I am new to the forum, but I want to share a reflection on respect. I had posted a simple question about a siding detail the other day and many of the responses had comments like “….your architects are idiots” Well, I shared them with my architects and it really hurt them. They are good people and good architects. In over 25 yrs of building, I had never had as complete a set of drawings nor as much respect from a firm.
If we assume that ideally, everyone involved in a project wants the results to be the best they can be, then we need respect and support all around. None of us is perfect and we should all try to foster an environment where we can all freely exchange ideas without being called names or derided. Sure, there are jerks out there who make it hard to team with, but if we act like jerks and initiate the disrespect, then how can we expect to have any come back? Arrogance begets arrogance. Life is too short to give each other hard times and building well is difficult enough!
Thanks for letting me get that out. I know our best work comes out when good people come together and make the whole better than the pieces. At the end of the day, we all want to feel good about what we have done.
Replies
Would a group hug help ya there buddy?
Ok..lets all gather round the potporiee fountain and give each other a back rub...breathe deep, let it go..theeeeeerrre isn't that NICE?
What Buck would say.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Welcome to the forum.
When you ask for opinions on BT, you're gonna get 'em. You're not going to only get opinions that you want to hear.
Most of the people here are pretty opinionated. Some are right, some aren't. Some are really nice guys, and some are jerks. Just like the mix of people you'll run across in real life.
I hope you'll hang around. But if you want to participate, you're gonna have to be a little thick skinned.
nice people hang here?"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
"nice people hang here?"
I think we run the full range here - From nice guys to jerks.
Q: Why do men name their penises?
A: Because they want to be on a first-name basis with the person who makes all their decisions.
I am a nice guy that sounds like a jerk because I don't talk so good. Don't choose the right words like politicians.
Nice people hang here?
Yeah, you'll notice them moaning for water occassionally and sometimes can hear the clink of the chains and manacles.
Well, I shared them with my architects and it really hurt them.
So... You were forced to "share them" ???
You big meanie !!!
Are we there yet ?
Most of us here sit down to shoot the sh*t with likeminded professionals on our down time. We all have worked for idiot architects and some still do. When we are specced to install something that is wrong, poor practice or even illegal if not borderline most of us speak up. Often we get treated as sensible professionals but often enough we basically get the "well I have a degree treatment". We make them sign off on whatever the problem is, wait it for it to fail then charge to do it the right way the second time. Webster's gives me "Idiotic: showing complete lack of thought or common sense"
This is where we vent, I'm sure if you started an "Idiot Architect" thread you'd have a million posts. It may even be around here already. Mitered siding corners is poor practice, takes a long time to make look right and almost guarranteed to fail. In five years the nice tight corners will be filled with tubes of caulk and look shabby. Was it done in the past? Yes. Was it found to be poor tradesmanship? Yes, time and time again. Sure it won't pull the house down but it's repeating the mistakes of the past.
Is the term an exxageration? Sure it is. Is it a needling remark the receiver may not find funny and is borderline jouvenile? You betcha. You should hear jobsite humor if you find "idiot" so disrespectful, you'd be outraged and quit by the end of the week. These forums are pretty tame compared to what we hear and say throughout the day. As such I stand by my remarks...
Well said, I understand. I still wonder why it has to be "us and them" though. Why can't we try to reach understanding with the architects? I always thought we woud have better architects if they had to build periodically, but isn't there another side to that? I am just trying to say that once respect leaves any relationship, it is doomed to deteriorate and fail. I know job site humor and it is easy pickings.
I wonder what the dynamic was back a hundred years ago when the Greene Bros. were building their bungalows in Pasadena? They were architects who trained first in vocational trade school before they trained as architects. Charles, particularly, was a skilled craftsman as well as an inspired architect. I would love to know more about their crews, but it sure looks like great crafts people were drawn to work on their projects and their architecture is outstanding partly because the craftsmanship and attention to detail is great. That takes the whole team. It is easy to take shots at each other, but I don't see great work coming from that. That isn't where I want to be...
Earlier jesting aside, ok. You are, actually, in the right in my mind.
Everyone on the same wavelength is something I fight for all the time and rarely get, but the occasions where it really happens, wow. The jobs where I get to be in charge (I sub sometimes as well) I have a pow-wow before work starts. Everyone meets, has their chance to say basically ok, I see something silly here, what if . . . and we all get to see what one persons task does or doesn't do for the next guy. This little meet I usually walk away from feeling like I just saved the client a couple thousand.
And in my statistically non-representative experience of one job dealing with an architect, I have to say, not bad. Certainly the most thorough set of prints I ever saw. We found a way to make good communications across the 2000 miles between job and architect. They did a very good job of drawing what they wanted. If they busted anywhere, it was in the ability to relay just how important some details were to all of the trades. And it was the trades bust to run with (and I don't know about elsewhere, but very very typical here) what is normal and a cursory glance at the prints vs. what is drawn. That did put everyone in the precarious position of solving hundreds of seemingly small "as framed" vs. "as drawn" issues.
And not just the framers. Nobody expected ceiling trim. We had lights where trim was supposed to go, same with speakers. Some moved, some trim moved to accomodate. HVAC installers I think never saw the prints. They nailed every single opening right in the middle of where something else was supposed to go. No easy task.
And the trim - typical here for drawings seriously is a floorplan. Trim gets delivered and for the most part it's obvious what the base and case is. Built ins, stairs, mantles, that gets a little communication. But this house, there were several points where everything else more or less hinged from. The elevation of the head of this door must line with the head on this window must line with this band which extends into the dining room which must line with the beam that floats across the room from which the chandelier hangs . . . and that wasn't something which was immediately obvious, despite pages and pages of interior elevation drawings which were just that. Drawings. No elevations or measurements given. And some guy standing at the saw (me) with the prints on a table trying to figure out in 1/4 scale with a ruler if that's supposed to be 16 or 17 inches from the wall. Great communications notwithstanding, dimensions struck me as something important enough to have been included.
In defense of the other poster though, he does have a point. Architects do apparently have some building science knowlege, but I don't get the idea that it's extensive. They look at the world as differently from the tradesman as a lawyer does. That's not an assessment of bad or good. It's just a different set of glasses. Design wins all battles. Or that's my impression. The idea of having a living room or some other feature with this big clear span, thats the goal. Its the contractor that says well ok you could do that if we re-engineered the entire roof system, or we need to have a beam. Exposed. You get the idea. Apply it wherever. With the mitered corners, it might have been nothing more than a desire for a specific look, not fully understanding the other factors which played a role in whether or not that was a good call for that house, that environment, that location. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I still wonder why it has to be "us and them" though. Why can't we try to reach understanding with the architects? I always thought we woud have better architects if they had to build periodically, but isn't there another side to that? I am just trying to say that once respect leaves any relationship, it is doomed to deteriorate and fail.
One of the earlier things I had to learn, as a woodworker, was how to politely tell an archy he didn't know his azz from a hole in the ground and had designed exploding furniture. When presented with a faulty design, there aren't many good choices. The guy doing the work will always be blamed, even if the design is faulty.
Which is not a blanket condemnation, clearly there are competent designers. Those are the ones who get respect. They earned it.
I'm currently working with the worst blueprints I've ever seen. From an engineering firm. The GC has to make the decisions 'cause the plans don't work and I refuse to make the call. The engineering folks told the GC that the guy responsible for the drawings no longer works there. But it was his boss, the owner, who put his stamp on them. Then they said we didn't really have to follow the plans exactly.... I lobbied for better plans, but that didn't go anywhere. For better or worse, footings poured today. Forming walls tomorrow. It's gonna get real nasty when we try to figure out how to get the curbs for the parking area right. Major drainage issues. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've been hanging around this board for a couple years now, and there have been plenty of shots taken at architects, and engineers as well...as a professional engineer myself, I don't let it get to me. For the most part, I think it's just one of those things some people do; it isn't that much different than how people complain about their boss or their wife to their buddies, or how Chevy truck guys like to slam Ford truck guys.
Sure, there are plenty of bum archies and engineers out there - I know some of them personally - but I'd like to think the majority of us are knowledgeable about our trade and are good people to work with. I know that I learn a lot from the contractors I work with, and hopefully they learn things from me, too.
Besides me, I know there are a number of other engineers and architects who frequent this board, and I don't remember any them getting too offended by what they've read here.
I've been through four building trades thus far, painter, roofer, framer, and now a trimmer. Believe me, I have no allusions about whats said about me when I'm in any of those trades. As a commercial trimmer, we are often the biggest PIA on site. Painter wants to paint the 100+doors flat/one-coat the three miles of trim. That's fine, they get hung in four days. Rock/finishers hate us cause we're always up their hindend eyeballing all their work. Hey Mr Electrician, you know those rooms you roughed in? Yeah well, sorry but the outlets are halfway in the countertops. I'm sorry MR. Plumber, that one fixture hook-up your helper boned ruined the base cabinet so now the countertop has to come up and the cabinet removed because they were designed to be fastened to each backscrewed in the pilasters. We do try to play nicey nice, we try to think ahead and mention such things as soon as we see them prior to an expensive redo but I'm glad I don't know Spanish or eat lunch with the electricians my ears are ringing so much. And a Hungarian painter, fresh from the old country, took to calling my partner and I Irish Terrorists. Unfortunately a good part of these issues fall back onto the drawings and conflicting/missing details. Without falling into "us vs. them" too badly everybody takes shots at each other over goofs, snafus or major screw-ups. I can take it (an interesting, unusual and insightful insult is always remembered. We still crack up about the Irish Terrorist thing) and I can dish it. It's all part of "working together as a coordinated and informed team of professionals striving for the best craftsmanship possible". Excuse me, I have to wash my mouth out after that one...
It is easy to take shots at each other, but I don't see great work coming from that. That isn't where I want to be...
Thank you
Why can't we try to reach understanding with the architects?
It's not just that WE have to reach an understanding with Architects, It has to work both ways. They have to also reach an understanding with us when we tell them that something they drew just doesn't work.
I'm a Framing contractor and I can tell you plenty of stories over the years that the roof lines wont work or they have a room with three different pitches on it with the same plate height and same overhangs and also cathedral ceilings. It can be framed but not as easy as they think. When they here the framing price and what we have to do to get it to look right so the ceilings all line up, they just shouldn't complain because some of the Architects tell the homeowner what the prices of the subs should be and they're way off.
I don't have any problems with Architects as long as when I ask them a question about something they are willing to work it out and not just have an attitude as if they are right and that's it. If we all work together it will work out on the job. The problems on new home framing are easier to fix then the problems on adding to existing homes.
I had an Architect on one job that drew something and I had asked him to come to the job to go over the roof line and when he got there I gave him my suggestion and he said that it was a great idea and he didn't even think of that. I just said to him , that's alright because I frame every day and being that I'm on the field it gives you a better perspective of what that particular house is all about and it's easier to figure it out in the field sometimes than to draw it.
He told me that the framing was his favorite part of the house. I said to him that I think that Architects should work on a framing crew when they're young and just starting out even if it was just on the weekends just to get a feel of what it takes to frame because I think it would be easier for them to visualize a house when they design and draw it. He told me that his brother-in-law is a framer and he does work with him when he gets a chance.
The bottom line is that Architects aren't always right and GC's and Sub-Contractors aren't always right. We all make mistakes and everyone should leave the Attitudes at home and admit if you made a mistake and then we can fix it.
I could care less if an Architect draws 20 different roof pitches on a house because I will charge for it and if the homeowner or builder doesn't like my price I will walk away and then come back and fix it because he got some Hack Framer to come it at a lower price and screw it all up. I'll charge for it and get paid to do it.
Joe Carola
Framer Joe,
Great response. Leave the Attitude at the door. We all bring something to the table. Generally we bring some realistic perspective to what they are trying to do, and if they are smart, they listen. Sometimes we might not try for as much if they didn't try to imagine it though.
The great designers out there now are combining the practical with refinement, considering every wall, every space. A good public example of a good architect is Sarah Susanka, (the architect who wrote the series of books on the not so big house) whose houses are well thought out and don't seem to have the extra crap thrown in. There is a lot of effort to make trim line up (all windows and door headers) and very livable spaces. Houses like this need a great builder to pull it off but the architect earns their way also.
"I think that Architects should work on a framing crew when they're young and just starting out even if it was just on the weekends just to get a feel of what it takes to frame because I think it would be easier for them to visualize a house when they design and draw it."Speaking as an architect, I couldn't agree more.
I wonder what the dynamic was back a hundred years ago when the Greene Bros. were building their bungalows in Pasadena? They were architects who trained first in vocational trade school before they trained as architects. Charles, particularly, was a skilled craftsman as well as an inspired architect.
An architect trained first in vocational trade school is a thing of the past for the most part. They just don't "have the time". This doesn't mean they can't be good architects. The best ones are flexible and listen to builders' input on their designs and incorporate the builders good suggestions into their specs.
I think the frustration with architects that surfaced in this thread is greatly due to something that I have found which is that on jobs where bad architects provide poor drawings, builder's profits are consistently low. Builders waste a ton of time trying to resolve problems with bad drawings. It is time which is difficult to get reimbursed for. The process of building with an architect is a collaborative one that can be very satisfying, but also very frustrating if the architect is hard headed. (and vice versa)
I just read the mitred corner thread and will agree that a true mitred corner on beveled siding is a bad detail that shouldn't be used. It doesn't make your architect an "idiot", it just means that the builder needs to take a stand and tell the owner and architect the problems with this detail. If the architect insists, then he must sign off and accept any future problems with the design, otherwise the builder won't build it that way.
We have successfully done the lapped corner (previously mentioned) which gives you the same look without a 45 degree mitre. I think it looks fantastic compared to corner boards, it's just that no one wants to pay for the tremendous additional labor involved.
Do you have any idea how many times Frank Lloyd Wright was called an "idiot" ???carpenter in transition
I think one of the problems in construction is that both contractors and architects fake omniscience. We think it makes us look bad when we don't know something. If I find a mistake by an architect I call him or her and discuss and present solutions. I don't go to the client and say the architect is an idiot. And when I make a mistake or an ommission I expect the architect to do the same. An architect is just like any sub that you work with for a long time, they have to be a team player.
Some people however think that to make someone look bad makes them look good.
Corlis, your point is valid. Name calling isn't the reason I came here. It definitely changes the direction of many topics.
The thing that surprises me is that you used such poor judgment in showing the architects the derogatory comments. I think that was unfair to them, and unfair to the poster.
It's unfair to them becuase they don't have a chance to defend their thinking. All they could do when you showed them that was be embarrassed. It's unfair to the poster because often, a flip comment like that is made to make a point and save a thousand strokes of the keyboard. I'm quite sure that most in here would temper their language if they knew the architects were going to read it. Shame on the name callers, but shame on you too for needlessly showing them the comments.
Now, since we are talking about architectual idiots, let me tell you this timely tidbit. Last night, I was studying a set of plans that I'm going to be building for a friend. He is a roofing contractor businessman just starting out in the building business. He's going to spec 12 McMansions and I told him that I'd tighten up his plan, then do his frame on a cost plus, not to exceed basis. So, when I got home last night, I decided to red ink the plan before supper since I had gotten home 2 hours early (rain day). I figured I would easily be done for supper.
Well....six hours later I was done. I found FIFTY ONE FREAKIN' AREAS OF CONCERN!!!!
It just so happens that this popular architect has young blood in there doing a lot of the design work. In fact, the guy that did the final revision on this drawing used to work out in the field as a carpenter for me. He was horrible as a carpenter and it's no surprise that he'd horrible as an architect. We had already sent the plan back because some dimensions were missing and there were numerous point loads unsupported in the floor system. On the final revision he MISSED THE ENTIRE RIGHT SIDE OF THE HOUSE. THE UPPER FLOOR JOIST WOULD LAND ON A PARTITION THAT WAS RIDING ON AIR!!!!
This guy is a freakin' idiot and I don't mind if you tell him! He had a bifold door opening up into a toilet. I suppose you could just open the door the available 8" and reach your arm in there, but I'm positive the McMasionites would eventually figure it out that this is not normal! I'm sure one of their smarter yuppie friends would point out the obvious.
blue
Similar problem. A buddy i am helping has submitted bids to do minor renovations to 5 branch banks. The plans were drawn by a local mid-size architectural firm. The buildings are old and original plans don't exist for all of them.
For one branch, they show that the restrooms will be substantially modified, which was news to the owner, and they show one wall as being normal sheetrock and stud whereas it is actually more than 8" of concrete. Apparentyly it used to be a vault or something.
For all the bids, they are asking for a performance bond. "They" being the archy, not the owner. The owner selected 3 contractors from past experience and asked them to bid. None of the jobs will be over $100k, the smallest is about $20k. The day after the bids were due, the archy advised the owner that all the bids (3 gc's x 5 projects = 15 bids) were rejected as non-responsive ... because of the performance bond that no one included. Some young girl in the archy office read somewhere that a performance bond is a good idea, and she's sticking to it.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Keep it coming FastEddie! Lets make this an architect bashing thread!
blue
then do his frame on a cost plus, not to exceed basis.
Much as I hate to hijack a thread, but I've got to ask about this. Why on earth would a contractor want to do this, seems to me like the worst of both worlds.
You can't ask more than the 'not to exceed' figure, so if unexpected difficulties arise then you are scr*wed, and if on the other hand the job goes really well, and your skill and experience allows you to finish the job quicker and less expensively, then you can't ask for more than the 'cost plus' basis allows.
Tell me this isn't true, and show me where the advantage to you is
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
Well John, after a coupla decades contracting, sometimes it's a tool to pull out of the bag to get a job despite long odds.
Were asking for about $11 sf on this particular house. The competition is asking for about $8. There's about a 10k difference in price and this job is located in a snake pit of activity. The builder needs to stay competitive to stay alive. He is new in the business and is a friend of the friend. He has 12 lots in this particular area and we'd like to think that they will be ours, but not unless we can meet our hourly needs.
That's the background.
Here's why it makes sense. We really don't think we can do the house in less than the 500 hours that we bid it. We think the 500 is solid bid. It was carefully thought out and we have lots of experience on houses just like this. I have no fear of giving back the excess "profits" if the house comes in at 400 hours, because I realistically don't think it will happen. But if it does, I'll be tickled because the house didn't go to 600 hours and wreck our budgeted hourly goals. The builder will be happy because we will have forged a working relationship that we can build on in the upcoming 11 houses.
Lets see what might happen if he saves 400 hours on the first house. Lets assume that the next house comes in on time. The third one goes 30 hours long. Do you think it might be possible that we might get paid for those 30 hours? I do.
I'm not looking to make any "big money" in this game anymore, because there ain't any in it! I know that we are winding the carpentry contracting business down because the long term outlook spells poverty. We are just using it as a cash flow machine till some other things break. Our short term goal is to get through the next winter and this particular builder will be a very good contact in the coming months.
Incidently, we are currently working this exact deal with the builder that we are working for right now. Again, since we understand our needs, and know how to bid the house, we will be just fine. In some ways, we've positioned our selves correctly to maximize our chances at making a profit (the profit is built into the rates) on this particular job (because of changes to and from the contract).
Cost plus, not to exceed: don't automatically dismiss this selling tool.
blue
Good answer, Blue (and Demon), thanks.
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
When I do Cost Plus, not to exceed, I still use change orders if necessary. The idea is to CYA, and still make what you are worth. If I finish faster than I had anticipated, I've made my $$$ and I move on to the next job, and everybody's happy. Although I don't usually use cost plus, it has worked out well in certain situations like opening up older homes, remodeling bathrooms, etc. Make that "not to exceed" number pretty high, and take the time with the homeowner to explain what scenarios you might be anticipating. It gives you a chance to educate the homeowner and helps them realize there is much more to renovating than they've seen on HGTV - and also to trust your experience.
Edited 9/10/2005 8:26 am ET by Demon
The main reason I see for archys getting trashed by every other trade is that it's so hard to justify their existence. A hundred years ago, archys designed, engineered and then contracted entire projects. Since then, general contractors and others have gradually taken over many of their duties, making them obsolete.
Most GC's can design a house that will be appealing to a homeowner and will be efficiently built. A draftsman can CAD it out so the engineer can figure out the structural details. GC brings plans to Building Dept, haggles, gets approval then brings plans to suppliers and subs for material take-offs. GC then supervises construction and is liason to Building Dept.
Seriously, what the heck do architects do for their 7-10%?
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
early06, I generally agree with your sentiments. But, not all gcs are skilled or capable at planning. We just finished a frame that a gc drew up. We ended up with 3500 in extras that he wanted to whine about because of his mistakes and lack of informatioibn on the plan. There was a steady stream of lumber shortages, and a total lack of cohesion and production.
I should have known better than to take that job, but a whole in the schedule that we didn't swayed our thinking. In hindsight, we should have just looked somewhere else.
I don't mind the arch's getting their money, I just want them to earn it.
blue
I'm with you there, blue. If you get a GC that's done a few design/builds in the same area, you can feel fairly confident about how smooth it's going to go. On the other hand, if you get a guy doing his first spec with a bunch of his realtor buddies, run!DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
if you get a guy doing his first spec with a bunch of his realtor buddies, run!
I know what you mean earl! We tore off a roof to add a dormer in a ritzy part of town for one of these. Halfway through the second day, the inspector shows up and asks us where our building permits are. We tell him to ask the builder since we were framing subs.
The builder thought we should pull the permit since we were carpenters! hahahahah, that's a good one!
Middle of winter, huge hole in roof in ritzy part of town....not good.
blue
"what the heck do architects do for their 7-10%?"The good ones earn their money. I am doing my own designs, and I find that it costs roughly 6% of a project cost in design. That is what the cost is, regardless whether it is GC, HO, DIY, or archy designed.some achies whill break out about 6-7% for design and production drawings, and another 6-7% for site management involving selecting and negotiating with buiolders and subs, and dealiong with job flow, working drawings, error correction and cahnges, etc.We recently ( another board i sit on) used an archy team for a semi-commercial project who charged a grand total of 9% for both, and included his transportation. What a deal!My point would be that critical design work should not be approached from a viewpoint of what is the cheapest way to accomplish it. It should be what will give the best plans.A good archy thinks everything through and details it all clearly on the drawings. A poor one simply demonstrates on those ddrawings how inadequare he is.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"The main reason I see for archys getting trashed by every other trade is that it's so hard to justify their existence."You must live in a small world. What about libraries, churches, schools, hospitals, office buildings, restaurants, apartments, senior living centers, museums, prisons, stadiums, fire stations, etc.? The truth is, many architects don't do residential work. A 2500 sf house can take as much time and effort as a 20,000 sf strip mall, but if the fee percentage is the same it makes it harder to justify. Smaller projects don't necessarily mean less work, but usually more headaches. And homes are touchy subjects for clients. A client reacts differently to his house versus his business/church/neighborhood school/etc.. It becomes something personal, lots of handholding and emotions you don't deal with on other projects. Which means more time and less money."A hundred years ago, archys designed, engineered and then contracted entire projects. Since then, general contractors and others have gradually taken over many of their duties, making them obsolete."Obsolete? (ouch . . . seven years of college down the drain, would you like fries with that, sir?) Much of what you said is true to an extent. A lot of it has to do with premanufactured items. A hundred years ago everything was custom . . . windows, doors, cabinets, etc.. And no gyp board, OSB, plywood, etc. to make things easier. Homes have gotten cheaper to make, which means architectural fees become harder to justify. And a hundred years ago, building codes, energy calculations, design styles, historical review boards, liability, etc., were either non-existent or simpler, meaning less demand and expenses on the person doing the drawings."Most GC's can design a house that will be appealing to a homeowner and will be efficiently built."O.K.. No argument. But, that's the architect's job, not the contractor's. Doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it, same way a DIY might be able to do his/her own project as good as a contractor. But in both scenarios, for every good attempt by one, there'll likely be a dozen hack jobs by the others. And the ones who are hacks won't know the difference.Best way to sum up is by a couple analogies. The last time we moved I couldn't understand why the moving fees were so high. Finally bit it and went with one, then saw 3 big guys at the end of a hot day, covered in sweat, tired, dirty, each with an empty gallon of conveniance store juice they had gotten that morning. Worst occupation in the world, and they were worth every penny. Then about 6 months ago, we sold a rental property we owned. Was sick of bad renters, fixing things, etc.. Didn't want to pay a realtor's fee so we tried to sell it ourselves. Ended up with people crawling on the roof, getting stood up constantly, one jerk who basically wanted us to give him the place. Finally got a realtor, somebody who knew the area, and didn't realize how much of a hassle we were going through until he took it over. Then did the paperwork after it sold and made me realize how little I knew about the process in the first place.Sit down and draw a house sometime. Something simple, with a basement, two stories. Site plan, foundation plans, framing plans, elevations, sections, interior elevations, details, plumbing riser diagrams, electrical panel diagrams, specifications, etc.. See how much of your time it takes, then compare it to a set of drawings done by an architect. It starts to add up.
"Most GC's can design a house that will be appealing to a homeowner and will be efficiently built."
O.K.. No argument. But, that's the architect's job, not the contractor's.
Sez who? Is there some kind of divine right to design work that comes with the diploma or something?
Sorry, but that's a bunch of crap. Owning an architect's diploma doesn't make one a good designer. It just makes one an architect. Designing things--and then building them to find out what works and what doesn't--can eventually make one a good designer...if the talent is there to begin with. If it isn't, all the degrees, diplomas, and licenses in the world won't help.
Sit down and draw a house sometime. Something simple, with a basement, two stories. Site plan, foundation plans, framing plans, elevations, sections, interior elevations, details, plumbing riser diagrams, electrical panel diagrams, specifications, etc..
Any time you like. I've designed one 14-building staff village project for a resort area; several custom houses; and innumerable remods ranging from simple kitchens, baths, and basements, to complex second-storey add-ons. I'm working on a cottage conversion (to full-time residence) right now.
And I'm nothing special. There are thousands of small- and medium-size design/build firms. I can think of at least four or five guys right here on BT who do this all the time, and do more of it than I do. I run a pretty small operation.
That statement of yours above about whose job it is to design the building really irks me. It's an elitist argument; a real classist attitude. It's equivalent to saying, "Dumb grunts like GC's and carps shouldn't design buildings. Only WE, the schooled, the annointed, the diploma-ed, should do that."
Sorry, draftguy. I know you weren't trying to be an a$$whole in your post; but the underlying attitude really lit my fuse.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dinosaur: didn't mean to step on any toes. An elitist statement wasn't at all what I was aiming for. And I NEVER would've slammed GC's and carpenters.You're absolutely right, owning an architect's diploma doesn't make one a good designer. And your comments about design/build firms is right on. To anybody graduating from an architectural school who has a real interest in seeing their designs built, that's the direction I'd say they should go. I'm just defending MY profession. You mentioned terms like "elitist," "classist," "the annointed," etc.. This isn't new . . . that stereotype about architects has been around forever. So why is it any better than the stereotype of contractors as "dumb grunts"? My comments were directed more to the drawing part of a project, whether done by you or me. Few things frost me more than when somebody comes by and says "I could've done that" after all the work's done. It doesn't take into account all the planning, all the information, all the sweating out the correct details, dimensions, proportions, and subjective "art" that goes into a building. Like these designs just magically appeared out of thin air, with no thought or effort.If somebody doesn't like it, fine. But it's insulting after everything is done to tell somebody that all their hard work really wasn't that important. Again, whether drawn by you or me.I think we're reading from the same book, but we're just on different pages. Sorry if anything I said was taken as insulting or demeaning.
I think we're reading from the same book, but we're just on different pages.
Yeah, and I felt bad about being so pissed off while I was writing that post, too, but I just couldn't shake it.
I think the reason that elitist attitude is so ancient and entrenched in the architectural profession has to do with both its credentialed status as a 'profession' and where it's taught: you must go to a college or university to get a archie's ticket. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where you can still learn to do it at 'HKU' and then apply to write the exams.
Also, since architecture is often taught at schools with a heavy arts curriculum (it is, after all, an art, not a science), there tends to be a lotta that artsy-fartsy attitude running around on campus to start with. And when you add the glamour and big-money potential of high-end architecture into the mix (as opposed to the classic 'garret-ferret' image of the unbathed, unshorn sculptor drinking cheap wine on the Left Bank), the architectural students learn to pooh-pooh the fine-arts types pretty quick.
But your remarks about hating it when a client looks at your finished work and says, "Oh, I coulda done that!" are on target. Yeah, maybe he could have. But he didn't. And it was his choice not to, too, since there is no legal requirement that I know of that only an architect can 'design' a building. So just tell him to put his mouth where his money is, or shut up....
I know a doc--he's a brain surgeon, in fact--who ran into a well-known novelist at a party one evening. He remarked, "You know, when I retire I'm going to do some writing. I've got this great idea for a novel I've been working on, but I just don't have the time to finish it now." The author looked at him, smiled, and replied, "Yes, I know just what you mean. When I retire, I'm going to do some brain surgery. I've always thought that would be fun...."
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"you must go to a college or university to get a archie's ticket. I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where you can still learn to do it at 'HKU' and then apply to write the exams."and it's getting worse. When I started you could sit for the exams with a 2-year degree and x-amount of years as a draftsman. Then you needed a bachelor's degree. Now in Ohio you need a master's degree (i.e., another $30,000 minimum in student loans, on top of $40,000 for the bachelor's, none of it construction-oriented) and 3 years of IDP training. And the exam is completely unrealistic for an actual project. If the acid test for being an architect is the exam, why all the requirements? Shouldn't anyone passing it be enough? i dunno . . . kind of ironic that FLW, the father of American architecture (& Canadian?) couldn't practice in today's world . . .Edited 9/15/2005 2:12 pm ET by draftguy
Edited 9/15/2005 2:27 pm ET by draftguy
If the acid test for being an architect is the exam, why all the requirements? Shouldn't anyone passing it be enough?
Yes, of course it should. Same with lawyering or doctoring or teachering....
This modern penchant for making university degrees a prerequisite for writing board exams has been practised on all of the other trades commonly recognised as 'professions'. Some bright marketing type in each of them realised one day that reducing the number of practitioners would increase the amount each one could charge.
Of course, the fastest way to reduce the number of practitioners was to require a college or university degree as a prerequisite for sitting the exams. This would also keep out the 'riff-raff' who couldn't afford to pay the tuition, and make the club that much more exclusive. (A lot of this professional elitism has its roots in the racism and economic classism that dominated the 19th century.)
But even so, we human beings have an amazing capacity to let ourselves get reeled in by Officialism, whether in government, education, religion, or even sports. (Is a baseball team 'real' if it doesn't hold a franchise from Major League Baseball, Inc.?) Savvy organisations know the value of appearing to be official organs of their trade; why else is the CEO of the National Hockey League known as the 'Commissioner'? Why else would members of the board of directors of professional orders call themselves Governors? Why else would the head of a school use the title Chancellor?
Because those titles sound more Official and less commercial. Heaven forbid that Da Peeple (god bless their weak little intellects) should ever suspect the Governors of the Order of Architects of Québec are interested in making a profit!!
Anyway, once an organisation looks big and official enough, it has usually accumulated enough social inertia to start dictating who may and may not join the club, and get the government to back it up. And it's another marketing truism that the harder it is to get something, the more most people will be willing to pay for it....
It all boils down to money, as usual.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Are you sure about Frank Loyd Wright being Canadian??? A couple of web bios say he was born in Richland Center, Wisconsin. Then studied a couple of years a Univ. of Wisc in civil engineering before going to Chicago to apprentice as an architect.
Jim H
Sorry, I reread your post and realized you were saying FLW was the father of Canadian architecture as well as American architecture and not saying he was Canadian. I guess I need to read more carefully and not so late at night.
Jim H
was joking a little bit . . . responding to a post from Quebec. Not sure how far north FLW built beyond Wisconsin.
I didn't read his post that way at all. What I hear him saying is a rebuttal to the idea that architects are supurfluous - unessesary baggage. he was pointing out that it does take some thinking and some work to design a house. Previous posts made the impression that someone thinks that because a GC , you, or me, can design a house, that it should be done for free.
I think I pointed out earlier that it still costs money to design, no matter who does it. And a bad designer will cost double - at least.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I didn't read his post that way at all. What I hear him saying is a rebuttal to the idea that architects are supurfluous - unessesary baggage.
Fair enough.
I did have a lot of trouble understanding why I was so danged riled up. I think it was caused by that one zinger where he said that even though a GC could design a house, it wasn't his job, it was the architect's job.
My basic point of view is: my job is to do anything for which someone has contracted to pay me. I get real bent real fast when a third party--especially some overblown, officiallized, credentialling organization--tries to shove its sticky fingers into that private contract and dictate who can hire whom to do what....
I don't usually take things out of context to make a point, and I'm not gonna start now 'cause I think it's a pretty childish way to argue. I'm only trying to point out (as much to myself as to anyone else) why that one remark must have pushed one of my real hot buttons and blinded me to the rest of what he was saying...a lot of which I agree with wholeheartedly.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I think tempers flare pretty easily because everyone here is passionate about what they do. No one would be here otherwise. Which is the way it should be. I'll gladly risk being called an a$$hole by somebody who works hard and knows what they're doing. (of course, the occassional support is good too)wonder what the discussions on the 'Crappy Homebuilding' website are like?
Edited 9/16/2005 5:37 pm ET by draftguy
wonder what the threads on the 'Crappy Homebuilding' website are like?
We'd never know, 'cause the moderator'd be gone, and the ISP for the hosting would be broke, the posters would have pawned their CPUs or been run out of the library for offending the purply-clad librarians . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"We'd never know, 'cause the moderator'd be gone, and the ISP for the hosting would be broke, the posters would have pawned their CPUs or been run out of the library for offending the purply-clad librarians . ."Most likely. Sort of like a utopian society, efficient government, universal health care and a decent lite beer . . . nice to think about, but it'll never happen (probably) . . .
wonder what the discussions on the 'Crappy Homebuilding' website are like?
Oh, man, could we have fun with a thread under that title....
GC: Yo! What da F### RU doin' up there??
Framing sub's Lead: ?? just layin' out these F'ing trusses on the plates. Whadja think I wuz doin'? Pullin' my pudd??
GC: Bullship! Yer just wastin' time, A-hole. Just spread 'em out and nail 'em down. I want this roof on by lunch 'cause the roofers are comin' in a 12:30.
Lead: If they ain't on layout, the sheathing joints'll end up over thin air, Einstein.
GC: So what? Who da f###'s gonna see that? Whaddya think shingles is fer? Besides, if anybody bitches, I just blame everything on the architect. Start nailin', wisea$$.
Lead: Hey, lemme ask ya something: Did yer dentist just buy another Beemer?
GC: ??What??
Lead: I was just wonderin'. He's gotta be one rich mutha, cause you musta eaten one f### of a lotta Cracker Jacks before ya found the box with yer license in it. We're outta here. Pack it up, boys....
(Based on a true story. Honest....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
"wonder what the discussions on the 'Crappy Homebuilding' website are like?"possible topics of discussion . . .tools you broke todaytools you stole todaytools you stole (then broke) today
"wonder what the discussions on the 'Crappy Homebuilding' website are like?"
possible topics of discussion . . .
"Thirty-six new uses for duct tape while framing partitions...."
"How to get one coat of paint to look like three...."
"Vinyl Siding Done Quick"
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I understand getting worked up too - Lemmee tell a storyI had a job to do for a wealthy client. He had hired a team of archies to do the design work. Only one of the three was worth a hoot, he knew it, but they came as a package. To get the good one, he dealt with the team.The blowhard one started right off trying to elbow me out of the job so he could shufle it off to one of his kickbacking cronies. One day he called the job and was arguing with me about everything, right down to what colour the sky was that day.
He asked me one more question and without waiting for my answer, he lauched right into his side of an arguement, having already anticipated what he thought I would answer. Well, I figured he could carry on both sides of the conversation pretty well without me since he didn't want to wait to hear my statement, so I hung up. It was a good two minutes before the phone rang again. I was standing next to it waiting and smiling. I could just picture him carrying on until he came up for air, when he finally realized he was talking into a dead phone.His first statement when I answered again was, "What happened, we got cut off""No, I hung up on you since you didn't care to hear what I had to say""Well, we'll see about this"So that night, the client called me ( Absentee owner) and asked how are things going, etc. BTW, Blowhard called today, was there any problem?I explained, He laughed, and told me the essence of what he had told Blowhard - "Paul knows more about building than you will in another ten years. What's more - I trust him, so if you think that you are going to get him replaced, get this thought into your head - You will be gone down the road long before Paul is. So learn to treat him with respect."We got along fine after that. Didn't always agree, but we worked together and got the job done.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I understand getting worked up too - Lemmee tell a story
I was going to tell you my own similar story...but I already told it to draftguy, LOL. Most of it, anyway....
Here's the rest of it: I pulled my scaffolding and we were outta there in about 45 minutes, leaving that silly dweep bleating into his cell phone. I had a small project that I was running at the site next door, 200 feet away, so we just shifted everything over there and nobody lost any hours.
About an hour later, this little hatchback in serious need of Midas-izing comes motoring down the road shedding rust flakes like dandruff, with a beat-to-snot 16-foot ladder sticking out the back window. It pulls into the site we'd just quit and out steps a couple of pimply 18-year-olds, each with a $3.00 claw hammer and a cloth apron. One of 'em pulls out the ladder; the other digs around in the car for a minute and comes up with an old Skilsaw and a piece of brown 18-2 zipcord masquerading as an extension cord.
And they start setting up trusses by eye and nailing 'em down while Dweep-face stands halfway up the ladder in his bermuda shorts and rubber flip-flops hollering orders at 'em. I don't know how long it took them to set up those 14 trusses, but they were about half-way through when we left the other site at 7pm.
My boys were falling off the scaffolding laughing all afternoon. It's a miracle nobody got killed....
The HOs of that place were regular clients of mine, also absentee owners. The framing job we were doing for the other GC was a contractual left-over (a 3-season verandah spec'ed on the original plans but never completed) so he had to GC it. He'd already been 'paid' as part of the purchase price of the house, but the owners had specified me as the framing sub.
Naturally, about 9pm that night, the phone rings and it's Mr. HO. He asks what's up; I explain; he says: I'll be there in the morning.
By the following afternoon, dweep face was gone. Two weeks later, he got arrested for beating the sh!t outta his wife (the third time, too), and nobody ever saw him again. The HO's wound up getting his shares in the subdivision as part of the bankruptcy settlement....
Oh, yeah, those two young 'framers'? I hired them as helpers for the rest of that summer whenever I had work for them, and they turned out to be good workers, eager to learn. They're both working as real carps now for a big contractor in Montréal. Nice kids. A double happy ending....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Perfect example of respect where called for and eared.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have designed and built houses. Designing and drafting take plenty of time, but the fact that I took the time to design and draft it meant that when I went and built the thing, I was prepared. When an archy designs a house, the contractor gets a set of plans and has to figure out all the nuances - basically trying to figure out what the archy was thinking when it was designed.
Sometimes when a GC finds an error on plans you get the old, "build what I meant, not what I drew." That's not efficient or cost effective.
Again, I respect the fact archy's have spent lots of time in school, but without actual building experience they are only working with half the book as far as getting a project done. Many times, an architect describes what to do without knowing the exact processes that go into actually doing it. DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash
"Again, I respect the fact archy's have spent lots of time in school, but without actual building experience they are only working with half the book as far as getting a project done. Many times, an architect describes what to do without knowing the exact processes that go into actually doing it."I agree with you 100%. I wish there was more interaction between the two (designing and building).
I enjoyed reading that. Thank you. Well said.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Most GC's can design a house that will be appealing to a homeowner
I'd argue "most." I'd also argue "appealing to a home owner," especially if we are to read "most GC" as being, say 75-80% of GCs. Why? So few people actually know what they want. So few people have been exposed to what good design looks like (feels like, is like to live in, etc.) What do "most people" know--they know the blandness of cookie-cutter subdivisions. If everyone else is doing it, it must be right, right?
and will be efficiently built. A draftsman can CAD it out so the engineer can figure out the structural details.
Wow, I've seen some "drafter-drawn" plans that were anything but efficient to build. Not a very extensive program down to the VTI or ITT CAD drafter class on how to draw an efficient-to-build house (and most of the CAD classes are on drawing multi-story office towers at that).
Twenty years ago, with about 5 years of college, a degree, and about 5 years experience, I thought I knew something about construction. Ten years after that, all I knew was that I'd never know enough.
I've seen some CAD drawings (and recently at that) that the Engineer could not "figure out" (was actually hired to consult to guess what the intent was).
GC brings plans to Building Dept, haggles, gets approval
That must be easier in NC than in my town. Designer of Record is required to re-stamp any of the PC/Code Check changes made (and there's always changes, otherwise we don't need all of those expensive City employees).
Seriously, what the heck do architects do for their 7-10%?
Depends, it seems, on who/what/when/where/how. The quality-time-cost triangle will always exist. Someone will aways be the ringmaster in the impossible circus of getting all three when you can only change two. The question then becomes--who are you going to pay?
Maybe the customer really wants a nice 1800sf house of modest, but useful dimensions. Drafter who draws it only knows from spec houses, so it gets a useless formal living room and formal dining room and a fireplace right where the tv goes. Square footage balloons up to 2300--but, it looks like all the other houses in the other neighborhoods. Customer buys more sf, gets some spaces they don't need or use, but has the comfort of being just like everyone else. Then, two, three houses down the line ('cause they can't 'grow' in their own house), they're buying a McMansion, 'cause that's what everyone else does.
No trade is perfect. The threads here offer ample evidence of it. Doesn't matter, start a "[insert profession] all bite!" and it will get a hundred posts. Engineers, archies, GCs, Subs, H/O, bankers, Munis--won't matter, we can all offer up examples from superlative to sleazy.
If there's a problem with the trade of architecture, it's a lack of acknowledgment of specialization (that, and lawyers are ruining the profession, just like so many others). You get an office that is good at box stores, or pad-lease restaurants--they'll be good at that. Might be that same office would be horrible at residential work.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Had to get that shot in there about the lawyers, didn't you? :o)
Well, if designers would spend some time on the drawings and do some research first, and if builders weren't so damn sloppy, there would be a lot less lawsuits - so there!! I represented a bunch of those pencil pushers over 15 years. They weren't all so pristine and perfect either. <G>
Don
Had to get that shot in there about the lawyers, didn't you? :o)
Well, yeah. I spend now almost as much time filling in forms required for or by lawyers as on projects, it seems. Has the ADA been checked, is so, who did that (fill in a form for the AHJ & the practice and the E&O insurance). Have you checked for all possible AHJ? Have forms to prove it? Get copies, make copies, box the copies up and but them into document storage . . .
Caution, lately work has had B B King going through my mind--"The thrill is gone, the thrill is gone . . . "
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Caution, lately work has had B B King going through my mind--"The thrill is gone, the thrill is gone . . . "Recent British study (not making this up) -- rankings of job satisfaction for careers:-- hairdressers (top of the list)
-- mechanics, plumbers, contractors, electricians, florists (81% had no regrets)
-- social workers, real estate brokers, secretaries, lawyers (5% enjoyed their jobs)
-- civil servants (3%)-- dead last . . . architects (2%)http://www.management-issues.com
dead last . . . architects (2%
Maybe that explains why my brother in law, who is an architect in Florida, was seriously considering going back to being a Waiter in West Palm Beach! I always thought he was just blustering.
blue
The architectural forums are full of whining and moanin.Some of it justified.
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Hey Piffin, would you recommend any of the architectural forums for us designer-builder types?
Mike
Splash is good. Open nature and more or less friendly like BT. But you need to have a ket to login - IOW be a softplan ownerAIBD was worth while but they closed the doors to non-members of whatever the name was ( Americaninstitute of building designeers????)There is another one I'll have to refresh my nid on where it is. I get an update email that draws me back in to it occasionally...it focuses more on CAD solutions than design process itselfDesign Build magazine probably has a forum, but I'll bet it is uner utilized like the remoderlors forums.
I cheecked Hanlet Woods Residential architect and found almost no activity there either.email me with your addy so I can save it again, and I will send you a link when I remember the one I'm trying to recall.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
wood.. Chief Users Group is very good.. with lots of cross knowledgeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Maybe that explains why my brother in law, who is an architect in Florida, was seriously considering going back to being a Waiter in West Palm Beach!"are they still hiring? ;)
dead last . . . architects (2%)
And that's brit archies, who, IIRC, have even more Byzantine hoops to jump through . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You know you're not alone. Design professionals in gerneral all seem to feel they don't get to do enough design, there's too much other b.s.
What other choice is there? Paperwork comes with the territory.
Don
What other choice is there? Paperwork comes with the territory
True enough. City licensing, State licensing, CEU--contractors are up for that too . . .
Just tha having to background all of the contractors, too . . .
Just probably need to put John Lee Hooker on instead of BB <G>
Hmm, nah--SRV all the way.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Your point about respect is well taken. But respect has to be earned. It is not a Constitution Right. It's a two-way street.
It would be easy to point out that any architect inexperienced or arrogant enough to spec mitred corners on lap siding hasn't earned the respect of builders who know it won't work.
It would be easy to point out that calling a spade a f*cking shovel--instead of a human-powered, half-round, excavation implement--saves lots of keystrokes, time, and money, and usually gets the attention of the person to whom you are speaking, and does so pretty quickly.
It would be easy to point out that you, as the 'middle man' in this communication between us and your archies, screwed up big time by not 'interpreting' our comments to them in the sensitive, new-age manner that seems to be so important to both you and to them.
It would be easy to point out all those things, and although I could re-phrase every one of those propositions in delicate, respectful, politically correct babble talk if I had all night to do it in, I am not going to do so. Because I'm hungry, and it's late, and I still have to go cook my supper, and I don't believe it would change anything in your situation anyway.
Sorry, Mr. Corlis. You asked for professional opinions here; you got them free of charge and free of baffle-gab. Now you're complaining. Sheesh.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I am the guy that started all this by calling the architect an idiot. I was just venting. You should see what I have to deal with these days. We have been building a whimsical dream with 6 different roof pitches, casement windows that open into overhangs , ten different overhang lengths, Ten foot steel frames for a 2 foot door, hundreds of yard of concrete and steel to make the dream come true, six inches under minimum for stair headroom, bastard on bastard on bastard valleys, ridge beams not perpendicular all over. The architect just sketches a dream and hands it over to the engineer to "make it so".
We try hard to work as a team with other tradesmen on the job. There is no lack of respect day to day. I always try to help the other trades and make their job easier. We are one of the only crews willing to help this architect make his dream come true. He has a reputation for some reason and we are his enablers. It's work, but not very carpenter friendly and very labor intensive.
I design homes myself that have drop dead curb appeal and are easy to build. I am only a carpenter though.
stuck-up architects, doped-up electricians, freaky framers, lazy trimmers, filthy masons, crappy plumbers, blow-hard HVAC installers, blind painters, screwball roofers, smelly landscapers, lame-a$$ engineers, dumba$$ HO's, cheap-a$$ developers, hard-a$$ GC's . . . there. Now you've all been called names. Everybody shake hands and make nice.
(shouldn't we all be ganging up on the real enemy . . . the lawyers?) ;)
Edited 9/9/2005 10:15 pm ET by shtrum
>>(shouldn't we all be ganging up on the real enemy . . . the lawyers?) ;) LOLIf you really figured they were the enemies you (collectively - no one here, of course!)) wouldn't screw up so much and/or piss the lawyers' clients off so much <G,D&R>Mana from heaven! Full employment for lawyers!Remember: No clients pissed off/injured = no lawyers.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Thanks R - I was going thru the rest of the post trying to figure out a response. You took care of it.
Don
Why are lawyers the enemy?
I was doing rehangs ( all entry doors) on a condo project a couple of years ago.
The home owners told me that the original finish company was put out of business by lawyers for installing faulty doors. These doors were about five years old. Hadn't been painted since the day they were installed and got soaked every time the sprinklers came on.
If that does't make them the enemy how about insurance companies?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a job is difficult, you charge more, right? If a job is horrendously difficult, you charge a horrendous amount more for your work, right?It seems to me that if this is the case, you can't complain about difficulty. If this is not the case, why take the job?I can see complaining about boneheaded architect mistakes, but wacky designs are not necessarily "mistakes". Taking the job means it IS your job to make it work.
you charge more, right?
Nanny, it sounds like you are naive enough to believe that just because we "charge more'', we actually get it paid to us!
That's funny.
blue
you charge more, right?
Nanny, it sounds like you are naive enough to believe that just because we "charge more'', we actually get it paid to us!
That's funny.
Blue,
Why is that funny? If you get a set of plans that have 20 different pitches on it, don't you give the builder a higher price and get it as compared to a house with 2 different pitches, or does he want to pay you the same price?
Are you saying that when you do give the price the builder says no to the extra framing labor before you even get the job or are you saying that you gave the extra price before you got the job and he gave you the job and you just didn't get paid for it?
Joe Carola
Joe, I'm laughing at how naive and simple that statement is.
I recently looked at a set of plans that I bid at 180k. I didn't get the job. If you just listen to the advice in here, "you charge more, right?', you'd expect to get the job, eh?!
The real point is that the architects should be cognizant of drawing weird and needlessly hard projects. They should be doing their best to meet production needs in residential projects. Last year we built a home that had almost 10k worth of needless extras, all attributed to poor design. The odd thing is that the poor drawing was a result of making the house 20 sf smaller!
Simply telling someone to "charge more" is just naive.
blue
I recently looked at a set of plans that I bid at 180k. I didn't get the job. If you just listen to the advice in here, "you charge more, right?', you'd expect to get the job, eh?!
No, I wouldn't expect to get every job that I chagred more for because of the complexity of the roof. I would expect the builder or homeowner to reralize that they should pay more for it and if they didn't I would walk away.
I wouldn't look at it as just charging more, I would look at it as charging according to the complexity of the job. If I get a set of plans with a roof that has two gables with two different pitches I would charge one price but if I get that same house with 20 different roof lines and 20 different pitches I would charge for that.
If someone says to just charge more and thinks that they will always get it does sound naive. I don't know if that's waht he was saying though.
The real point is that the architects should be cognizant of drawing weird and needlessly hard projects. They should be doing their best to meet production needs in residential projects.
I would agree to that only if your talking about unecessary framing in production houses but as far as very complexed roof framing such as different pitches and a million different roof lines, with custom homes who cares about changing the complexity of the house for production reasons. Let them draw the most complicated roof lines and let the framers worry about framing them even if it takes 3 or 4 months to do. That's fine with me as long as I get my price or if it will keep me from loosing other customers.
I might be missunderstanding you but I think your saying that the Architects shouldn't design a complexed house no matter what type of house it is and they should just keep it simpoe for every house for production reasons whether it's a 300k house or 2million dollar house. Is this correct?
The Architects out here don't design custom homes for production reasons. That will go on a site that has 600 homes that are all the same. The custom homes that they design have no production in them.
Joe Carola
The roofer will charge more too, and since the materisls wasate is higher, the lumberyard will charge more too, and since there clearly more windows in all those dormers, the window supplier will charge more too. Any GC who tries to get the framer to work for the same price is a shyster or doesn't know what he is doing in this business.
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Any GC who tries to get the framer to work for the same price is a shyster or doesn't know what he is doing in this business.
Your right. There is some builders out there like that. I had one builders years ago that we framed this same house many times and then the same house came up that they added 4 dormers 9' ceilings. He questioned me why my price for labor was more money. I pretty much told him to jump off a bridge after I had to explain to him that framing 4 dormers and framing 9' ceilings is more work than not do it at all.
Joe Carola
Back when I started subbing shingles, I was laying the average house for $.50/sq. One builder had the same house built five times for that price, then came one that was the same, except that he added a lot of dutch bables on the hips, a couple bump-outs for bays, with more valleys, and an extra dormer at the end for a "bonus room" over the garage. I told him it would be $6/sq instead and he blew a gasket. I remained calm and firm and told him it would take that much more work to do the job and I couldn't work for free.He sent me packing - rudely - and I never lost any sleep over it even aas young as I was. here's the lesson for the young bucks - he called me back for his next house. Full of apologies because the jerk he found to do the work cheap, did cheap work and then tried to charge him for more squares of shingles than he actually laid, si it cost him more in aggravation while he got a cheaper job - and that was supposed to be his own house! So I got the rest of his work along with the apologee - at my price!
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Piffin,The part that gets me aggravated with these morons is that you and I had to explain why the labor was higher than the other houses to do the job.What's to explain. This house had 4 extra dormers and 9' ceilings and the other houses didn't. What's to explain........I guess that I'll just frame them all for free.Same with you. You can just throw in your labor for extra gables, hips, bump out bays, valleys, dormers, and bonus room for free, Right?Why should we even have to explain this to a builder/bullsh!tter that these raise the labor........Joe Carola
That's why I said that eigther they are shysters or they don't know what they are doing.I think they get aay with it so much because they picture themsselves as being near the top of the food cahin in this business. not so! A sub can make mmre money doing fifty times as many units as the builder sells. That one builder is not a subcontractor's only income. So with that in mind, the two can negotiate with one another on an equal footing. I think where problems come in, is when a young sub starts out letting the GC bluff him into thinking he is a god or that he is doing him a favor by letting him get started as a sub instead of working for wages. As long as the young sub follows along with that thinking, and gets down on his knee to kiss the ring of the GC builder, the myth is perpetuated.The two must approach each other with respect to begin.Same with this thread and respect between archy and contractors. Some archies try to perpetuate the myth that they are little gods in the garden, but the shrines they build to themselves are rotting due to the specs they issued when building them so they topple. To be fair, there are builders who through away the specs too, but if builders and architects start from a basis of respect, we all have a better chance. And the HOs who live in them do too.
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One of my main pieves with archies is when they draw AND price a job. Then, when I come in with my price, and (usually) its higher, I look like I'm trying to pull something. And I'm higher because I haven't forgotten anything.
Architects can be a blessing or a curse; I've dealt with both, as I'm sure you have. But I wish they'd just stick to drawing and designing, and leave the pricing to those who are actually doing the work.
You bring up a good point about pricing, which is my least favorite part of any project. The engineer or architect never wants to be the low bid...unfortunately (at least for the projects I do) providing an engineer's construction cost estimate is usually written into our contract with the customer. There usually isn't a lot of time built into the contract to spend on preparing an estimate, either.
What we need to do is keep track of the actual cost of previous projects, so we have something to base our estimates on, as well as checking in with the trades to see what current costs are like (for instance, being an electrical engineer I periodically call up some of the electrical contractors I regularly work with to find out the latest per foot price of buried conduit, or how many man-hours will it take to install a motor control center, that sort of thing.)
Still, it can be tough. Knock on wood, I usually do OK but there's been more than once when my estimate was way low and the customer wasn't happy about it.
I just don't understand why, if an engineer or architect isn't going to be doing the work, would they even be giving prices.
Here in NJ, as a carpenter, I'm not allowed to submit plans for any kind of project, no matter how big or small. I don't necessarily agree with the rules, but I abide by them. I feel if I can't draw plans for something I'm going to build, an archie shouldn't be submitting prices for something he's NOT going to build.
I can't speak to how it works specifically in New Jersey since I'm not licensed to work there, but in general the idea is that when we design something for a customer we provide construction cost estimates so 1) they can make sure they have enough money in the budget to begin with, and 2) to help them determine if the contractor's bids are in line. From the customer's point of view, the ideal situation would be for all the bids to be within a few dollars of each other, with our estimate exactly in the middle.
This means we actually end up preparing two cost estimates: first, there's a real rough and budgetary estimate at the very beginning of the process, before any design work is started. Then, if that estimate is acceptable we then go ahead and work up the plans and specifications, and provide a second (hopefully more accurate) estimate based on those plans and specs.
Now, this is typical for the commerical and municipal projects I work on...guys doing residential work may or may not get into as much detail, I suppose it depends on the size of the job.
edited to add: I can understand where you're coming from. Since I just do the electrical design, a good part of my work is actually sub-consulting to another engineering firm or to an architect who is the prime consultant on the project. Sometimes they will tell the client we're going to do the work for X dollars, without asking us first. Then, they get all excited when we tell them it's going to cost more.
As far as getting the job in the first place, we go through the same process you guys do- more often than not, we have to prepare and submit a bid for our engineering services, and hope that it's lower than our competitors but not so low that we don't make any money. Then, if we do our job well, we sometimes get lucky and end up with a repeat customer who comes right to us for their next project.
Edited 9/11/2005 10:38 pm ET by Stuart
2) to help them determine if the contractor's bids are in line.
This is the conundrum. If it's ok for engineers and architects to determine whether we builders are in line, why isn't it ok for us builders to question architectural details that we know won't hold up well over time?
Well, my personal opinion is that it should be OK for you to question details that don't look right to you. I've been doing this for over 25 years but I'll readily admit I'm still learning things and I can still make mistakes. I'd rather have the contractor call me up when he sees something on the plans that doesn't look right so we can fix it before it gets built, instead of finding out afterwards. It saves everyone time and money. If the engineer/architect and the contractor can work together, it's always going to make for a better product in the end.
Thanks for the reply. I think if carps, archies, and engineers could just learn to work together, without all this trying to pass blame, we'd all be better off.
Of course, I also believe that the federal government and politicians should be working to improve the lives of the populace in general, not just some rich fat cats.:)
None of us are perfect; I'm the first one to admit I make mistakes. But sometimes all I see is buck-passing. Like I said to Piffin, I've had good and bad experiences with archies. I only have 30 years experience as a carp, and I'm still learning,too, but I do kinda like being treated as a professional when I'm talking to the designers. Not all of them have dealt with me that way.
I don't mean to demean or belittle you or your profession. You seem like one of the good guys. And since you can also put up with hanging around BT and take some of the hits directed at your peers, I guess you've got a good sence of humor and/or thick skin, too.
"I just don't understand why, if an engineer or architect isn't going to be doing the work, would they even be giving prices."Often an architect's prices come from a construction cost guide (i.e., Means). And I don't think I've ever heard a contractor say anything positive about Means. The contractor tends to use historical data (i.e., past projects), which is much more accurate. Unfortunately, there's a wide fluctuation between them sometimes. I've been on 2 or 3 large projects involving schools where the difference was over $1,000,000, mostly because of a good building climate for contractors. With some contracts the architect is required to redo the drawings if bids are over 10% of the estimated cost. Obviously residential work is different, but the architect should probably be more careful to explain to the HO that their estimate is limited and may vary with actual bids.
Edited 9/12/2005 12:11 pm ET by draftguy
Stuart,
On any residential job involving an architect, a good GC may take 40 to 160 hours to generate a proposal, and, he knows his labor costs.
How long does an architect take? And, obviously, he doesn't know the actual costs of labor.
On a commercial project the bid may take thousands of hours. The Architect spends how long?
I can understand the architects providing a materials cost, since they have an exact takeoff and they have already researched the specs of every single item on the job, but to attempt to guess the labor?!? The best they can do is a ballpark, but they don't call it a "Ballpark," they call it an estimate, or worse, simply say "It should cost $XXX."
SamT
That's one of the problems with providing an estimated cost...the customer tends to remember the dollar amount as if it were cast in stone, but forgets the part where we said it was estimated. I wish I had a better answer, but I guess it's one of those things we just have to make the best of. Like I said earlier, it's a pain (for everyone) when my estimate ends up being the low bid.I used to work with an engineer who had a sixth sense when it came to cost estimates - he could look at a set of drawings, lean back in his chair and scratch his chin for a minute, then throw out a number that was nearly spot on every single time. It was like he was some kind of savant or something. Unfortunately, the rest of us usually aren't that talented and really have to work to come up with a number that's reasonably close to reality.
Joe, even if architects are drawing elaborate cut up customs, they still should give some thought to the basic economics.
For instance, if they design a room that meets a span code at x', y", they shouldn't make it one inch larger just because they can.
KISS
blue
Sidebar, your honor ...
I have heard the term bastard valley, but I don't know what it means.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
different pitches
Different pitches of two meeting roof planes?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes Fast Eddie. If you read about bastard hips in the books, they will be called unequaled pitched roofs.
I only see equal pitched roofs a couple times per year since the early 90's.
blue
sounds mor elike a mixed marriage than an illegitimate birth
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Oh Oh, I'm going to have to change my signature line from"Architects Have Been Here"....appled to any over designed but un thought-out detail...to "Sensitive Architects Have Been Here"
Seriously, I took one of the Hotel engineers who's been a big help on my project out to lunch today, after getting a call from one of my compatriots in another city telling me how far he is into his project without a complete set of prints, scope documents, etc...the engineer & I agreed that no one should be certified as an architect unless he/she has actually hands-on on-site built something....far too many "design professionals" have as much experience building thing as Micheal Brown does in disaster management....
That "Sensitive architects" comment is what stand out to me! Worrying about someones feelings in construction work is as out of place as a ship in the dessert. They need to fiond an ivory tower to hide in if they can't take a criticism. Even though it was worded hard, the truth behind it was right there, and if the can't leaarn the truth because they can't see through their tears, it is time to go.
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the engineer & I agreed that no one should be certified as an architect unless he/she has actually hands-on on-site built something
The trick of that is in the achieving it. If a person were tough enough to ask th nabobs over to NCARB, said worthies would likely opine that the eight year process for licensing does/is supposed to do just that.
Evidence to the contrary abounds, sadly.
Some of that is the more-archaic-than-medical-interning practices used in the process of licensing. You spend 5-6 years in college to chase down a professional degree, maybe more. You then get to spend 3-4 more years working for subsistence (less than school teacher) wages.
Your days in a big office are spent detailing stairwell sections, or parking garage sections. Why? Because they are stultifyingly boring, and absolutely required, and everyone senior passes them down to whoever is junior. In a small office, you will get thrown from one project to the other, never seeing any one through from start to finish. Even worse, if you don't know something, you're not likely to get a chance to learn, either, as small shops are on much tighter margins.
While you are scraping by on $24-28K, you also get to pay all sorts of fees & dues to document that you are being a good intern. All, so you can take a test. A monster test. Used to be, Texas gave the 15 sections of the test over just 5 days--so you were spending a week in the Fort Worth motel on top of forking over $2300 to take the test. If you passed all sections (53-61% did), you then sent some more money, and TBLR sent you a hunk of fancy paper and a license number. (Frame it yourself, too; about $300 to get that wet stamp cut, too.) Oh, and no raise when you got back to work, either--not unless you change offices.
How some of the people who did, did so, remains a mystery.
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Not bitter, are we?.....I sympathize, really....now that we have HR departments, and Legal departments, most places want to see degrees, just to be a go-fer....I read some help wanted ads, they want one person to do three peoples jobs for the price of a part-time employee...
and don't get me started on how all professional organizations set up barriers to entry....
Not bitter, are we?.....
LoL! Too sweaty to be 'sweet' <g>
I'm slightly more concerned with the new grads I meet, who generally have little idea what the "real" world will give them--one big giant "fish slapping dance" mostly.
That would also be the problem with a trade practice requirment. You spend 3-4 years as a helper/jm, you'll make more than an intern archy. Also, the guy hiring these people loses some of his best people right about the time they get productive, too. Then there'd be the problem of a pool of college-educated (or educatable) competing in the labor market competeing with folk who want to grow up and frame for a living. It's not perfect, that's life.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Also, the guy hiring these people loses some of his best people right about the time they get productive, too
Of course they lose the best people! They're treating them like slaves. How does that foster a long term relationship?
I'd book at the earliest possible moment.
blue