180° out of phase -- and it sounded like they often enough aren't. The idea of the dual-use neutral in general still makes me nervous -- someone could later "innocently" swap breakers around and cause a big problem.Tsk, tsk, RG59 is the cheap stuff. Just ask cyberMongo.
*Rob, As long as you brought up the subject of running 3-wire.........I personally don't think this is a good idea, especially for a DIY. It saves a run of wire but poses some real potential danger too. The two hots must be hooked to opposite legs on your panel. This is accomplished by using some type of double breaker which is locked together. If someone down the road doesn't understand this and decides to rearrange his breakers for some reason and switches those hot leads to the same leg on the panel, you will wind up with an unfused neutral carrying possibly twice the amperage that it should. This is a real fire hazard.Secondly, if the neutrals are not pigtailed (which is a very common practice) and you have a bad neutral connection somewhere downstream toward the panel, you will wind up feeding up to 240 volts to anything that is operating on opposite legs of the circuit. If you have never seen this happen, I assure you it is quite spectacular! You press your toaster down and the kitchen ceiling lights light up like an arc welder.You can usually buy 12/2 for less than 1/2 the price of 12/3 , so the only real savings is a little labor. I would suggest that the average Joe just stick with the regular method of wiring.A bad neutral connection on the incoming feed or loose aluminum wiring on older mobile homes wired with this method caused lots of problems and I'm sure quite a few fires.
*I have VERY minimal experience with electrical, so I read the directions. The directions that came with the wire nuts I bought said not to twist the wires together before putting the wire nut on. The statement "You should always twist wires together...before wire nutting them" is not in agreement with the directions.Why should I ignore the directions? Always willing to listen to reasons,Rich Beckman
*Rich,If you haven't bought your basic "How to book" yet pick up the Readers Dijest version of it in your local bookstore. For a DIYer it's packed with basics such as electric wiring graphics showing how to "make up" your connections, etc.Electricians pretwist wire connections, eyeball that all is well, then twist on wire nut to complete. If done well insulation will cover wire just into the wire nut and the pros won't wrap all with electric tape. DIY literature often shows the extra taping for whatever reason.Jack : )Jack : )
*Rich, Jack pretty well covered the reasons. A wire nut should be used to maintain and insulate a connection, not to force the wires into a twisted position. You simply can't tell exactly what is happening inside the nut if you just buzz them on. Did one of the wires pull back out of the connection? Is the wire nut threading onto the insulation instead of the wires? etc. The reason I like to strip them a little long and then twist and cut is so you can see that all of the wires are firmly connected and of the same length. It's also very important to use the RIGHT SIZE nut.
*I twist & trim the wires as you describe -- the small and compressed tip makes it easier to get a smaller (but appropriate) wire nut on right, too. I figure the connection should be solid and self-supporting before adding the wire nut, or even if the wire nut fell off (it's obsessive, but I angle the wires up a little so the nut can't even fall off ... no tape).Connecting a stranded to a solid conductor is harder. The stranded tends to get puched down or cut up by the nut, which doesn't stick well anyway. I bend the solid a little bit and stick the stranded in the nut all the way first -- there must be a faster way?Finally, do (should) the pros wrap their receptacles -- or anything permanent for that matter -- with electrical tape? I don't, I just make sure the ground wire is coiled in the back bottom of the box, that I can't pull the wires out of the wire nut, and that the receptacle screws are all the way in. ... at least I try to do so consistently ... Tips?
*andrew,Your "wire nut" ways will work well for any who are in the need to know, with one little change that I'll throw in...In regard to "Connecting a stranded to a solid conductor is harder. The stranded tends to get pushed down or cut up by the nut, which doesn't stick well anyway. Yes and yes.This is the "little" change...(I bend the solid a little bit)...there's no need to bend the solid wire, but the stranded wire should be pretwisted nice and tight and then stick the stranded wire in the nut all the way first --Pull test the completed set up (give each wire a gentle tug.)Good tips andrew,Jack : )
*Well gentlemen I guess I'm the odd-man-out here, but I do not pretwist my wires. First the facts: The UL listing of wirenuts does not require pre-twisting as one of the above posts implied. I currently prefer IDEAL brand nuts, the instructions on the bag stating "...Pretwisting unecessary. Hold stripped wires together with ends even....screw on connector - push wires firmly into connector when starting."I use a wire stripper so the copper doesn't get nicked, then pinch the conductors an inch or so from the stripped ends between my thumb and forefinger, tap the ends with the thumbnail of my other hand to line them up even, then squeeze the wires hard so none of them slip back while I (manually) screw on the nut with the appropriate IDEAL driver. When the unstripped part of the conductors start to twist together the connection is done. I pull gently on each conductor to doublecheck, then push it into the box. After doing this for a while you develop a pretty good sense of how much pressure to use and how much insulation to strip to get it right.Twenty years in the trade and still going at it...Lee
*You're right about that problem Andrew. I see it often in residential panels.Lee
*
Lee,
I'm glad to see someone with the correct perspective on this issue. You hit the nail on the head when you brought up the matter of UL listing and following instructions. The installation instructions that accompany a UL listed product reflect the conditions under which said product is tested and approved. To install contrary to instructions is misuse of the product. If one feels more comfortable pretwisting conductors it would be advisable to switch to a brand of connectors which require this, such as Buchannan B-Cap connectors or Ideal Marette.
*HD prices have dropped and are now:Cat 5: .14c/ft or $79/1000'(.08c/ft)RG6 Quad shield $69/500'Within the next few months they are also supposedly going to start carrying some of the fancy central connection stations.Dave L.
*What!! NO one is putting in optical fiber?
*
Ed, You sound like a conscientious fellow, who with 20 years experience probably does very good work and makes good wirenut connections. Now let me give you another slant on this from a GC who has to deal with the problems that pop up after a home or commercial building is completed.
Of all of the things that could go wrong with a new building, the two things that I get called back about most frequently are: leaks in plumbing fixtures and lines and poor electrical connections causing dead circuits, tripped GFCI breakers, and problems with lights and computers.
If the loose connection occurs at a wirenut , it is ALWAYS at a connection where the wires were not pretwisted. Some electricians that work for us always pretwist wires and some never do, but I have never seen a bad connection where the wires were pretwisted. The most common cause of this seems to be that the wires were stripped too short or not arranged properly when nutting. You have to use some judgement here too. Small wires certainly don't need to be pretwisted, but 3 or 4 # 12's would certainly benefit from it.
Just because the box says it's "not necessary" doesn't mean you couldn't do a better job by twisting them before wire nutting them. The excuse I usually get from the electrician who screwed up is " It says right on the box that you don't have to pretwist these nuts" Does this teach anyone a lesson? I doubt it. But my advice to anyone undertaking a project on his/her own is to pretwist the wires and use the correct sized nut and I GUARANTEE! you will NEVER have a problem with that connection!
I'm the guy who gets the first phone call when there's some kind of problem and I see this as one of those easily avoidable problems that should never occur!
*G,I have had the same experience but will include another call back item...using the quickpush-in holes on receptacles causes just as many "why are the lights flashing" calls.I didn't post before mainly because I am very tired of being near any flame warzones...so please be polite to me if you feel you need to read back the directions on thewire nut bags...My grill's off and I'm out of propane,Jack : )(
*Flame wars? Here?I compliment Mr. G for his gentlemanly expression of complete disagreement. this exchange should be posted in the "how to use Breaktime" folder.Twisting them wires (it only takes a moment), Andrew
*andrew,I second the motion,...Twisting away,Jack : )
*Jack, That used to be #1.....By the way, in case someone doesn't know this, you can't use these push in terminals on 20 amp circuits anymore. Now we all know that you shouldn't use them on ANY circuit, but I guess the boys at NEC want to phase this troublesome practice out gradually!! The ironic fact is that the #14 wire which is currently acceptable makes a worse connection than the # 12 did, so go figure.
*ManIt's taken me two weeks to find my way back to this thread, what with all the diversions, tangents, flame wars etc, going on elsewhere!!I've got the CD-ROM, V90 modem, and laser printer on board but don't know about this i ethernet.Is that something you wear when you're hangin out with i gonzo journalistsso ya don't get any on ya???On a more serious note(b flat) has anyone any experience with interference(RF or otherwise) caused inside a home that is sheathed on the interior with foil faced RFBI???warmin up in Ontario-Patrick
*GaryNaw, the Cat got seriously pissed at being taken to the vet and made a bolt for freedom, about 40 miles from home with an awful lot of rough topography between here and there.
*OK, this is totally off-topic, but what's the deal with central vac? i know it's all the rage in new developments around here (along with those relaxing 90 db "jacuzzi tubs"), but is it really something useful?
*I know some people hate them, I know some consider them a total waste of money...but I have one.I grew up in a house lugging an elecrolux canister around. My wife had the central vac. When we designed our house, I thought she was nuts to want to spend almost a grand on a vac, so we plumbed and wired but didn't install the vac unit (motor).We've got all hardwood, 3200 feet of brazilian cherry. Two kids and no mudroom (that and the garage are the millenium addition). After dragging the damn regular vac out for a few months I finally got clued in that once again, she has the brains. Bought the central vac, hitched it up, WOW. It's great. Truly such a convenience. Now, we pull it out often to hit near the kitchen door, mostly to get the grit that gets tracked in before the hardwood gets trashed, but it seriously takes less then a minute. The 35' hose makes it easy to maneuver.The vac unit is down in the basement so when the vac is on it's quiet upstairs, easy to converse. Also, with the unit in the basement there's no dust blowing through the filter and being blown back into the house. I install them in ALL houses now. If the homeowner resists, we plumb only. Plumbing runs about $100-120, outlets $50-75. I use Electrolux which has the low and high voltage in the same outlet, so a duplex outlet is not required near the vac outlet. The motor unit can be added whenever.Carpeting hides dirt much better than hardwood, so if the homeowner has carpeting and is only going to vac once a week, it may be just as easy (and financially more sensible) to use a regular vac. For me, though, since we use it everyday, even just for a minute or even ten, it's terribly convenient. Had I not installed one, I'd probably vac less often and the floors would show it.
*
Jack Location location location, a sub-panel near the kitchen should not be a cookie cutter statement, as some panel are sufficently close enough to the kitchen to begin with and there is a good argument for a single location for the panels and sub-panels that control a home. I personally put a switch in the sink cabinet to cut the power to the dishwasher and another to the garbage disposal so they can be serviced without finding the panel and breaker, furthermore if a kitchen is properly wired the breakers should never trip anyway. If the conditions warrant it I agree that a sub-panel closer to the kitchen (heart of most homes) could be beneficial however in most of the new omes I've wired the panel is in the basement and the kitchen has rarely been far enough away to make a sub-panel worth the effort.
*
Robert,
Good post,...Your "differences" are what discussion is all about.
Jack : )
*
Interesting idea putting switches to the dishwasher and garbage disposal. (Doesn't the garbage disposal already have a switch?). I'm one of the foolhardy who has changed light fixtures without turning off the circuit breaker. There's no power to the light, so long as the switch is off, right? Well, I ran into one that had the switch on the end of the run after the light, and got a reminder of how dumb I really can be. Since I assume a dishwasher with a switch "could" be wired the same way, I don't think I would take the chance and would use the breaker anyway.
*
I have installed both the dishwasher and disposal using a cord and plug instead of hard wire. That way the appliance can be unplugged instead of searching for the beaker. Of course with the cost of boxes, receptacles, cords and plugs I can see why this wouldn't catch on in tract housing. Why are cheap attachment plugs so hard to find? It is cheaper to buy an extension cord and cut off the triple tap if you need to rewire a lamp. Even a short 16/3 extension cord from say Home Depot is much cheaper than 10 feet of 16/3 loose and it comes with a plug attached!
Frank
*
Being new on Break I was reading through all the various items and this is a great source of info and a way to give others some good advice. The twisting of wire joints brought up a week or two ago needs to be added to. The one reason you twist wires is because of the wire "slipping out" of the supposedly no need to twist wirenut. TWIST, TWIST, TWIST those wires because as a serivce electrician the main reason I survive without getting hurt while on a service call is because they are twisted. Nothing is worse than opening up a J-BOX in a crawl space that is about 3ft high and the sweat is pouring off of you and your flashlight works sporadically and when you remove the wirenut the guy before you used a UL approved no twist wire nut and the wires (which are hot, maybe and maybe not) spring back at you. Someone tell me which way to jump because there is no room to do it. If you guys wire anything, wire it as if you have to be the one to return on a service call even if it is 20 years from now. Call a cop because I,m going to ALWAYS twist my wires together and so should everyone.
*amen amen-as with all things-there is no substitute for excellence- and for those of us who get paid or charge by the hour, excellence takes longer,satisfies more, tastes great and is less filling!!
*As I have said on other posts regarding, data, phone, tv, video etc-the best way to cover yourself for the next technology upgrade, whether it be fiber, cat5,6,etc, rg-59,6 or whatever-cover yourself with CONDUIT HOME RUN and years down the road someone or even yourself will kiss your butt for being so smarty.
*
Intuitively, it seems like the best use of sub-panels is for multi-story buildings like three and four story row houses in older buildings and stuff. Then the between floors run just has to be one run of sufficient size to feed the sub-panel, and you aren't left guessing where the power comes up.
*Back to subpanels:I thought about it some more and realized a subpanel would solve my problem. As I've added circuits, the neutral/grounding bus in the 150-amp main panel has become hopelessly overloaded & I've run out of breaker slots. A subpanel will let me consolidate the kitchen circuits -- in the basement beneath it, there's no wall space in the kitchen! -- save some wire, save some energy, etc. The Sq.-D 6/12-breaker panel with a door cost $25, the 6/3 wire another $25. Much easier than adding an extra grounding bus to the already overcrowded panel. We already have a 50-amp 2-pole breaker from the electric stove we disposed of (went to gas).So my Q: why not routinely use subpanels in even a modest home? I'm thinking of adding one more when I fix up the 2d floor. Only one (thick) wire to pull (or later locate), logical organization of circuits, slightly greater cost (maybe $100 net), less voltage drop, the greater efficiency of a 240V run, easy expansion... or am I missing something? Maybe this is just one of those wonky things homeowners comfortable with electricity have time to do.
*It can be confusing when you have to locate a problem circuit in several different usually mislabeled panels.
*I agree that untwisted connections are weak and are more prone to problems, but I think we're getting confused here as to how twisting is accomplished. I re-iterate that, properly installed, a wirenut will form a twisted connection without pre-twisting. This is not the same as an untwisted connection which seems to be what most of you are talking about. Pretwisting is no guarantee that the connection is good. I've seen my share of twisted connections in which the stripped section of some conductors is too short and has slipped backed onto the un-stripped section of the bundle, and the whole twist is marked up with imprints of the linesman's pliers used to make it. I've also had to make repairs on wires that were twisted hard enough that conductors broke where they had been nicked while being stripped.My point is that good connections are made carefully, and experience shows, regardless of the method used.
*
Ed... I do'nt use the pre-twisted type wirenut you use and I did'nt realize that the wirenut twists the wire. Does it maintain that twist after it is removed or do the wire do as everyone I've ever taken off, just spring back in usually the wrong direction? I believe a "20 year" electrician would have the experience to do the job the way he believes it to be done and I cannot dispute you. You are right when you say that if done right no matter how you do it the job will be safe, I just cannot get into those type wirenuts so I won't misuse the directions I just won't use the wirenuts. You twist yours on safely (which I believe you do) and I'll pretwist mine and we'll keep both manufacturers happy.
*I think load balancing could be another problem. You've got sub-panels everywhere and it makes it difficult to balance the load. Sub-panels for the pool, heat pumps, A.C., docks etc are ok because most of the circuits are 240 and you do'nt have to worry about load balancing (and ALL those sub-panels in the same house are not unrealistic with todays monster houses).
*
Yes, the whole point here is to make things simpler. The problem with too few circuits is that you have to lump together things in a way that doesn't make sense. Right now there is a rat's nest in the ceiling that is difficult to pick through, and as I mentioned the neutral/ground bar is past full with the various NM cables.
I have load balancing in mind too, but even if all the load were on one leg the system would perform no worse than multiple runs of 12-2, right? The more the load is balanced the more efficiency gains you get as the neutral current drops to zero. Or I'm mistaken.
Q: Say you have 50amp 240v to the panel, master 2-pole 50-amp breaker at the source (or should I say 2 50-amp breakers connected). What should the subpanel breakers on each leg add up to? 50 amps? more? how much more?
*Andrew:In main breaker panels, usually the smaller breakers add up way past the value of the main. In a typical 200 amp panel, there are 20 pole spaces per line, total of 40 or 42. Each line can only carry 200 amps before the main breaker trips, but even if you only put a 20 amp breaker in each pole space, the 20 breakers on one pole add to 400 amps. Using this logic, you could put 100 amps of breakers on each pole of your sub panel. So if you know you will load the breakers heavily, do not go much past total of 50 amps per pole. If it is typical intermittently loaded circuits, you may add past 50 amps worth of breakers. Add the total amps of one pole in your current 150 amp panel and you will probably be way past 150 amps. Remember, the poles jump every other breaker space: all odds =one pole, all evens=other pole, usually.When installing sub panels, lable the main panel with the info of where the subpanel is for future reference. Lableing breakers is part of code now.Frank
*Pretty much what I figured... Labeling breakers, what a concept. They had to put this in the code for anyone to notice?Frank, & other electrical folks, do you put much emphasis on neatness in your installations? Doesn't the code technically requires this? E.g., the appearance of exposed wire runs in the basement, logic of circuit grouping, etc. Usually the basements I see look like it was wired by a spider.
*Andrew,I don't know any electricians that aren't the neatest and most orderly humans on the planet....Or if I did I would lose track of them in a hurry....I and any full time electricians I work with, get a "natural buzz" from laying wire perfectly straight and orderly...No spiders on my sites,J
*Frank,Square-D QO Load Centers use perhaps a different numbering system. The legs do indeed jump breaker spaces, however, the breakers are numbered odd on the left side and even on the right side. So every other odd breaker is a different leg, and every other even breaker also.On stranded connections to romex. I have started buying the cheap, small hard plastic wire nuts that you usually see in automotive stores. They grab the solid wire good, but don't ball up the stranded wire. Never paid attention to the brand name, but they always work.What are your favorite brands of wire nuts? I always use 3M Scotchlok because they are very compact. However, they wont cap a single stripped 14 ga strand very well, and I am unaware of a power driver for them. Who makes a good nut that can be power driven.I always twist the wires before the nut. Unless I am adding a new circuit to a hot bunch. Then I just hold it in good and go up a nut size.Why do manufacturers even include those cheap white nuts in the fixtures? They will only work with two pieces of stranded wire, not one stranded, one solid. What a waste - they go right in the trash.-Rob
*
I understand what you are talking about with the "rats nest" panels. I agree with you that a sup-panel is the way to go to clean it up and to add circuitry to an already overloaded main panel. I just did'nt want anyone to think it should be a way of life and yes the code does state that work must be done in a "neat and workmanlike manner" which includes everything from running wire to dressing up panels. As for the matter of adding up your amperages it is wise to know that you will never use all your breakers to the max EVER. The code gives you the guide lines to determine the size of your service and this includes "derating" so because you have 10 - 20amp breakers does'nt mean you are using 200 amps all the time. If you run a sub-panel it should be rated at 100amps or more depending, you cannot buy a panel with a rating less than 100amps. Load balancing is easy, just balance the sub-panel the best you can then the main panel next. Yes you do want the neutral load to be as close to zero as possible but if you do'nt get it right there do'nt worry alot about it.
*
Check out the March issue of "CEE News" there's a neat picture of a nightmare panel on page 30. Subfeed to garage spliced with wire nuts & tape hanging out in the open! NICE!
-Rob
*I noticed that the label on the Square-D subpanel I just put in had odd and even slots in separate columns. So one column showed load on one leg, same for the other. Clever.
*cee stands for???J
*CEE News is a magazine for electrical contractors. Geared towards industrial, but plenty of info and good reading for commercial/residential as well.Contractors Electrical Equipment News.E-mail me with your snail mail address and I'll mail you a complimentary subscription card.-Rob
*Thanks,J
*Dave L.Another source of Cat 5, Coax and other comm. supplies that I have found is a company called Anixter. I just recently bought a bunch of materials to wire my house with, prices about half of what my local HD was asking, and for better materials to boot.Lucent 6-wire mod jack, cat 5 3.49Lucent Coax coupler 2.57Quadplex face plate 1.46Siemons Cat-5 cross connect block 5.75You can call them and ask for their "Structured Cabling Catalog", it has all the communication materials that you would probably ever want. I don't have a 1-800 number handy, but I can dig one up if you want.I get all of my cable at a local electronics supply store that caters to the pocket protector crowd. Paid 83.00/1000ft my local HD wanted 129.00.Hope this is info. that someone can use.
*
I like to have a subpanel near the kitchen. This reduces the number of wires being pulled to this area from several to one. I think it organises circuits for the homeowner as well.
Jack : )
*No new topic, Jack, this could go on forever!
*andrew,If I called this topic DIY Homebuilding, would you then add positive relative info?Please all, this is a topic discussed heavily in less relative space so lets at least get through the first dozen posts with a shread of thread relativity.OK, on with the show,Jack : )
*I hope you all consider this "electrical" and not "electronic" but what's the current, forward looking, advice on non-power wiring in a home? I put in a new telephone jack at Christmas with a promise to my wife to do the rest of the wiring "real soon now" and promptly got distracted by the possibilities.So, my present thinking is to set up a backboard in the basement with a (1) cat 5, 2 - telephone lines, and one coax to each room. (Been looking at the Leviton catalog and they have a modular-duplex like device that will accept 4 receptacles.) At the backboard I'd assemble a patch panel of sorts with the telco lines, cable (maybe someday since I refuse to have a tv in the house), and - when I add a second computer - a small ethernet hub.Comments?
*My house is overkill (by today's standards), but I had massive amounts of wire, so...I almost think that two Cat-5's should be the minimum to each room. Can be used for IR sensor, temp sensors, phone, security, intercom, and a whole lot of other useless peripherals. I ran two to most rooms, and four cat-5's to/from the rooms that I plan on possibly networking PC's. I had the extra wire on the spool, so...why not!All rooms have two RG6 coax video cables. One is for (someday) video distribution from a central source to TV's in rooms. Right now we have one TV on display, the other boxed up in the attic. I only get ABC so we don't watch much. The other is currently unused but could be used to distribute data from a video source in any room (possibly VCR/DVD/outside security camera) to a TV or monitor in any other room that is tuned to the proper channel.12 gauge speaker cable, all rooms.Thermostat cable (controls the loops for radiant floor in each room).Some of the wiring is from new construction. Later, when adding whole-house wainscoting I attacked it from the "what could I possibly ever want or need" angle. It was my last chance to easily hide wire. I'd rather it go unused then to someday have to open a wall up and go fishing.
*I hate to admit being part of the weenie brigade, but i will be running two Cat 5 cables, one for Ethernet and the other for 2 phone lines, the remainder of the wires for God knows what. Plus a cable for TV to some rooms, maybe two if I go nuts (one for outside cable, another for inside like the VCR). (Mongo failed to mention whether he'd used the twin shield or quad shield, the latter being the "high tech.") Bill, with cable modems coming soon, the cable will be useful even if you don't need TV. All wires will "home run" to a punchdown block in the basement -- if I can find somewhere without AC nearby!We have two 100Base-T Ethernet Macs that communicate just fine with the cable I jury-rigged -- you don't need a hub for 2 machines, just a crossover cable. The "fast Ethernet" -- fast, fast, fast -- outperforms the hard drive, so for most things there is little perceptible change in performance. I'll add jacks around the house so that the iMac can be dragged around and still access the latest updated info on the original machine (Quicken, etc.).Good time for a Macintosh plug. Creating the network was ridiculously easy, almost anticlimactic.Visit Smarthome and HomeTech for more than you need to know. I'm not really sold on the "home automation" stuff at this point, but maybe if I run out of projects... (ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha)
*OK guys here it is..now this stuff is what I do every day, not wiring house per se as I don't do construction except for my self any more.You can talk about cat5, enhanced, cat 6,fiber, tv, phone, coax and blah blah but if you truly want to be prepared for future changes, as this industry is changing rapidly, you must home run to central com closet wherever it may be and you should run with conduit at least to an area you can get to the wiring like a basement, crawl space attic etc. that way future changes are easy.For now a cat 5 or two, phone, RG6 100% shielded coax to be compatible with cable systems, IE non radiating or leaky. Cable systems are under tight regulations about leakage of signal that could interfere with other services, especially aircraft.There are lots of good connection systems out there. I use Siemon and think it is excellent but the biggest factor is workmanship. In the back of the Siemon catalog it shows how to install and terminate all these things. And repeate after me..document and label, document and label!
*Jack, it's not clear to me where you wish to go with this thread (just pros and cons?), so I'll just warn against the code vioaltion so prominetly displayed in this month's (Mar) issue of FH, in the laundry room remodel article. Specificly, where a panel is shown with a counter top under it. One can only hope that the author lives in an area that has amended the code in favor of this placement, but I think that would be unusual.
*Didn't mean to fail...but after re-posting my previously dumped/deleted (with good reason)mega-verbose-pot-of-coffee-required-so-you-don't-snooze on the other thread post, I tried to ease up on the verbage.Anyhow, yes, the RG6 I used is quad-shield. It was a bit more expensive, $200 vs $130 per 1000'. All are home-run.If you haven't installed yet, there is a video/data/speaker cable that has two RG6 quad cables, two pair 14 ga speaker cable, and two cat 5 cable bundled into one package. It prices out at $1.40 per foot.Another has just the video/data (no 14 ga) bundled and that's about $.90 per foot.
*I never doubted you, Mongo. Just needling you. :)
*Golly, I didn't even mention fiber optic cable, you can get that by itself or bundled with the other stuff.I am approaching this like buying a computer -- buy only what you need and is at a reasonable price. Whatever you get will quickly be outmoded. So I've been thinking about conduit, as George suggests, figuring I'll figure out my needs when I figure 'em out, instead of trying to predict them. Cat 5 seems like a good bet because I'll always have uses for low-voltage twisted-pair (like an "I'm done" light for the dryer, instead of that blasted warehouse buzzer -- how do you kill that %&*^! thing anyway?).Realistically, all I need wiring for is electricity and telephone! The rest is toys. (And I wish the TV would go away, personally, but my toddler and spouse would not be pleased.)Reinstalling the kitchen is probably a greater priority at the moment.
*JT,Good post....looking for AC wiring chatter...questions...debate...my way verses other way yak.Panel location do s and don'ts is a real big topic....not hidden in the back of closets...not where you might fall down a set of stairs in the dark...and moreThanks for the post,Jack : )
*... over the countertop is wrong because?? Risk of shock?
*Andrew, The code requires a 30" wide x 36" deep x 6 1/2' high clear access area in front of the panel.
*Ah ha. But this discriminates against the 7' ex-NBA homeowner.I wish they'd stop putting the darn things in basements -- every big storm in Chicago, someone would get killed in their FLOODED basement trying to reset a breaker so they could watch TV.
*There are always regional concerns and it's not wrong to build with the rich ex-NBA client in mind.....jack : )
*Just what I've suspected all along...TV viewing can be hazardous to your health...Panel location is important. Regardless of its location, the pathway to it can be easily illuminated by battery powered lights that auto-on when AC current is lost. It's not an expensive addition. For a typical basement location, usually one light is required for the stairs and one light by the panel. On the flip side, very rarely can the homeowner do anything when whole-house electrical failure occurs. Except eat ice cream before it melts in the freezer and wait for the utility company to do their thing. It's nice to put the backup lighting near all stairways.Jack, your idea of a subpanel for the kitchen is interesting, as I typically run 6-8 circuits minimum for a kitchen. I've never run a cost comparison. Being extremely generous and saying 500 extra feet of 12 ga to get those circuits from a single box, that 500' run $60-$75 in materials for a mix of 12-2 and 12-3 and $40 or so for heavier wire for a long run to the electric oven/range. It's costing me $100-$115? How does that compare to the cost of wire from the main to sub-panel, the cost of the smaller panel box itself, and the cost of the breaker in the main box and main breaker in the sub box. Are your kitchen boxes accessible from the kitchen or are they in the basement? Certainly the house design dictates the length of run, but I'm looking for one of those evil, near-impossible "generic" comparisons. Thanks
*When my wife and I were owner/builders a decade ago I tried to stick in most of the wiring I thought I would need including phone & coax to each room, basic wiring for a security system, some speaker wiring and the plumbing for a vac system. The vac and security systems have never been installed and the coax has too much leakage for satelite TV. We are now planning a summer cottage and again I'm trying to look in the crystal ball for future needs. I have been thinking about running 1" electrical conduit from the basement to every room (as several of you suggested) but am a little concerned about crosstalk with several wires in the same tube (guess they better be shielded). Of course I will in addition run phone & tv coax to all locations (home runs - no daisy chaining). I have no desire for a "smart house" but want to be able to add things in the future without tearing out drywall. By the way, I've considered using the dormant vac tubing in my current house for the same purpose.
*... I just pictured myself trying to rewire the over-the-counter box and it wasn't pretty. A sensible rule.I just read, and of course forgot, the subtleties of wiring a subpanel. Something about needing a 4-wire feed, though I don't remember why. I don't immediately see why you'd need to bring both phases over...
*GeezAnd I thought I was being cutting edge having not only a computer with CAD but a fax and Email too. You guys really know how to bring a guy down. . . CAT 5?RG 6? I've got 1 CAT now, the other ran away. . . does that count???Winin' in Ontario!PatrickWhy is it that when I reply to a particular post it now gets shunted to the bottom where it doesn't make a connection? Another improvement SEAN???
*Patrick, do you have Ethernet? CD-ROM? V.90 modem? Laser printer? Color inkjet? Magneto-optical? Infrared? Just giving you a hard time -- I've only picked this stuff up recently (I was a latecomer to the Internet too).We have CAT 1 and CAT 2 ourselves. CAT 1 likes to perch on top of the iMac and swat at the screen.Cat 5 is inexpensive -- 19¢ a foot at HD -- and is a big improvement over, say, conventional phone wiring or even Cat 3. The cable is unshielded, but the wire pairs are tightly twisted to exclude interference. I plan to replace all of the phone wires with Cat 5 (maybe the line will get clearer and my Internet connections will drop less often) and leave the extra two pairs of wires in the cable for some ingenious idea that I haven't had and likely won't. Except for my "I'm done" dryer light.
*load balancing
*Of minor interest, I believe each twisted pair is twisted at different intervals or frequencies. Also, I understand that bending radiuses are important to cat 5. I don't imagine it would make much difference using it for a telephone or doorbell, however :)
*Jack, Just a few more comments on your topic....It's getting to be rather common to run out of spaces in a 40 space box, so I'm seeing more subpanels. Generally subpanels are used either to add spaces or provide close access to breakers where they must be shut off frequently for servicing equipment etc.Now I might ask...What size subpanel would you put in a kitchen? If you have an all electric kitchen with a range and oven and all of the other high wattage appliances we use now days, a common 60 amp panel is probably too small. The next step up would be a small 100 amp. Now you're getting into some sizeable expense, so it may not be cost effective as far as the wiring but may free up some space in your main box for other purposes. Andrew asked about the 4 wire circuit to feed the subpanel. This is necessary because the neutral bus and wires at the subpanel must be isolated from the bare grounding wires,bar, and cabinet. This requires a 4 wire feed consisting of 2 hots, a neutral and an equipment grounding wire coming from the main panel.There was some discussion on the other post about why you would pigtail wires together instead of just using the screws on the receptacles to connect the pass-through wires. The reason is that it makes a much more secure and troublefree connection than using the screws on the receptacle. (Especially a cheap receptacle) I can't tell you how many times I have gone into a home and found poor screw connections causing dead receptacles down the line from a bad connection.Anyway, just a few more thoughts for the topic!
*G4 wire subpanel feed is correct....I worded my answer to andrews.I use subpanels on 3000sqft + monster homes. This saves the labor and structural damage of drilling a "million" holes and eliminates at least one 1000' real of 12-2 being bought, cut, pulled, kept track of, etc.The more people explain "no cut" wiring the more I find it adds nothing. So if using the "no cut" method and one doesn't tighten screw, you're still "screwed" at that outlet! And how does one fold a piece of romex in half, stuff it into a box hole, and carefully cut it all apart to make this magic connection? Time saver?Look. I don't build seismic walls because their stronger.....I don't do "no cut"....oh I might not "tighten the screw" methodology.....and I do like subpanels since the last 6000sq/ft monster house made it obviously a better choice. I don't just include kitchen circuits, but closer to half the circuits. And changing your wiring methods because of "cheap" receptacles? Wow!...Just use quality receptacles.I like streamlined labor, and quality materials assembled with the end user in mind. I am also trying to "reign in" my own desire to overbuild everything.Pigtailing three plus romex in a box, screwing the rest,Jack : )
*Jack, Try this the next time you are wiring a string of receptacles....Make up a bunch of 8" lengths of black and white wire. Strip both ends about 3/4" and curl one end to go around a receptacle screw.( You can use #14 on most receptacles in the house). Attach the black and white wire to the receptacle while sitting at a nice comfortable workbench. Put all the assembled receptacles in a drywall bucket or box and take them with you and start hooking them up. Buzz those little leads on to the wires in the box with a power wirenut driver and I guarantee you will not only be faster at installing them, but will save your knees and make a much better connection.
*I'll toss this out...My inspector has been hinting that some regulatory agencies are pushing for 12 ga as the minimum wire size for residential. He showed me a few trade papers he's received on the subject.Anyone else hear a who?
*G,Yes, somebody is finally making sense to me......Now I know why I started hanging out with you boys and putting up withJoe's Barbecue PIT , and The "whydoes he quote him?" skitsophrenic.I don't even have to try that idea...its been officially adopted; no more14 wire, 15 amp breakers, and oh so easy.Power wirenut drivers?.....Do you make your own?....I love tools and havenever seen that one.Anymore great ideas lurking in the shadows of your brain?Thanks G, You're right up there with blue, devilthat he is!Jack's....a Happy Boy : )