right reveal for double wood doors
Hi,
This is probably elementary to a lot of you, but I’m just hanging my first double door–it’s a Morgan (Jenn-Weld) 6-panel, pine, prehung, two slabs, one hinged on each jamb.
What should the reveal be in the center where the two doors meet? The distributor (Brosco) had inserted a couple 8th-inch spacers, but as I’m hanging the door (one jamb is set the other is just tacked in for now) it seems like a little more might be good. I’ve noticed that these type of doors have the potential to really swell up in the summer, and I could see having some problems closing/opening them in the dog days of August.
Finish will be a clear linseed oil-based product which is breatheable.
This is a closet, by the way, and will have dummy knobs, no latch.
Thanks.
p.s. these doors are flippin’ expensive ($250 for a 3′ wide)–but they look real nice. Just curious–what percentage of doors that you install would you say are solid wood? How do the Morgans compare to other brands?
Replies
normally.. one door is semi-active and has an astragal..the other is the normally active door and closes against the astragal.. the margin should be the same all the way around.. i like a nickle.. even at the meeting
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for your comments. This is a coat closet in an entry/mudroom, so more than likely both doors will be opened frequently to dig out coats.
I used a nickle for the reveal on some other similar interior doors (not double ones). Aesthetically it seemed like the perfect reveal. However, I hung them in May, and by August a couple of the doors were scraping against the jamb.
The doors were stored on site for a week or two (in the rooms where they were to be installed), unfinished, before they were hung. I did not finish the bottoms of some of them which in retrospect was probably stupid and allowed them to take on more moisture. I should probably pull off the slabs before summer comes and finish them.
But I'm curious about the nickle reveal, because I know a lot of guys use that but it seems like that can really disappear quick when the door swells. How do you handle that?
First I'd try to suck the jambs back a tiny bit with some 12d Galv finish nails, or perhaps even some screws (with appropriate countersink, of course).
Failing that, plane the doors.
I'd go for a 3/16" reveal. It will look OK as is, and give you some slack for expansion. 1/4" is, IMO, too large.
I am presuming it is a prehung, from your information. As such, your center margin is already established by the length of head frame they used in the door shop. Lay it down on the floor so that the jambs aren't under any stress, and tweak positioning so that the top margin is even all the way across. Your center margin will be apparent. If Morgan prehung it with a 1/4-inch margin, that is what you should see. Hang it that way. Your wood doors will look gappy in winter, and tighter in summer, but they should't interfere. Seal 'em up well, and double-seal the end grain at top and bottom ends of stiles.
Double doors can be a little tricky for the uninitiated. Getting everything right so that the center margin is good, and door faces planar and flush when closed, takes some work. I like to work off the most-plumb-and-straight rough jamb and shim and fix there first, then fiddle with the other jamb so the doors are in line with good margins all around, then fix the other one. Fix = fasten. If the door unit was made right, your second jamb should be as plumb as the first. But don't be obliged to be dead plumb on that second "tweaker" jamb. If they made a little mistake in the door shop, your second jamb might be a little off plumb, when things are adjusted so that the meeting edges of the doors are lined up. Don't forget to shim behind the center of the head where the ball-catches are.
Good point--that actually occurred to me after I wrote my post, that the center reveal might be more or less set by the width of the head jamb. As I mentioned, these doors are set up in a shop at Brosco, the distributor, and they had placed eighth-inch wide pads in the gap between doors. It's just that when I installed the door and removed the pads, it seemed like the reveal was a little tight, and when I opened and closed them they kissed pretty solidly (although admittedly I was opening and closing them simultaneously, which I guess isn't really how they're designed to work).
I did shim the head jamb in the center to keep it straight.
I probably just need to fuss with it--the second jamb is only tacked in, so maybe I just need to suck it hard against the shims (I generally replace the center screw in the upper hinge with a nice long 3-4 inch brass honker to really lock 'er in good). It actually looks pretty good and is plumb as can be, it's just that I was a little concerned about problems this summer with expansion.
I generally set my clearance according to the time of year. In the middle of the winter This time of year leave 3/16" to 1/4". Mid summer 1/8" will do. you dont want to come back in the summer to shave some material off a finished door. I'll share a little trick I learned when hanging doors in the winter, put a piece of cardboard behind the hinges (not corrugated). If the door rubs in the humid season, simply remove the cardboard.
In your case you have two doors that are going to swell. You might want to stay on the high side.
I hang a lot of doors, mostly clear pine. I also make a few hardwood doors from quartered stock that will not have as much seasonal change.
i do the same thing regarding varying the reveal with time of year, but it started when i was newly learning (not that it ever stops...) and my old boss asked me why the reveal was a little fat on the latch side of the doors i was installing. since i had no good answer, save blaming it on the door manuf., i told him it was due to the cold conditions, allowing room for expansion in the summer. he was quite impressed with this level of forethought in someone pretty green, even though i made it up on the spot, but since then i have always considered seasonal change when installing doors (as well as other applicable materials).
Thats a great story!
People tell me I'm a good and creative problem solver....I often mumble something about being good at creating problems to start with!! LOL....Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Prehung ...
check the level of the floor across the opening ...
cut the jamb legs as necessary ....
center the head in the opening ....
plumb the legs ...
check the head for level ....
unless there's been a maunfacturing defect ...
your reveal has been predetermined.
For a closet ... the back bevel will be the side you see ....
so if there's an 8th showing on the outside of the closet ...
there's probably closer to 1/4 showing on the inside of the closet.
If they are beveled ... which they most likely are ...
that 8th will be just fine.
I think U said stained and not painted ... even better for a nice tight reveal.
Focus on getting them perfectly plumb and level first ...
all the way around ... the jamb legs have to be plumb in 2 planes remember ...
the head level the whole way across ...
make sure the wall opening is "straight" across ... so the jambs aren't cross legged .... unless the door bottoms are slightly warped ... then you'll purposely "cross leg" the jambs to have the door bottoms meet nicely ....
GTe the basics nailed down tight first ...
the hinged can always be seperated later to fix the gap if needed ...
Most "mis-gapped" doors I've seen are due to non-plumb and non-level installs.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Thanks for sharing all the tips, opinions. After fussing around with it a bit a nailed 'er off good and the reveal ended up being about 3/16, which looks fine and hopefully won't narrow up much in August.
One last question, though, if you don't mind my asking:
What's the customary treatment for the jambs/drywall edge on the inside of a closet door? Just leave it rough? Nobody's ever going to see it, and it seems crazy to waste time and decent trim stock on it. But that sheetrock edge can leave gypsum dust on coats that brush against it.
Also, I would be curious to hear general opinions of the solid wood doors made by Morgan.
If it's your house and you feel it's a waste of money to trim the inside, then leave it bare. If you are doing it for someone else, trim it or they will think you are a bum.
trim it ...
and trim stock is cheaper than 1x .....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
OK, ok. . .you guys are right.
By the way, Jeff, I'm using 1x4 stock for the casing--nice clear white pine from a local mill. 'Taint cheap.
But don't ask me to biscuit those miter joints on the . . .please!
C'mon, Ed, where is your pride? You are going to bite the carpentry bullet and trim the insides of the closets, now, and you don't want to biscuit the miters like you did on the outside?
Biscuits are cheap, and the time to zap in the cuts with the plate joiner is like, nothing. Consider the work practice, a tune up, honing your carpentry skills for when you do something like Spielberg's guest cottage. Hairline joints! Perfect registration! No splinter tearouts! Biscuits! No glue squeezeout! Perfectly filled invisible nailholes! Try something new and join up the whole jamb-head-jamb casing before nailing it up!
Have fun. Whaddaya got, like, four closets to do?
We are all presuming you put base in the closets. You didn't ask about that.
Geez--I was afraid somebody'd say that.
The baseboard was a no-brainer because it's plainly visible, but frankly I doubt anybody's ever going to actually lay eyes on the inside casing of this closet door.
Hell, a lot of guys don't even bother with biscuit joints on their miter joints even where it's visible. Of course I bet they come apart after a few years.
I tend to be too much of a perfectionist and spend a lot of time fussing with stuff. So now I'm trying to learn when it's OK to say "good enough!"
Edited 3/27/2004 10:21 am ET by MONSIEUR_ED
Hell, a lot of guys
Even us guys case the inside of the closet.........at least in the customers home. You'll be embarrased if anybody looks in there.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
yup, finish like anything else.
I do it because I know it's there.....Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
We use the guideline:" Big enough to throw a dog through" All seriousness aside, if you are hanging this in the summer (heat & humidity) set it at 3/16. If in the dryer winter, better set it @ 5/16 because it will swell up on you.
(PS- it's Jeld-Wen)
Jeff J Buck is right about the bevel but sometimes the bevel is not enough when you put two doors together. Typically a single door needs 2 degrees. A double needs at least 3, maybe 4 if they are narrow.
Now come on. Don't even hesitate to do good work. Make it nice and tight and be proud.
Believe it or not, there does not appear to be a bevel on these doors--or if there is it's so slight as to be virtually indistinguishable.
Since I'm getting bludgeoned over the head for even suggesting that the inside might not need casing, I should clarify that this is my own house we're talking about. And there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done. . .seemed like installing casing on the inside of a coat closet might be kind of low on the priority list.
if it's your own house ...
don't "finish" the inside of the closet.
Now don't get me wrong here ... you should have all the best intentions on finishing it .... but seeing as how it's your own house ....
being a real carpenter .... hanging a nice set of frenchs counts .... you are to never really finish your own house.
When the wife complains ... tell her ... Hey, at least it's only the inside of the closets that ain't finished! Why I hear tell of a carpenter's wife in Pittsburgh that's been living w/o a bathroom sink for over a year now .....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
The degree of the bevel on a door is directly related to the size (width) of the door. The larger the door the smaller the bevel needed, the smaller the door the larger the bevel needed. The bevel on double doors would be the same as a single door. A 2/6 single would be beveled the same as a 5/0 double.
Open both doors at once. You'll see what I'm talking about...
Peace.
Draw it on paper and you will see my point. If you draw a circle with a 30" radius ans a circle with a 18" radius on the subfloor. Then draw a line fron the center to any point on the circle. Then make a that line 1 3/8" thick, this is a representation of a door and the arc it swings. Where the second line intersects with the circle is the bevel needed to make the door work whether it is a double or single.
When you open both doors at once they will not have a problem if they are beveled in relation to the radius they swing. If the doors need a bigger gap then they are not beveled to the correct angle.
When you look at the bevel needed for the 30" door it will be less than the bevel needed for the 18" door, so the smaller the door the more the bevel needs to be.
My description is probably lame, wish I had a drawing to show you so it would make sence. Joe Fusco would be able to explain this concept far better than me.
Hey you are absolutely right. I posted on the way out the door yesterday morning without much detail.
Here is what I mean to say. The fixed point (line) representing the hinge pin is about 2" in front of the back plane of the door. Across to the other side of this plane is the door edge (inside strike edge) that hits things. The arc created by this edge gains toward the strike jamb and other door until it is about 2" out from the stop. Needs more bevel. Quite often people open both doors at once.
2 degrees works for doors down to 2'0 so that's how I set up. I use a ramped plywood straightedge with a top beiring router bit to make (and finish) the bevel. I use a flat plywood straightedge to remove a bevel with the same bit.