I was planning on putting on a cedar roof (24″, 1/2″ think shakes), but was talked out of it by my father, who talked to a carpenter who swore that they always leak and when they do, you can’t figure out where. I get the last part, but I really would prefer wood. My wife has ruled out the easy ribbed metal roof, which leaves the harder Everseam standing seam roof at 210 a square, or asphalt. We’re building a cape in an apple orchard. There is a lot of roof (2500 sqare feet) and a fair amount of living space under it. Everything is cooler (in all senses of the word) than asphalt.
Two questions:
1) The Everseam people told me that the standing seam requires a bender, which I can buy or rent, to bend the metal over the drip edge, as well as some cutting for width. It does not require that the seams be rolled tight. This doesn’t sound too bad for me to do myself. Is it?
2) Does cedar really leak if you follow the overlap guidelines and interweave the felt the way you’re supposed to?
Thanks again for the advice.
Weaf
Replies
Installed properly, cedar won't leak. Until it fails. Best guess is 20 yrs.
See "copper roof in progress" thread for a standing seam look see.
If you have never done it, don't start now. It requires a whole new mind set and tools.
As far as cedar goes, the felt is NOT gonna make up for defects in the actual install. And , can lead to more headaches than you envision as far as trapped water...cedar needs to breathe , skip the felt and apply it to skip sheathing ( 1x4's on 7.5" centers) and let it do its job.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=60932.1
here
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Edited 8/4/2005 6:09 pm ET by SPHERAMID
SPHERAMID,Felt is applied above the reveal on skip sheathing to prevent wind from blowing water and trash past the shakes. Not good to skip.
Read here.
http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/roof_manual/page04.htm#Pic.KK
Yeah, and 200 yrs ago they used white oak splits, never a lick of felt. I just replaced one.
Just because a manufacturer wants a safty net, don't mean the old way don't work just fine.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
edit, Here is an example of new work with oak next post I guess.
Edited 8/4/2005 7:25 pm ET by SPHERAMID
Specced by histerical archy's Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
you think tarpaper was an option two hundred years ago?
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Wrond advice onm the felt paper. When installing shakes, the interweave is an absolute necessity. You refer to it as making up for poor installation, but it is part of a correct installation with shakes. i think you confuse the shakes with cedar shingles, a common error, especially in the east, where shakes are less common.
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P, I have done that job as an installer to what was caller for by the arch. Not my call. AFAIK, no leaks...it was OAK. Hand split ( well, I KNOW he used a log splitter) mostly white oak...775.00 a SQ. for the stock, and I had 50% or more in wasted splits.
It still went down as watertite...no leaks
I subbed a job from Cu that was cedar, sawn backs and split face, 24's with 7.5 showing, added felt 'tween courses @ 15".
I bet the oak lasts 20 yrs longer than that cedar. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
If it was white oak, you win the bet, but because of material choice, not method.
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Fer sure, the ramifications and situations control the outcome of any install.
I like the diffacullt methods obviously, cuz that is what I do best. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I like the best methodss sop I don't have to be difficult;)
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When I get older I will too. (G) Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You two should stop being so difficult.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
You bringing te axe to CAls? again?
I'm ridin / w Cu. I'll drag op the Ovation 12 st..but I only know C d an g chords...lol
I hear some john prine mebbe? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"You bringing te axe to CAls?"Yup."again?"Now you sound like you don't want me to!! LOL!"I'll drag op the Ovation 12 st."Great!"I hear some john prine mebbe?"I know two Prine songs, Spanish Pipe Dream and Christmas In Prison.I only know Christmas In Prison because you posted the lyrics/chords awhile back.If you have the chords to any Prine you want to hear, email them to me: [email protected]. I have four Prine CDs so there's a pretty good chance I'll be familier with the songIt is nearly impossible for me to figure out the chords to a song by listening to it. I've done it a couple of times, but mostly by dumb luck I'm thinking.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Almost EVERY Prine song is only three chords. G,C and D. He ain't what ya call polished. LOL.
I'll see what I can muster up from Sweet revenge or Jesus , the missing yrs.
I have not been playing at all , for too long now..I better start warming up. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The only cedar shake or shingle roofs I have seen that leaked were 35 years old at least. Even then, proper maintance every ten years or so and those roofs would last longer.Go ahead and install the roof using proper techniques.
mike
I agree - I have reroofed cedar roofs at least fourty years old. i have also repalced cedar roofs seven years old that were poorly done.
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Could I have some fries with that Shake?
I sounds like you were talked out of cedar by a "carpenter".
but the right person to install a roof is called a "roofer"
See the difference?
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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I don't like wood for roofs because it can burn. Just a couple of hot ashes from your chimney or a neighbors house fire and poof, your house is gone.
Just my 2 cents.
Skip the felt. It traps water and the life of the shakes is extremely shortened.
3' to 6' ice and water shield at eaves,depending on overhang length.
Dry the deck in starting at the eave(over the ice and water shield) with synthetic underlayment.
2x2 skip sheathing or "Cedar Breather" over deck.
Install shakes 10" to weather(use 1x6 tacked in as guide to lay shakes on).
In addition use stainless steel fasteners only!!!!! 7/16"x2" staples.
One of the bigest failures on cedar roofs is bleeding and rusting fasteners-even coated siding nails.
Copper strips 8" wide laced in the rows depending on run(eaves to ridge). This cleans the shakes and is not harmfull to the plantings below.
You are arguing with yourself in contradictory advice. The I&W will do more of the "trapped water" knind of damage than th efelt will, if the felt is properly laid in. The purpose of the I%W is to overcome failings of venting and insulation.Properly weaved felt will never "trap water". it's purpose is to kick wind driven water back out on top.
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I may not have explained the proccess well enough. The ice and water shield is code on all roofs. It must be ion place to satisfy the inspectors(2' past wall plate on a horizontal plane).
This is placed directly on the sheathing only to satisfy the Code.
The roofing system is then placed on top of the completely dried in roof deck.
The problem we face with shakes today is that we are using a traditional roof product in a highly regulated modern "codified" process.
Wood needs to breath. FHB had quite a detailed article on the installation of cedar siding that was basically the same as I am proposing,but on a vertical plane.
I may not have as much experience as you all (only 20 years of roofing in the mid west). But I have removed (then replaced) many shake roofs that were installed with interlaced felt as per instructions that lasted only 15-20 years max.
JM2Cs
thumper...lemme guess... the ones with the premature failure were not on skip sheathing.... and they were not on cedar breather..
in other words , it is not the interleaved felt that is causing the failure to dry ... it is the lack of ability to dry to the back side..
the interleaved felt does not stop it from drying to the back side.... as a matter of fact it will wick the moisture in both directions down and out..
and up and back... it will facilitate the drying cycle between rain storms
even the cedarbureau gets it wrong... they STILL say you can apply roof shingles on felt directly to plywood decks.. i made that mistake ONCE.. never again
if it's shakes , we interleave the felts..
if it's shingles we use cedar breather.. since skip sheathing will not pass our wind uplift requirements
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
even the cedarbureau gets it wrong... they STILL say you can apply roof shingles on felt directly to plywood decks..
I find that similar to the tobacco industry's hard line that there's no real proof smoking causes cancer.
More cedar gets sold that way.
Actually, IIRC, certain areas don't allow split sheathing (earthquake country for example). I may be wrong about that. Birth, school, work, death.....................