I’m redoing my bathroom and when I removed the tiles and rotted decking I discovered that a floor joist had been cut so a shower drain could be installed. I’m going to correct this by installing a header. I’ll use joist hangers to attach the header . My question is can screws be used to attach the joist hanger? I know that screws don’t typically have the same shear capacity as nails, but the space is tight and using screws would be easier. Are there any screws that would work in this situation?
Thanks
Replies
Hello Matt, Welcome to the forum,
This one has been kicked around a few times as well as most subjects,
You know the whole 100 monkeys, 100 years thing--LOL
In any case don't use screws--if space is tight and you can't swing a hammer then head down to the rental place and pick ya up a palm nailer--Seriously can get in places you can't get a drill.
You'll have it done in less than a half day if you have your supplies and the piece of mind you are solid under it all--you only have one chance to get it right, is well worth the nominal rental fee.
Again welcome aboard--
Mike
" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Jeez, where's Paul when you need him. . .
Anyway, I think Simpson makes metal connector screws to use with their hangers. I'm not real sure where you could find them. Those are probably the only code approved screws you can use for those, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stronger than other screws. Just better quality control, I assume.
zak
Edit: here are those screws: http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/screws.html
They're made to be used with this hanger
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/HUCQ.html
Edited 2/12/2006 2:17 am by zak
Here he is Zak!
This is what I know about using screws with shear type connectors:
1. Both Simpson and USG (I think, can't remember the other big connector company name for sure at the moment) say you can use screws BUT at a lower load value than nails. USG gives an actual number, Simpson just says a lesser value. This is a CYA as there is ALOT of variety of screw quality out there.
2. Not all screws are created equally. I've had great success with McFeeleys 1.5"#10 round washer head screws in this application, McFeeleys 3" #10 ProMax, as well as #9 3.5" Phillips Deckmate Square Driv screws (for toenailing). I've found Grip Rite screws to be awful, but Hillman to be OK as well - though I've done no testing on them.
3. Whatever screw you use, do not use a #8 size. This is just too small. A #9 or #10 will fit the nail hole snug and not be easily broken.
I've got some video and pics of some tests I did awhile back, do a search on "Screws vs. Nails". Lots of info was shared on this subject in that post. My informal testing showed some screws beating the pants of nails in this application... and no, they didn't shear off - though a couple of nails did.
For a repair like you describe, screws should be just fine. Certainly alot cheaper and easier than renting a compressor and palm nailer for the afternoon!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"Both Simpson and USG...say you can use screws BUT at a lower load value than nails"
Got a reference for that? I've never seen a hanger manufacturer say that screws were allowed.
(Except the Simpson screw/hanger combos that they sell)
Ninety-eight percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Here is the link to what I am quoting below:http://www.strongtie.com/productuse/faq-general.html
Note: Simpson does sell #8 wafer head screws, but these are for putting together their bench kits I think.
I do wish they would put out some kind of "Acceptable Alteration" guide for possibly using their 1/4" screws in their other face hangers.
The other one was USP, not USG:http://www.uspconnectors.com/nails.shtml
OPTIONAL NAILS FOR FACE MOUNT HANGERS AND STRAIGHT STRAPS LOAD TABLE
Catalog Nail
Replacement Fastener1
Allowable Load Adjustment Factor
DF-L
SP
S-P-F
LVL
16d common
8d common
0.70
0.75
0.60
0.70
16d common
10d Box
0.67
0.72
0.58
0.67
16d common
10d common
0.83
0.91
0.72
0.83
16d common
12d common
0.83
0.91
0.72
0.83
16d common
10d x 1-1/2
0.81
0.88
0.70
0.81
16d common
10d Sinker
0.59
0.64
0.51
0.59
16d common
16d Box
0.74
0.80
0.64
0.74
16d common
16d Sinker
0.83
0.91
0.72
0.83
16d common
16d x 2-1/2
1.00
1.00
0.86
1.00
16d common
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.60
0.66
0.52
0.60
10d common
8d Box
0.63
0.68
0.54
0.63
10d common
10d Sinker
0.70
0.77
0.61
0.70
10d common
8d common
0.83
0.90
0.72
0.83
10d common
10d Box
0.80
0.87
0.70
0.80
10d common
8d x 1-1/4
0.64
0.69
0.55
0.64
10d common
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.72
0.79
0.63
0.72
10d common
10d x 1-1/2
0.97
1.00
0.84
0.97
10d common
16d Sinker
1.00
1.00
0.86
1.00
10d common
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.72
0.79
0.63
0.72
12d common
10d x 1-1/2
0.97
1.00
0.84
0.97
12d common
16d Sinker
1.00
1.00
0.86
1.00
12d common
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.72
0.79
0.63
0.72
8d common
8d Box
0.75
0.81
0.65
0.75
8d common
8d x 1-1/4
0.76
0.83
0.66
0.76
8d common
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.86
0.95
0.75
0.86
8d x 1-1/2
8d x 1-1/4
0.76
0.83
0.66
0.76
8d x 1-1/2
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.86
0.95
0.75
0.86
10d x 1-1/2
8d x 1-1/2
0.86
0.93
0.74
0.86
10d x 1-1/2
No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw
0.74
0.81
0.64
0.74
1) No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw has a shank diameter of 0.164" and shall conform to ANSI/ASME Standard B18.6.1-1981.How to Use:The base value is the catalog listed nail in Douglas Fir-Larch and the adjustment factor is the multiplier for the applicable replacement nail and wood combination.• Adjustment factors may vary with some custom hangers or steel thicker than 10 gauge. Contact USP for exceptions.• Roofing nails shall not be substituted for any nail size or type. Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I noticed that Simpson doesn't actually give any VALUES for screws in their hangers. (Unless I missed something)
I did notice at the bottom of the table from USP it says:
"No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw has a shank diameter of 0.164" and shall conform to ANSI/ASME Standard B18.6.1-1981."
I don't know what that ASTM standard is. I wonder how many people are gonna check that before they use screws. Do screw manufactureres actually list that on their packages?
"A far as the shear strength question, its mostly hypothetical. Nails will pull out of a board long before their shear limit is approached..."
Shear strength is NOT hypothetical.
To get a published design load, a hanger is only allowed to deflect 1/8". The shear value has everything to do with that.
Just think, if it weren't for marriage, men would go through life thinking they had no faults at all.
I noticed he said that the shear strength QUESTION is mostly hypothetical...we both know that the answer, of course, is anything but hypothetical, as do inspectors.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think they do in this document:http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/bulletins/T-FBS02.pdf
It's even up your alley too, as it has to do with truss connections to the top plate!
I'm actually ordering that "ANSI/ASME B 18.6.1" document right now - I was curious by it too. Unfortunately it is $35, and not downloadable so we will all have to wait to find out what it is. I've found (and since lost the link) one place that sells specifically B18.6.1 wood screws, I'll see if I can't round that up too and order a bunch to see what sets them apart.
Simpson also specifies diameters for the nails to be used in there connectors. Good luck finding some that actually measure up. Take a caliper to the nails you use and see if they are actually as thick as they should be, I found a lot of variation myself.
As for shear strength being hypothetical, I was referring to the theory that nails will hold better in shear than screws, as screws would theoretically break off at a lower load than nails would. In reality - and you can see an example of this in that thread link I posted, go to post #58 for the pics - the nails cannot hold themselves well enough in the wood to demonstrate this upper limit.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
That would be the test where your test was totally devoid of validity right? The one where you predrilled for the nails because you are too incompetent to drive a nail?
because you were ignorant of the fact that a nails holding power is based on the displacement of the wood?You were educated about your failings of that theory back then but you continue to proclaim your assinine theory that will probably get somebody hurt someday. Why can't you admit that you are are an inexperienced DIY with absolutely nothing to go on but you baseless thoughts? or at least keep it in context?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Meow! Someone found a bug in his oatmeal tonight.
Lets take you questions one at a time:
Q: That would be the test where your test was totally devoid of validity right?A: It's like you are speaking english... but not quite making it. Maybe you can write that sentance with less coffee in the veins.
Q: The one where you predrilled for the nails because you are too incompetent to drive a nail?A: If you are talking about the toenailed attachment test for the joist hanger, then yes I did predrill the wood that would have a fastener put through it. So you don't drill a pilot hole for nails that are close to the end grain... so how do your nails hold when the wood splits out? Going back to that testing post with the BC40 hanger that was nailed with coated 10d... I pulled out the two that were on the left with my fingers... because some dork pounded them in close to the end grain without bothering to drill a pilot hole.
As to the second part of your question, yes I am too incompetent to drive a nail - specificly in two strokes as you say is the only proper way to drive in a nail and have it hold tight. Apparently a palm nailer is also a tool that has no place on a job site? Actually, when driving a bunch of plastic caps I was able to get some in two... then one shot off and hit me in the face. No more of that!
Q:because you were ignorant of the fact that a nails holding power is based on the displacement of the wood?A: Looks like something happened to the beginning of that sentace, if you were asking something else than what I am answering please let me know. If you are saying that a nails holding power is based on wood displacement and not friction, I'd really like to see your source. If you learned that from someplace, give me a link or a book title and I'll look it up. If a nails holding power is based on displacement, then why coat them, ring shank or screw shank them?
Tell you what, if you can't find a source for your claim then come up with a way to demonstrate what you are saying. Take a pic if you can of your results. I'll run the same demo based on your description. We'll see if you are spouting fact or crap on this issue.
Q(statement): You were educated about your failings of that theory back then but you continue to proclaim your assinine theory that will probably get somebody hurt someday.A: Ummm, Nooooo. If I recall correctly, you started coming up with strange things that I tried to get verified over on Knots as a second opinion. A few argeed your point was bogus, no one agreed with your point, then a bunch of people got mad thinking I was trying to bring a fight to another board.
Like I said before, if you think your "theory" is better than mine - prove it.
I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about with people getting hurt... maybe you could explain that better.
Q: Why can't you admit that you are are an inexperienced DIY with absolutely nothing to go on but you baseless thoughts? or at least keep it in context?A: Long sentance, lets break it downWhy can't you admit that you are are an inexperienced DIY - I do all the time, you forget quickly. Maybe its the "coffee" again.with absolutely nothing to go on but you baseless thoughts? Well so far you've kept this a My Belief is Better Than Yours. If your thoughts are not baseless, please prove them.or at least keep it in context? Don't know exactly what you mean by that, could you please clarify?
Piffen, you were so lucid earlier today. What happened?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
What happened is that I get pissed that some crackpot who can't learn to drive a nail or is maybe afraid of breaking his own nails comes up with a crazy idea that screws are better than nails for building a house than then constantly pushes that idea when it is is patently false.Asking me to prove that nails have their holding power based on displacement of the wood is like asking the HS science teacher to prove that two plus two is four. It's second grade stuff. You want me to prove to you that falling off a roof can hurt too? Gravity works but I don't have to prove it.You keep pushing your crackpot craap like as though you know something about building when I've already forgotten more than you'll ever know about it.Drill a hole to make it easier to stick a nail in it 'cause you don't have balls enough to drive it in and it will come out easier too. That simple fact doesn't take much thinking to figure out, but you can't seem to grasp it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Your english skills have improved, thanks!
As for "crazy idea that screws are better than nails for building a house", well you've really got that wrong. Because this will come up again... and again... let me be clear to you on what I think about this: There are many ways to build a house; many designs, approaches, materials, and tools. There are also many ways to make repairs and renovations to an existing home. The decision to use any design, approach, material, or tool is a complex relationship with time, money, and expertise. Using nails as a material to build a house is very cost effective, time efficient, and uses the expertise in the field very well.
Using a nail is not the only way to join wood to wood, nor metal to wood. Simson seems to be aware of this, as is USP. You know it too, so I'm not exactly sure why you are being such a jackass right now.
Let me turn this around for a moment. I'll assume you are a reasonable man, who can look objectively at a challenge to his belief. What could I do to demonstrate to you that on a particular topic you are mistaken? Is there a way for me to prove to you that my idea is correct and yours is not? For a man that has forgotton more than I will ever know, this should come easy to you.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
That's better now, Sonny.We both agree that for a small repair like this, the screws are fine as long as they are structural rated.For overall joist hanging on new work, I don't believe there is anything you could do to convince me that screws are the better choice. The best you can do is show them as a potential substitute for the best, and that only in specialized locations.For you to construct a test as you have done, you need to know much more about nails, nailing, and how to nail just to set up the parameters of your test properly for it to mean anything. By the time you learn how to nail to do that, you will by then have convinced yourself that you were wasting a heck of a lot of time with all this buzz about screws.As for right now, I find it nothing worse than humourous when you use them for your own backyard projects. It is when the tenor of the posts you make and the reference back to a flawed experiment indicate that you continue to both believe and recommend to others that screws are an acceptable replacement for nails without clearly specifying that ONLY certain screws in certain applications MIGHT be acceptable in certain jurisdictions, there is a risk that structures will fail due to following or halfway following your advice. Advice which some other novices might tend to accept as gospel, since they read it here in a Taunton site for Fine Home Building.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nails are the right answer - most of the time.
If I have to swing the hammer, then screws are better. After about 15 minutes of hammer work, my right elbow is going to be close to useless for a few days. If I keep trying, it will get worse. So, whenever possible, I pick up my screw gun and some good deck screws. I'm also likely to use quite a bit of construction adhesive. There are no code requirements for my neighborhood and no inspectors. So, for me, screws are the right answer.
There are people on this forum that live by code books and others that have never seen one or care. Sometimes I think we need interpreters so the two can talk to each other and understand what the other is saying.
"According to recent research published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, I've only a 50-50 chance of ascertaining the tone of any e-mail message. The study also shows that people think they've correctly interpreted the tone of e-mails they receive 90 percent of the time. "That's how flame wars get started," says psychologist Nicholas Epley of the University of Chicago, who conducted the research with Justin Kruger of New York University. "People in our study were convinced they've accurately understood the tone of an e-mail message when in fact their odds are no better than chance," says Epley. The researchers took 30 pairs of undergraduate students and gave each one a list of 20 statements about topics like campus food or the weather. Assuming either a serious or sarcastic tone, one member of each pair e-mailed the statements to his or her partner. The partners then guessed the intended tone and indicated how confident they were in their answers. Those who sent the messages predicted that nearly 80 percent of the time their partners would correctly interpret the tone. In fact the recipients got it right just over 50 percent of the time."
ah.. the two pauls separated at birth are conversing again !
paul.. here's how you drive a toenail near the end grain :
take the nail and set it upside down on top of another nail that is already driven .. this is your anvil
now dap the point until it is blunt
now carefully figure the angle that will give you the most "meat" in both pieces you want to join
start the nail at a slight obtuse angle.. but then sharpen the angle on your 2d blow
the last blow is a glancing blow that just bounces off the head... it drives and seats the toe.. the wood will not split
after you do this for 2- 3 years ( or 40 hours, whichever comes first ).. it will become 2d nature and your nailing techniques will be the envy of allMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nails are used to build a house with because they are faster not because they are stronger. Think decks, what holds better screws or nails. Screws don't work out with the seasonal changes like nails do. Drywall, screws are used because they are faster and better than nails. Log and timber construction, timber screws are the method of choice because they hold better than 12 inch spikes. Lots of examples to be found, the only time nails win over screws is when time is a factor. Like the DIY'er said nails that split the board are useless.
"Nails are used to build a house with because they are faster not because they are stronger."What proof do you have of that?Have you compared the thousands and thousands of house that are nailed every single day to the houses that ARE NOT SCREWED every day?So your saying that if someone was insane enough to screw every single pierce of lumber in a house together it would last longer than a house that was nailed?Joe Carola
What proof do you have of that?Nail two 2x8 together using four 16d sinkers then screw the same set of planks together with 4 screws, try pulling them apart. If that doesn't convince you nothing will. Consider metal roofing as in barn roofing. Metal that is screwed down will not tear off in high winds, nails, even ring shanks eventually pull out. I can show you two buildings side by side sitting on my place, one the roofing was nailed the other screwed. The nailed roof leaks like a sieve because the nails worked out over time. The roof screws are still tight.Have you compared the thousands and thousands of house that are nailed every single day to the houses that ARE NOT SCREWED every day?If they are NOT SCREWED I suspect they are nailed so what's the point.So your saying that if someone was insane enough to screw every single pierce of lumber in a house together it would last longer than a house that was nailed?That would be insane, since in most cases the nail is sufficient to do the task required so the screw would be overkill. My point is a screw of the same diameter and metal type as the comparable nail would be stronger than the nail. Several of the high end builders I work for screw all the subflooring down, combined with the adhesive it make for a no call back squeak free floor. As for the framing, no I doubt screwing would make much difference over the life of the building.
"Nails are used to build a house with because they are faster not because they are stronger."That's what you said in one of your posts and I asked you what proof do you have of that and you gave me pulling apart a screwed header vs a nailed header example and said if that doesn't convince me nothing will. Well, your right that example doesn't convince me and doesn't mean squat as far as a house being built with nails vs screws.Joe Carola
I didn't get that either. Four screws vs four nails holding a header together? The screws break or the nails pull out and bend. So?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I gotta agree with Riverman. If you screw four screws to hold a board together, you won't rip it apart using normal methods. If you nail them together, they'll come apart easily.
I'd put my money on four piffin screws against four spikes on a simple pull apart test.
blue
Easy there blue. A piffin screw is by definition a screw that is inadequate for the task it is used on, so you'd lose that one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Easy there blue. A piffin screw is by definition a screw that is inadequate for the task it is used on, so you'd lose that one.
I'm not backing off. Four 3" drywall screws are inadequte to hold up the brooklyn bridge, but they'll hold two chunks off 2x10 together like they were joined together at the hip. Four spikes will only hold till I wedge my claws in between.
The point is that four screws have substantially more holding power than four nails, in a two chunks of lumber pulling test.
blue
> A piffin screw is by definition a screw that is inadequate for the task it is used on, ....
Oops -- I always thought it was just another name for a drywall screw, especially used when the drywall screw is holding something other than drywall.
-- J.S.
A drywall screw trying to hold up a cabinet on the wall is a perfect example. It is because of my campaign to connvince people not to use a brittle SR screw for hardwood cabinets that the term came into being. The principle is the same. Use the wrong fastener for a job and it is likely to fail.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
John, I was under the same impression. I think Piffin is extrapolating.
blue
These discussion boards are intended to exchange ideas, very few people build everything the same way, many locations have different standards or totally different ways of doing the same thing. Some people take the info and turn it into something useful others prefer to waste their lives argueing and thus never assend past the bottom rung of their trade. If you want to nail everything go right ahead, you will do fine as there are plenty of no thought required, low budget, build it quick get, out and move on to the next project type of jobs to be had.
"These discussion boards are intended to exchange ideas, very few people build everything the same way, many locations have different standards or totally different ways of doing the same thing."I agree with that 100%."If you want to nail everything go right ahead, you will do fine as there are plenty of no thought required, low budget, build it quick get, out and move on to the next project type of jobs to be had."That's where you and I are different. All I said to you was that you’re saying screwing a house is stronger than nailing a house and I said it's not. That's all, Plain and simple.You go ahead and say just like the other Ignorant A-holes YOUR WAY IS BETTER AND STRONGER than me nailing and "is no thought, low budget, build it quick and move to the next project". Instead of trying to put down the way I do things or someone else does things opposite of you which is something that I don't do to someone who does it opposite than I do with the same results, why don't people like you just AGREE TO DISAGREE instead of trying to make it sound like your way is high end and everyone who does opposite you is some low end track builder.Your last post to me you said that you work for some high end builders who screw and glue the sub floors and never get any call backs for squeaks. This high end building gets thrown out a lot around here which to me makes no sense. It sounds like you have you head up the high end of your builders a$$.Try this out. I glue and use ring shank nails for my decks on 100k homes and 2 million dollar homes that I've been framing for the last 22 years and never use screws and guess what........I don't ever get any call backs.........Joe Carola
Nowhere did I say a whole house should be screwed together. You get so ruffled when you see something new you can't read straight. Many of your earlier posts on other subjects indicated you have a good knowledge of the trade however on this one you seem to be showing a dunderhead trait. 22years of gun nailing everything to death doesn't make a good builder. As far as framing a 2 million dollar house and not screwing down the decking, beyond a doubt you are into speedy and not quality. never use screws and guess what........I don't ever get any call backs.........Joe CarolaWith an attitude like yours a customer probably doesn't want you back in his house.
I gotta give the nod to Riverman here. I wouldn't think of nailing a 2 million dollar deck, unless the builder indicated to me that he wants me to nail it and he'll go back just prior to carpenting and screw it. I've worked for a lot of builders that want it that way.
blue
This discussion started on the subject of STRUCTURAL joints. A subfloor is not going anywhere whether you use screws or nails. But use the wrong fastening in the joists, and the whole thing can fall in - unless you are counting on the decking screws to hold the joists up when the hanger screws fail. You guys are diverging into metal roofing and decking screws to try to prove that screws should be used in structural locations. tell you what - next time you get stuck in the mud, reach up with your hand high, bend your elbow and grab a handful of your hiar, and lift yourself up out of the mud. Makes about as much sense as the way you are trying to stretch this arguement.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You guys are diverging into metal roofing and decking screws to try to prove that screws should be used in structural locations. tell you what
I don't think so. I wasn't diverging into anything other than supporting two posts on a very limited topic. I don't know anything about metal roofs and screws and I don't think I'd ever try to prove that screws should be used in structural locations. I'm sure if the right screws were designed, manufactured and used in structual locations, they'd be stronger than ordinary nails however.
blue
"Many of your earlier posts on other subjects indicated you have a good knowledge of the trade however on this one you seem to be showing a dunderhead trait. 22years of gun nailing everything to death doesn't make a good builder."It means that what I've been doing for the past 22 years WORKS and still WORKS with great results. So that means I must being doing something good."As far as framing a 2 million dollar house and not screwing down the decking, beyond a doubt you are into speedy and not quality."Now who's showing a dunderhead trait? Since you are 100% sure that screws will guarantee you no call backs for squeaks and I've already told you how long I've been framing without screwing and getting no call backs, why is it that you only screw decks down on high end homes or think that me framing a 2 million dollar home should only get screwed?Like I told you in my last post that I will nail down a deck for a 100k home or a 2 million dollar home meaning that my work ethic is that same for every job I do. My quality is the same for every job I do. I will not screw down a deck on a 2 million dollar home and not do the same for a 100k home. I will put 100% of quality on EVERY job I do no matter what type of home it is. You’re the one showing a dunderhead trait by thinking that screwing down a deck will guarantee you no squeaks when you don't have to screw them down and also just doing it on high end homes as you said it yourself. So you guys who do this so called high end homes have higher standards for them and not the same standards less expensive homes?Face the facts Riverman that your way of building doesn’t make your quality of work any better than my quality of work because your screwing and I'm nailing and we're both getting the same results by having NO CALL BACKS!I said, " I never use screws and guess what........I don't ever get any call backs.........You said, “With an attitude like yours a customer probably doesn't want you back in his house."Then why is it that I get call backs from their families and friends and all the GC's and Builders to work on their homes or to build their homes and still frame 2 million dollar homes without using screws?Joe Carola
The issue I see with you is not nail verses screw but rather you trashing a DIY for posting a valid comment worthy of thought. I have learned more over the years by listening to every idea that comes along and mentally filing them away than I have trashing someone who may have done something differently. In many cases what seemed like a dumb idea sparks a thought that leads to a totally different perspective. As for doing the same quality of work in a 100K house as to a 2 mil. house. I guess if you only do things one way that's great, in framing that's certainly possible. Tight joints, straight and square is about as good as it gets. If nailing works for you 100% of the time and you are happy with it go for it. In some areas of the country you would not get the bid if you nailed the decking or if you did you would be made to go back and screw it down. I'll agree some houses that were deck nailed do not squeak, and some that were screwed still squeak, still the odds of have a screwed floor squeak are certainly less than a nailed one. What do you tell a client who just bought a 2 mil. house and has a squeak in the middle of the living room floor? Sorry this worked for the last 20 years, besides I saved you 75 bucks? Nice try. I think you will be paying to remove the carpet and adding screws. Maybe it hasn't happened to you but it has happened to others. You might get away with it in a 100K house whereas the 2mil guy will have your azz in a sling.You said, “With an attitude like yours a customer probably doesn't want you back in his house."I'll cut you some slack he in assuming your real life persona is not as abrasive as your cyber image.
"The issue I see with you is not nail verses screw but rather you trashing a DIY for posting a valid comment worthy of thought."Riverman,You’re going way off the deep end here or down the river some where with your last post. You sound like a little kid who didn't get his way.First of all I was trashing anyone and I did not even know you were a DIY'er, but that explains your inexperience on the field and not herein what you want to here and having a complex about being a DIY'er. I don't trash DIYer's at all. Anyone who is asking a question whether you’re a professional or a DIYer is taking a step in the right direction. I don't trash a DIYer for asking a question unless they say something stupid like taking out a lally column in their basement and getting made at someone because they tell them that they can't or taking out a 12' bearing wall and wondering if they can put a 2x6 header in there and when their told they can't they get made.When people like you come on here and tell me that your way is quality and my way is not. You are talking completely out of your a$$ and show how ignorant your are.Why can't you get it through that thick skull of yours that nailing a deck down works with great results from where I'm from and that yes I have been doing it that way for over 20 years with great results. So why should I change something that works and is a non issue or is ever brought up? I've framed many different ways before and I change with the times. There's lots of ways that we frame that are different than 20 years ago and screwing down decks aren't one of them."What do you tell a client who just bought a 2 million dollar house and has a squeak in the middle of the living room floor? Sorry this worked for the last 20 years, besides I saved you 75 bucks? Nice try. I think you will be paying to remove the carpet and adding screws. Maybe it hasn't happened to you but it has happened to others. You might get away with it in a 100K house whereas the 2mil guy will have your azz in a sling."Again with your ridiculous talk about the 2 million dollar houses compared to the 100k houses. There's really something wrong with your twisted thinking. Your telling me I don't do quality work because I don't screw down floors but you keep saying how concerned you are and sounds like your scared sh!t of a person who owns a 2 million dollar house as opposed someone with a 100k house.You should be doing the same quality work for both and if it did come up I would rip the carpets out of both houses and screw the floor down because both clients to me are worth the same amount.......“In some areas of the country you would not get the bid if you nailed the decking or if you did you would be made to go back and screw it down.”Again you make no sense. If I get a set of plans from anyone and it says that the decking has to be screwed than the job will be priced that way and they will be screwed. If it’s not on the plans to be screwed, no one will make me go back and do anything. I’m not going to walk away from the job because it has to get screwed. I follow the plans and the job will get done according to the plans and if I think something is wrong on the plans I will call the Architect.To be honest with you, you didn’t sound like a DIYer and you should be smart enough to realize that things are done a different way because you said it yourself. Anything else you care to discuss about screwing and nailing? Or can you let it go and realize that I do what’s right and if I wasn’t sure of something I wouldn’t do anything at all until I find out the right way first and that I get the job done with quality and integrity by nailing instead of screwing? Or can we agree to disagree?Joe Carola
This new name re-enlistment/registration/change thing that we all recently endured and are enduring has certainly made things interesting around here.
be a re-run of BH:o)
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
First of all I was trashing anyone and I did not even know you were a DIY'er, but that explains your inexperience on the field and not herein what you want to here and having a complex about being a DIY'er. I don't trash DIYer's at all.WOW, holy crap, I owe you an apology. No wonder your steamed. I reread the entire thread and somehow must have merged Piffens post 17 trashing the DIY who started the thread in the first place with your initial reply to me. No wonder it didn't make sense to you. Jeez, time to retire, take vacation or something. On the bright side I'm sure someone out there got some entertainment value out of the whole thing. All right I'll take the flogging now.
Shear vs. uplift/withdrawl. Tension vs. compression. Apples vs. oranges. Fasteners in joist hangers are predominately resisting shear forces; i.e. the load pushing the joist down from the header. Comparing two wood assemblies being pried apart has nothing to do with the original poster's question. Shock loading or loading with a jack the same assemblies so they slide apart is the appropiate comparison. Good science is critically dependent on the proper initial axioms used in any given circumstance.Of note was the keen common sensical observation by some professional that a few screws in the hanger will perform better than a cut joist flopping between ceiling and wall...bloody plumbers! I hope the original poster got the advise he needed. I just worry about the weekend warriors and misguided tradesmen screwing their joist hangers into the ledger boards of their decks.This thread has been great and is what makes Breaktime what it is. By the way, after reading all the great posts has anyone thought to ask an engineer or am I just mad? Did the original poster get his bathroom floor done? Or is he still waiting for a concise and decsive answer?
This has been entertaining. I didn't realize that nails vs screws was such a hot button issue. Maybe I should have asked a less controversial question, like "how great of a President will Hillary Clinton be?" (that will get some of you going).No, my question wasn't answered, but I don't know if there is one. Not unless someone has done shear testing on screws. I've looked but I've been unable to find anything on the Internet. I wouldn't assume that just because you can use a drill you can swing a hammer. I'll be on my back in a crawl space with 18" of clearance (if I'm lucky), with multiple pipes and two drains to work around. I've nailed joist hangers under similar conditions and it's time consuming and a pain in the a**. Screws would have made life a lot easier.
"No, my question wasn't answered, but I don't know if there is one. Not unless someone has done shear testing on screws."Matt,The bottom line here is that your safe with nails, period. No one here is qualified to test screws vs nails. Nails are on the simpson website and everyone uses nails for hangers that I've ever seen. I've never once seen a screw in a hanger. My word means nothing but the simpson website does and it shows nails.http://www.simpsonstrongtie.com/products/connectors/lus-mus-hus-hgus_pt.htmlJoe Carola
No question that nails will hold the full load that Simpson rates their hangers for, probably much more even with a saftey factor built in.
Think about this though: You will be hanging a new header between two existing joists. Each side of the header will be held up by a joist hanger. So instead of say 10 or 12 nails holding up the joist at the end (before it was cut), it is now going to be held up by two hangers, with a total 20 to 24 screws. Plus, its a shorter joist being held up. With this, those screws only have to hold slightly less that 50% of what the nails might have originally held.
As others have suggested, this is one of those cases where even assuming a much smaller load capability, you should still be fine as long as you don't fill the holes with drywall screws!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"Think about this though: You will be hanging a new header between two existing joists. Each side of the header will be held up by a joist hanger. So instead of say 10 or 12 nails holding up the joist at the end (before it was cut), it is now going to be held up by two hangers, with a total 20 to 24 screws."Paul,I don't understand what you said there. Are you saying that you don't nail the headers into the double joists first with 2x material? The headers always have nails toenailed through the sides into the joists first and then the hangers are put on and nailed through the headers and into the double joists.Sometimes on an existing house there's no room to put the hanger on the header afterwards to nail through the side of the hanger so I will nail the hanger on first and you can still face nail the hanger into the double joist.Joe Carola
This is what I was imagining:
View Image
The brown being the joists, the orange being the header. That header might need to be doubled. The grey are the hangers.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"The brown being the joists, the orange being the header. That header might need to be doubled. The grey are the hangers."Matt,The joists and the header has to be doubled to frame what you drew. You have to put double joist hangers on the header and single joist hangers on the existing cut joist that are nailed to the header.The header gets toenailed to the double joists and the existing cut joists gets toenailed to the header and then you install the hangers. I've built many houses with no hangers at all and then went back when all the framing was done and put the hangers in last. Joe Carola
Edited 2/16/2006 5:49 pm ET by Framer
Why would you toenail under the hanger, when the hanger already has notches for toenailing after it has been attached to the face?
And it's "Paul", BTW :)
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 2/16/2006 7:21 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
he's a traditionalist.. he's been setting joists since before there were metal connectors..
so , for a framer ( i'm not a framer, but i do frame ) it is faster to install everything with nails .. and then go back and install the metal connectors...
in framing, so much depends on repetition and breaking things down into tasks.. one task is rolling joists, and different task is installing hagers.. it is faster to do it by task instead of my joist
so .. joe's joists ( and i would venture to say , most joists ) get both toed and then they get toed again when you install the hangersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
so .. joe's joists ( and i would venture to say , most joists ) get both toed and then they get toed again when you install the hangers
But Mike, isn't there a point of diminishing returns? Aren't too many penetrations on the end of one joist acutully going to weaken it because your basically broomsticking the end?
blue
i'm only talking for my self.. i set the joists with two toes.. then go back and install all the hangers..
and no, i don't think you are weakening the joist ends ,, the toes are not splitting the joists, so why would they be weakening them ?
you remember installing 2x10 joists before hangers , right ? 5 toes ? 6 toes ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Aren't too many penetrations on the end of one joist acutully going to weaken it because your basically broomsticking the end?"The joists won't weaken at all. I've done every single house and addition that way since day one with no problems.Joe Carola
Aren't too many penetrations on the end of one joist acutully going to weaken itYes. Once the ends are split the strength of the joist has been compromised. A good eye and experience will tell a tradesman wether the end grain will split or not. No sense in lobbing in a nail next to a knot or a section of wild grain and risking a major blowout. I try to angle the nail away from the problem spot or if that's not possible skip the nail entirely figuring on one less nail into the joist is better than a mangled split end. In a must do case I'll flatten the point of the nail with the hammer allowing it more or less to cut a hole rather than spread the wood fibers as it penetrates the lumber. Sometimes works sometimes doesn't.
"Aren't too many penetrations on the end of one joist acutully going to weaken it because your basically broomsticking the end?"
Agreed. Overnailing is commonly seen, and accepted.
It always strikes me that shooting a connection full of nails will weaken it. I wonder if any work has been done to show that, for instance, too many face nails weaken a stud to plate connection.
Some of the nailing schedules in that chart seem to indicate that some parts would be overnailed, but code required. I guess we can't argue with the engineers and their charts...
blue
"Why would you toenail under the hanger, when the hanger already has notches for toenailing after it has been attached to the face?"Paul,Because I toenail the joists in with 10d's and then go back later when the house is done framing and install the hangers with hanger nails. I concentrate on getting the house framed and a roof on so it's water tight and it's easier and faster to nail the joists in first instead of wasting time with the hangers when you don't need them until the last thing on the house. It can be done on a rainy day. Besides any laborer can nail joist hangers on.Joe Carola
Edited 2/16/2006 10:23 pm ET by Framer
I see now. It's a much different approach with new framing that if you are confronted with a repair, and all the boards are already in place (even if just barely). Tomaytoe/ Tomahtoe type of deal.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"I see now. It's a much different approach with new framing that if you are confronted with a repair, and all the boards are already in place (even if just barely)."Paul,It is different on repair work or doing renovations. New work and existing work is always different. Before I thought we were talking new work. On new work I go around and set all the main doubles for stair openings and fire place headers first and then fill in the joists sometimes nailing a hanger on the last 16" center closet to the double joist because later it would be difficult.Even on existing homes for example when I have to cut out for a stair opening I will double up the joists like you have in your drawing and then cut back the existing joists and then install the double header and toenail it into the double joists and then nail each joist sometimes having to jack them up flush do to sagging and toenailing them into the double and then when all is done install the joists hangers.Like I said in one of my posts on existing work sometimes I have to nail a hanger first do to existing layout either on the cut joists or sometimes on the double joist.Paul, before you said," The brown being the joists, the orange being the header. That header might need to be doubled. The grey are the hangers."Why would you think that just the header MIGHT have to be doubled when I told you that the joists on each side of the header has to be doubled and the header has to be double. Unless that drawing was a basement and there was a wall or posts underneath on a footing or soemthing. Why would you think that just the header MIGHT have to be doubled and not the joists on each side of the header, existing or new work all three have to be double sometimes even tripled depending on spans? You didn't answer me before.Joe Carola
The question of doubling or tripling can only be answered if there are loads that demand it. It is entirely possible that single members will suffice as drawn.
blue
"The question of doubling or tripling can only be answered if there are loads that demand it. It is entirely possible that single members will suffice as drawn."Blue,I'm talking about 2x's and I've never seen a situation where a stairwell could be framed with single joists and a single header with no supports under them before.Joe Carola
jim... i know you know this..
but just to state the obvious:
a general rule -of-thumb would be if you are heading off a joist, then the header is going to transfer the load of the headed joist to the side joists of the opening.. so , theoretically they are now carrying additional load so they must be doubled
the more joists headed, the more load transferred to the side, the doubles become triples or beams
the header itself , especially with a single headed joist, can usually be a single...
but it is often penny wise and pound foolish to run the risk that the Building Inspector will make you reframe it.. so any labor or material you originally saved will be flushed down the toilet
when in doubt, or lacking a PE stamp on the drawings, double , double, double..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"the header itself , especially with a single headed joist, can usually be a single"Mike,The only time I've ever framed something like that was when the existing joists were 3x10's and that was once which was this past summer and there was a cneter girder about 4' away from the header.Are you saying unless otherwise noted on remodeling that you can frame cutting out one 16" center joist and head it off with a 30-1/2" head the 30-1/2" header can be a single and the joists on each side of it don't have to be doubled for 2x framing?If so around here that would never fly. Around here they now make us double up the headers for attic stairs and hvac returns and put hangers on them. Every skylight rafters and headers are always doubled. The only time you don't have to double up the skylight header is when the header that's closest to the wall is less then 12".Joe Carola
Edited 2/18/2006 8:10 am ET by Framer
joe... i hedged my comment.. but apparently not enough
don't you think a 30" 2x10 will carry a single joist and it's load ? and not deflect ?
don't forget, it's also getting braced by the glued and nailed subfloor..
but like i said.. it's not worth tempting a Building Inspector to have your reframe it or get a PE stamp... so, i would double it to CMAMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"don't you think a 30" 2x10 will carry a single joist and it's load ? and not deflect ?"To be honest, I think so because I've seen it on older homes and there still standing sagging of course but there still standing but I've never seen it done in new work and it's always specked on the plans that they are to be doubled. What about the joists that this single 2x10 is nailed into. Can that be a single also?"but like i said.. it's not worth tempting a Building Inspector to have your reframe it or get a PE stamp... so, i would double it to CMA"From where I'm from I would never have to worry about that because we have know choice but to follow the plans and when they call for doubles the house gets doubles. I don't have that luxury of changing plans from doubles to singles as some people do from reading here and at JLC. Framers can not change a plan at all. I call Architects and question many things and if they agree they will come down and sign off on it but not me.I framed a 3000 s/f house one time with a hip roof with 2x8 rafters and one 2x10 hip on all four sides. I got a set of plans from a different Architect about a year later for the exact same house and they specked 2x8 rafters and 2- 1-3/4" x 11-7/8" microlams for all four hips.I called the Architect up and questioned it and he basically almost started crying and told me the plans are staying that way and that's it put the micros in. So I had to do it.Joe Carola
i've seen the framing specs get more and more to the verge of overkill..
so i can sympathize with your almost crying architect .. whadda ya wanna bet the 2x10 hips were just fine.. but some PE decided to CHA... ?
look at what's happening to cantilever design Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"whadda ya wanna bet the 2x10 hips were just fine.. but some PE decided to CHA... ?"Mike,As far as I'm concerned they were fine because I've framed a million houses and additions that way. That house is the same basic two story colonial with 2x8 rafters and 2x10 hips that we've framed many many times before and all of a sudden this plan shows up with double 11-7/8" microlams. This guy couldn't convince me to waste that kind of material and money in a million years but I had to do it."look at what's happening to cantilever design"Are you talking about 2x framing or I-joist framing? What are they doing different from where your from?Joe Carola
Edited 2/18/2006 9:23 am ET by Framer
joe.. remember the raised ranches of 1970 ? 24' foundation with a 28' 2d floor ?
they were getting 2' cantilever on the 2x floor joists.... ok , they were wrong..
but now.. if i move a bearing wall off the wall below in the joist direction.. all of a sudden i've changed all of the loading.. to me .. as long as i've stayed within the dimension of the joist ( for instance moving a dormer wall in 12" on a 2x12 joist system, i should get full, or practically full, value as the direct bearing..
obviously there has to be some devaluing... but not enough to change the floor frame if the shed dormer wall is only supporting a roof ..
but the plans come thru with lots of additional requirements if you move off the wall belowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"but now.. if i move a bearing wall off the wall below in the joist direction.. all of a sudden i've changed all of the loading.. to me .. as long as i've stayed within the dimension of the joist ( for instance moving a dormer wall in 12" on a 2x12 joist system, i should get full, or practically full, value as the direct bearing.."Mike,I just framed one like that about 3 weeks ago. The third floor was stepped in 16" though on top of 2x10's @16" centers and we had to put solid blocking under the wall. The wall above was a gable.You'll see picture #3 the gable at the top.
Joe Carola
i wonder what the solid blocking was doing ? think it takes the place of the rim joist ?
of course in value engineering framing , they eliminate the rim joist anyways
who can say... a lot of CYA going on probablyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,From the wall at the end of those 2x10's going out to those triple 2x10's were ciling joist and on top of those triples and the other micro's in the background was a wrap around roof. You can see in this picture.Joe Carola
Blue: "The question of doubling or tripling can only be answered if there are loads that demand it. It is entirely possible that single members will suffice as drawn."
Joe: "I'm talking about 2x's and I've never seen a situation where a stairwell could be framed with single joists and a single header with no supports under them before."
I might have seen a situation or two that didn't require doubles going into a stairwell.
It all depends on the spans and loading.
The point I was making was that you can't make a blanket statement that every header has to be doubled, nor does every supporting member have to be doubled. That idea is simply not factual. The picture that was shown did not indicate and spans or loads and it's feasible that that assembly was correct.
I've framed a number of houses that had beam placed in what would appear to be weird spots. On one particular model, we had only a four foot span. That span normally contained a basement window that had to be "headered off". The single 2x10, 32" header, nailed into single 2 x 10 "beams" certainly was strong enough to carry the 2' jacks!
Like I said, it all depends on the loads and spans.
blue
"The point I was making was that you can't make a blanket statement that every header has to be doubled, nor does every supporting member have to be doubled. That idea is simply not factual."What I should've said was that around my area all three have to be doubled no matter what the situation is. You cut a 16" center joist on 2x material that 30-1/2" header will be doubled and the joists that it's nailed to on each side will be doubled also.Joe Carola
"The question of doubling or tripling can only be answered if there are loads that demand it. It is entirely possible that single members will suffice as drawn."I have seen it quite often in stair work. Consider a stair opening that has support walls underneith, as in an inclosed stairwell. The floor joist do not need to be doubled since in reality they function no different than rim joist. Last year I retro-fitted a winder stair into a tiny little cabin. The way the buildilng was framed originally it was either stay with the existing single joist on the long side of the stairwell opening or rip half the bedroom apart on the second floor just to add a double joist. The span at that point was almost 12 feet so I extended the newel post up to the ceiling effectly cutting the span down to a 4 ft and a 7 1/2 foot section. The box newel column contained a standard steel screw jack post and was supported by a bearing wall below.
Edited 2/19/2006 8:32 pm ET by riverman
I agree Riverman. I've seen a lot of single members, even in stairwell work.
One of another very common situation that I run into is cantilvered jopists over a central beam. The cantilever might be slightly more than allowed without any other support, but close enought to not use a double. In cases like that, there are a lot of carpenters in our region that will automatically double it because "that's the way my grampa showed me", but in reality, it isn't warranted. Because I'm frugal by nature, I tend to save those $25 members.
blue
It's kinda ironic, but I finally took a peek at the house plans that we are speccing in March and lo and behold the stairwell will be built in between two steel beams 4' 6" apart! That stairwell header will be a single!
blue
Are you saying that you don't nail the headers into the double joists first with 2x material?
I never toenail the joists into the header first. We used to do that in the olden days, then install a "joist angle" but no one allows joist angles today except in weird circumstances.
Some joist hangers have their holes angled so that the nails toenail into the header. Some don't. Either way, the only nails we put in are through the holes in the hanger.
blue
Whoa!I'm new here. Is this sort of flaming BS typical? I did a search on Riverman and find him quite credible.I've been a framer, then roof cutter, cum cabinetmaker, now stairbuilder. I can tell you that when you think you know it all you're done, over, in terms of progress in the trades.Check your thinking framer -- there is always more to learn.Respectfully,Another Framer
> I'll be on my back in a crawl space with 18" of clearance (if I'm lucky), with multiple pipes and two drains to work around.
A palm nailer often helps in places like that. Another thing I did was to cut recesses about 1/8" deep in the ends of a few pieces of re-bar using a 3/8" end mill in the lathe tailstock. I made them 6", 12" and 18" long. These fit nice and square onto the head of a nail up to 16d, and let you swing the hammer in a more convenient place. The 18" by far gets the most use.
They help in places where the obstructions are close alongside the axis of the nail, so the palm nailer is too fat to fit. They're also nice for working from a ladder, you can stay closer to centered. I've even had a few tricky places where I taped copper roofing nails to the end of the re-bar and reached out thru a narrow gap with it. You also need a set of flat ended bars to drive the nail home that last 1/8".
-- J.S.
Matt,Seems like if you can’t nail for whatever reason the screws, at worse, would be better than the alternative, which is nothing at all. If you are concerned about the shear which seems to be the concern of the nail only crowd then get a sheet metal bit and open the holes in the hangers to allow for a screw of overkill proportions. Hex, square and torex head screws are available in sufficient diameters to carry loads to suit your needs plus a huge margin of error. The whole subject has taken on a life of it’s own considering it was not all that long ago that hangers didn’t even exist. In the 70’s it was sheet metal angles nailed on one side for joist and both sides for headers. With no bottom support all the weight was on the nails and their corresponding split ends. Before that the joist were notched and sat on a 1x3 ledger attached with 6D nails. All these homes stood the test of time, some for a century or more. Now all of a sudden it becomes rocket science, hair splitting technology to header off an opening. Just do it and get it done.
For Matt's purpose in this thing, I totally agree with you. Yoiu may have noticed that this was my practical advice about eithy some posts ago. The flames started when the DIY CRXpaul started in wioth his hobby pushing screws for almost everything and I responded to his misplaced advice.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I understand where you are coming from and I apologize if I stepped on some toes. This whole thread baffles me how such a simple thing can get out of hand, my opinions included.
Here's something funny. A plumber was in today to work on my bathroom and I pointed out how the previous plumber had cut the floor joist and left it unsupported when he installed the shower drain. He looked at it, pulled out his tape measure and measured the width of the shower. He pointed out that the drain was about six inches from being in the middle of the shower. So there was no need for the previous plumber to cut the joist.
I had him center the drain. I'm going to make a "splint" for the joist. I'll sister 2 by 6's to each side,gluing, nailing and bolting them to the cut joist.
Crazy, huh?
'Can we agree to disagree' is a euphamism for 'I'm right and you're wrong'.Framer, your rhetorical tactics are ungentlemanly at best. You read as a wild-eyed kook. Tone down your anger, man.
From:
Framer <!----><!---->
2/16/2006 7:25 am
To:
xxPaulCPxx <!----><!---->
(86 of 126)
69572.86 in reply to 69572.85
"Think about this though: You will be hanging a new header between two existing joists. Each side of the header will be held up by a joist hanger. So instead of say 10 or 12 nails holding up the joist at the end (before it was cut), it is now going to be held up by two hangers, with a total 20 to 24 screws."
Paul,
I don't understand what you said there. Are you saying that you don't nail the headers into the double joists first with 2x material? The headers always have nails toenailed through the sides into the joists first and then the hangers are put on and nailed through the headers and into the double joists.
Sometimes on an existing house there's no room to put the hanger on the header afterwards to nail through the side of the hanger so I will nail the hanger on first and you can still face nail the hanger into the double joist.
Joe Carola
Yep, here Joe certainly presented himself as a wild-eyed kook smirk:o)
For what it's worth and just so you know communication over construction are permitted a certain amount of rough as most that post here don't necessarily drink tea with a pinky extended.
Reading beneath the words one must be aware that if these same guys were to meet in a bar they'd be buying each other drinks and slapping one another on the back.
Now as for the Tavern polijivers, a whole different situation.
With some of those guys it might be more like they'd step outside and use there feet on a face.
Big difference.
BTW Erik, Welcome to Breaktime.
Glad yer here.
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
Edited 9/4/2006 7:34 am ET by rez
Apparently he hasn't stumbled across your Home Dump thread. :-)
be nice
beeeereckbokbok be saving 25
better to be a roosting chicken than a roast.
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
Edited 9/4/2006 8:50 am ET by rez
Great to see this classic thread pop up out of the blue.
Someone get Erik into the Tavern! Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
He's already in a boat with a hole in the hull. He'll be wet and cold by the time he hits the Tavern.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, Computer Balls! Which I refer to as someone who talks #### on a computer and feels safe. What rock did a nobody like you crawl out from under?Did I slap you or drop you on your head somewhere?What's your problem with me that makes you bring up a 6 month old thread up and try to tell me how to talk to people?Can you humor me and tell me why since you think I'm a wild-eyed kook you couldn't have sent me a Private Message instead of starting your mental crap here? Forget your meds?
Joe Carola
<What's your problem with me that makes you bring up a 6 month old thread up and try to tell me how to talk to people?>That's what ya get for gun nailing everything to death.freaking woodbutcher <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
""That's what ya get for gun nailing everything to death.""""freaking woodbutcher <g>""Since this thread I've been framing everything with finish nails....;-)Joe Carola
Computer balls.
Read that thing 3 times and each time guffawed.
Don't know why that strikes me as so funny.
seeyou invented computer balls
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
Rez,It's just something that came to me one day when I read stupid sh!t like Fuzznuts over there. A lot of people talk crap on the Computer like him.The firemen probably just cut him down from a tree branch after the ten year old kids in the neighborhood gave him a wedgy and hung him up on a the branch by his nuts screaming like a girl and wanted to let out some hot air and picked me.Joe Carola
Wonder if he'll be back. 2 posts since first arrival in May.
You bought him out of Lurker status. That ought to be worth a prize or something.
View Image
A bird does not sing because it has an answer. A bird sings because it has a song.
I don't guess you do roofing much. You are a trim guy right?I have refastened screws in roofs as much or more than I have renailed nails in roofs. Screws break off, Nails don't. The threads on screws account for the extra pullout resistance, but you can get nearly the same with ringshanked nails that have better shear strength. One of the biggest reasons for using screws on metal roofs is that you can control the pressure on the neoprene washer AND reset/readjust it again in several years. Has nothing to do with strength. The nails win on strength hands down. Fortuanately strength is not a necessary primary feature on most roofs. It is easy to increase the strength by adding more screws.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't guess you do roofing much. You are a trim guy right?Wrong, I've been at this 39 years full time. All aspects of the trade,from the ground up. Do very little framing or trim anymore since I now spend all my time in the shop building custom millwork. You want to nail everything be my guest, me I prefer to move beyond the primitive and use what works best for the application at hand.
Well, screws are the best for the metal roofing, but not for the reasons you said.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
but not for the reasons you said.OK what is the reason screws are better than nails in metal roofing?
scroll backtwo or three posts. I already wrote once.
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Screws are more brittle than nails. They're shear strength is less as the threads cut into the shank stress already brittle metal. An equivalent root diameter screw may not fit through a hanger's hole. If you can't swing a hammer to toe in a hanger, use a palm nailer. Or hire a professional. I haven't seen any hangers with a manufaturer's stamp okaying screws but then I haven't seen everything either. Screws succede in decking as they resist uplift and withdrawl way more than a nail, even a ringshank(the rings tend to shred the fibers, enlarging the hole which after years of vibration might cause the wood to pop but unlikely). I have used the occasional screw to set a hanger tight but then nailed it off with sinkers or Simpson's(what I call the short stubby nails allowable in the non-toe holes).Some folks read and follow codes, some don't. Some folks follow manufacturer specs, some don't. Some folks pay settlements that their insurance company won't cover due to willful ignorance of codes and specs, some folks don't.
I would not consider using anything but nails to put shingles on a roof or sheathing on the wall. Everything has its place.In 99% of the houses built, cost is all important. The labor savings of using an air nailer over any method you choose to put screws in means that nails are the best answer for most construction tasks.If money were not important, I would ask for glue and stainless ring shank nails on my sheathing - that would probably be faster, stronger, and cheaper than screws. I suspect that you could also make it meet building codes.
Saying screws are strrronger than nails is like saying that white people are more intelligent than black people or that black people are better at sports than whites. The generalization simply does not work at all.When any proven system is in place, the usurper has the burden of proof that another way is better, stronger, faster, easier, better looking, more sexy, whatever. That proof has barely begun to have been introduced for consideration.So bring the head of a screw up against the hard metal of a joist hanger, watch the head pop off and watch how well it holds things together.You make an arguement for screws based on decks, but I don't know of anyone who frames decks with screws, so the arguement tilts in favour of nails. Not sure why you'd argue against your self there.
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So bring the head of a screw up against the hard metal of a joist hanger, watch the head pop off and watch how well it holds things together.For starters you don't ream the screw in past seating the head any more than you would whack the nail three more times beyond the final set. A tradesman should know better. Furthermore I have never seen a head pop off with the screws I use. Most of my staircases use metal weldments or hangers to fasten them to the framing. I never use nails and I have never had a failure or callback due to loose parts or wobbly newel posts.but I don't know of anyone who frames decks with screws,Maybe it's a local thing as very few builders around here nail decking anymore.
Now show me the framing job where the 'craftsmen' are setting the joist hangers. That job goes to the low guy on the totem pole 'cause it is low eyebrow work. You want him learning to be a 'craftsman' on the floor your wife will be living on? You want to pay the extra cost to slow down and set those screws just so? Speaking of cost, the decks are now copper PT framing so those screws need to be stainless steel. I thought the nails were expensive but screws!?! can anybody afford a home up there?
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Now show me the framing job where the 'craftsmen' are setting the joist hangers.
Err...Piffin....I didn't know I wasn't supposed to set joist hangers. I do them all the time.
I also pick up garbage and move lumber.....
Maybe I should turn in my Journeymans' cert?
blue
Did anybody else notice this at the Simpson page linked to:
WARNING: Industry studies show that hardened fasteners can experience performance problems in wet or corrosive environments. Accordingly, use this product in dry, interior, and non-corrosive applications only.
(Titen and SD8 only)
If your joist hanger under your floor is constantly exposed water, your fastener choice is probably the least of your concerns! Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
gunner-
you have a gif of a merry-go-round?
be reaching for the brass ring
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
I dunno, all those heat-treated screws (McFeelys, GRK, Timberlok, Simpson SDS), when a 1/4" screw has the same shear strength as a 1/2" bolt.....I just have this niggling feeling that there's a price to be paid, so the speak, for the smaller fastener.....
There is as far as total pullout, as the larger lag will have more thread area biting the wood. The real price to be paid is... well... a higher price! All those screws are much more expensiver per fastener than nails!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Paul,
for a more real world test of screws vs nails may i suggest the same peices of 2x material put together with 4 or 6 screws and nails respectivaly.... then don't try to pull them appart as that only proves withdrawl strength....
I recommend placing the test peice upright ( standing on endgrain ). securing 1 peice of the 2x laminaiton in a vice of sorts and then applying a shock load to the other peice from above ( or below ).
I suspect that you will find that the hardened screws are apt to shear off and the nails may pull out a bit but will not shear... they will deflect but not break under the same load.
that is the type of test that the ansi folks do... which would be a shear test. Although their test probably involves clamping the fastner down and actually dropping a shear on it.
garden varity screws will snap will before the nails will, higher quality screws ( such as deck screws ) will probably fare better.
Wouldn't it be wonderfull if we could somehow get the softer metal property of nails into a screw that could be driven? alas i think it can not happen as the forces acting on the screw while driving would be too much for that kind of material.
just some observations
james
garden variety screws will snap will before the nails will, higher quality screws ( such as deck screws ) will probably fare better.I would agree, except I'm not referring to the typical prepackaged home verity screws found at Wal-Mart or the even more common drywall screw. Structural screws will carry more weight and absorb as much shock if not more than a nail of comparable size. And no I'm not saying that they replace or should be used in every instance but in some cases the nail is not practical or cannot be installed for what ever reason the proper screw will do the job. Many of the stairs I build have custom steel hangers, almost all the stairs are installed long after the drywall is finished sometimes just days before the carpeting goes down and in a few cases after the homeowner has moved in. In that case it's not wise to start beating around with framing hammers driving in spikes and knocking drywall loose or worse. Structural screws do the job and since your only looking at a few dozen screws cost is not a factor and neither is time. I recommend placing the test peice upright ( standing on endgrain ). securing 1 peice of the 2x laminaiton in a vice of sorts and then applying a shock load to the other peice from above ( or below ). I already did that see post 11. I'm sure if you dropped a piano on the joint the results may differ. Besides we are not talking about screwing every hanger just those that can't be readly nailed for whatever reason.
riverman,
I am not arguing that there are no uses for screws... i have built a fair ammount of interior stairs using them but I am also VERY carfull not to use them i a manner that will subject them to stresses they are not intended to handle.
I work almost exclusivily in remodeling so I see their value.
I just had issue with the " screw two boards together " testing method touted earlier.... that test is not a ture test of shear and as such I wanted to point to a test that woud better illustrate shear.
your test in post 11 gives rise to thought but in a shear situation ( like we have here in the San Francisco bay area) force will be applied in a shock load and not a stedy pressure load ( like a jack would apply)... under a shock load hardened metals are more likely to shear or fracture than softer steel... which will give a little.
the same theroys apply in automotive and motorcycle engineering... that is the reason why you don't see hardened bolts everywhere in a car etc... sometimes a little give is all you need to prevent rapid failure.
james
your test in post 11 gives rise to thought but in a shear situation ( like we have here in the San Francisco bay area) force will be applied in a shock load and not a stedy pressure load ( like a jack would apply)... under a shock load hardened metals are more likely to shear or fracture than softer steel... which will give a little.Good valid point something us builders living in none quake areas never think of. Again it's a local issue, just like fastening metal sheet roofing in high wind areas, nails are out at least in the areas I have worked in.
I'm giving my nod to James..on this post! Excellent summation James!
blue
A quick look at the National Design Standard for Wood Construction will should resolve the issue. The text provides design standards for both.If the heads fall off of your screws, I would suggest you find a different profession.
My profession is remodeling. I rarely build new.It is because of my profession that I have the opportunity to see the flaws and failures left by others before me, so I know what happens and where it fails. I'm the one they call to make it right.So I know of what I speak. People can make wild claims all day long when they are doing nmew work. I still get to see the results when they are gone and the owneer need help fixing things right again. I learn from that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just bought that myself, waiting for it to show up in my email box.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Log and timber construction, timber screws are the method of choice...
Well, I've done a lot of log building and timber frame construction and the method of choice has always been bridge spikes (square cross-section), spiraled spikes, drift pins and through machine bolts. If the bolts are to be hidden, washers and heads are rountinely countersunk and plugged.
The only time I've seen, or used screws in log building is when assembling one of those milled log kit homes that were supplied with 3/8" X 12" lags, which occasionally snapped when driving through the pre-piloted bore....
When assembling larger wall logs or peak logs to support posts, we often use cross-driven drifts, also the method of choice for assembling heavy boat keels and dock framing.
My initial background in construction was in industry where we built and repaired a lot of heavy timber construction. Lag screws were never used, in fact were mostly avoided, but through bolts with shear rings were the standard.
A screw is limited by its thread root diameter....a real weak point when driven into dry materials, i.e. LVL's, Laminated beams, etc. About the only screws suitable for those materials is probably on the order of Simpson SDS screws.
And I have yet to see a garden variety all-purpose wood screw with an SAE rating; most are manufactured off-shore so the quality is immediately suspect (to me anyway).
Screws have their place, but like any other fastener, they have their limits.
And I might add on edit, that screws used, traditionally, for other than furniture construction, mounting door hardware, attaching boat planking and other lighter duty applications, have become increasingly popular with the development of deck screw profiles, cordless drivers and impact drivers, making them an off-the-shelf enticement for easy construction.
As I alluded earlier, lag screws are laughable when considered for timber construction due to their lower withdrawal resistance when stacked up to through bolting....yet some folks think nothing of hanging a deck ledger with lags when through bolting is far superior....and safer....and code required in most jurisdictions.
Admittedly, I use screws quite often, but I certainly avoid them in shear applications (Simpson SDS's the exception) or where merely driving them risks breakage.
Edited 2/14/2006 12:27 pm by Notchman
This could be another one of those local trade variation things. Upper Michigan has it's share of log homes and none of the 10 or 12 builders we work for uses nails any more. Log screws pull the joints tighter and seat the beams better. They cost more by far but somewhere along the line it must pay off since we just don't see spikes used much. One builder claims the screws go in quicker than a nail, I'm not a log builder so I'm only speaking from observation not experience.
As far as those test that I did, taped and photographed, and posted here? You mean the tests you were critical of, but never tried to replicate to prove you were right and I was not? See you could easily do the same thing yourself, Mr Wizard, and show me how I'm wrong. But talk, talk, talk, all you want about how I am wrong, I'm the only one who's actually done something that can be replicated.
Actually, I don't have to be the one pounding the nails. I can easily hire one of the guys outside HD or on the jobsite next door to pound in 10 nails for $10 in two or three whacks. Since you're too lazy to try this yourself, I'd be willing to do the legwork for you.
I'm not saying you are wrong, BTW. I'm saying my experiment gave me results that differ from your opinion. If you disagree with my methodology, I'd like you to put up or shut up. I'd be happy to run a new set of break testing, but I don't want you trying to weasel out of the results, like you did on the others tests I ran. If an experiment can show that your ideas are right and mine are not, great! I've learned something new! But are you willing, or able, to change your mind on this topic?
I tell you what, I'll start a new thread on this so we stop treading on poor Mattts post.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"See you could easily do the same thing yourself, Mr Wizard, and show me how I'm wrong. But talk, talk, talk, all you want about how I am wrong, I'm the only one who's actually done something that can be replicated."You are the one whio is full of BS. I break off structural screws all the time. opposite that, I can't remember ever breaking a nail off. I don't need a cute little movie of me doing it to stroke my ego. I already knmow it is true, as do millions of carpenters. Keep flapping your gums. Flying kites in the wind is fun.
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Peanuts! Popcorn! Ice Cold Beer here!
CrrrrrrrrrrrackerJacksssss!
be an entertaining ballgame
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Got a dog with sour kraut?Maybe hot mustard and a big pickle?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, I'm late to the party, can I still get a seat here? Any beer left?
It's pretty funny watching a bunch of DIY structural engineers fight it out. Sorta like watching Larry, Moe and Curly doing surgery...
Ok, here is something constructive. Simple facts. A correctly designed structure has nails only loaded in shear. So assuming pure shear loading, two round fasteners of equal cross-section and same material will have nearly the same shear strength. So a screw and nail of the same equivalent cross section are equal. Pretty much common sense. But since screws and nails are rarely the same material or equivalent cross section, the answer is it DEPENDS on the size and material.
This is true in pure shear only. Like steel plates nailed together with a Hilti. Because wood is not very rigid compared to the fasteners, when you nail together two wood boards and load them in shear, with enough loading there occurs a certain amount of bearing failure of the wood (it gives some at the hole), which allows the fastener to no longer be perfectly perpendicular to the shear force applied. Now you have an axial force component attempting to pull the fastener out of the back board. This is when the nail loses badly compared to a screw and the screw loses badly to a bolt and nut.
Now go back to your books. Next week's quiz is glue vs. staples.
DG/Builder
Wow dg..you sound like you know what your talking about.
Anyways, Im wagering a couple of milkbones. I don't know who I'm betting on..I'm waiting till I hear the contest.
blue
Yep, this was EXACTLY what I found in my first round of tests. This is also why simple metal shear tests do not tell the whole story. A nail or screw embedded in wood holding an 18ga. soft metal plate is NOT the same as a nail or screw being held in a metal vice and gettin chopped by a tool steel weight.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I can't remember ever breaking a nail off.
In the past few years, Ive started running into a lot of nails that "break". Mostly, the heads pop off very easily. I'm trying to remember what kind of nails they were. I'm thinking mostly box nails and roofing nails.
I've never had a nail shear off like the hardened screws do though...so your point is right on.
blue
<<In the past few years, Ive started running into a lot of nails that "break". Mostly, the heads pop off very easily. I'm trying to remember what kind of nails they were. I'm thinking mostly box nails and roofing nails.>>If I remember correctly, the spec you would be interested in is NER 272. I'll look it up and get back to you. Some nails are definitely better than others.
Yep, that's it. Dry reading, but interesting.http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/NES/Ner272.pdfAs if this discussion needed to get any more complicated. <G>Some of those nails made in Dubai or Korea aren't made out of the same steel as the ones described in this report.
That is dry reading indeed! I don't know about interesting...
I'm just wondering how this thread resurfaced.
blue
Paul...
I think you should put this whole thing to rest by rigging up a test that will actually test the shear stregth of the fastner.. see my earlier post.
but i still think the ansi style test with a shear will be the ultimate test.... If i had more time ( and honestly more interest ) I would rig something like that up in the shop with a control set of weights and drop for the shear... I lack the math to put it into #force of shear but could share the results of the experment if i actually get the time to do it....
now you actually got me interested in doing it because I really want to know... I suspect I can make a fare wager as to the results but would like to do the experment anyways...... now to just find the time.
james
I think you might find that in using the proper screw the hanger metal would tear out before the screw sheared. What happens with a shear pin in a michine application. Soft bolt shears, hard bolt snaps and midium bolt rips the gearbox out of the machine.All depends on what you use.
WILL YOU GUYS CUT IT OUT!!!
I'm trying to eat here and you all got me laughing too hard.
be just lovin' this place. Roar!
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
OK, I just got the ANSI/ASME B18.6.1 standard, and here is what I found:
The B18.6.1 standard defines the the size, thread count, and head recess specifications. Basicly it is the standard by which you can call a particular screw a #8 screw. The sizes are different for cut thread (like the old fashined wood screws) and cold rolled threads (like deck screws).
You know what the odd thing is? You would expect "No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw has a shank diameter of 0.164" to have a shank diameter of 0.164... but no: The shank range for cut thread is 0.168 to 0.157, while the range for rolled thread is .136 to .125. According to the ANSI standard, they are equivalent screws!
But here is the real kicker: Material
"Wood screws shall be supplied in steel, corrosion resistant steel, brass, alluminumn alloy, or other material designated by the purchaser... Screws may be heat treated at the option of the purchaser or the manufacturer to develop adequate torsional strength for the intended application."
So those "No. 8 x 1-1/2 Wood Screw has a shank diameter of 0.164" and shall conform to ANSI/ASME Standard B18.6.1-1981." fasteners can be made of soft steel, brass, SS, aluminum, beeswax, carved carrots... there is nothing there in the standard preventing that! As long as those carved carrots fit the right dimensions, they are an ANSI type fastener!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
use SDS screws, recomended by simpson themselves
I think where the guy got confused with the nail issue is : He was having a hard time nailing a hanger in, and worked for a lazy boss. when he told his boss he couldn't nail it, the boss said " ah, screw it man, you can't see it from my house " So the guy literally went and screwed it, not understanding his boss correctly. All this because some pc sob won't let us talk correct....
There isn't a reason that screws can't hold as much as a hanger nail, but they have to be rated for such and have the blessing of either the hanger mfg or an engineer's stamp to pass code.
Screws are either structrually rated or not. Deck screws, sheetrock screws, and most common screws are not structurally rated. That's a fact. Cheap ol' hanger nails are rated and there isn't a place I can think of that a screw can reach that a long punch and hammer can't put a nail.
If you aren't getting an inspection just using deck screws will probably work fine 99% of the time. So, for the 1% of the time that the screws shear off when the load above the header settles you're either now in a situation of fixing the repair or if the house is sold the new owners have bought a potential problem that legally you are required to pass on as a known problem.
Personally, I love using deck screws for all sorts of things, and in places where many people don't use them. However, in structural applications that's exposing myself to liability that will follow me until the house is torn down and rebuilt, so I'll pass. I've had a good quality #14x5" exterior "deck" screw shear off when being backed out after simply holding up a handrail, just as a reminder that these are still cheap steel and not structurally rated.
If I was forced to use screws, I'd go for the 1/4" x 1-1/2" or 3" torx head screws sold as lag bolt replacements, which are load rated and would problably require the holes in the hanger to be opened up, which wouldn't technically meet code since it's modifiying the hanger, but most would agree that the setup would be stout. Adding in the costs of modifying the hanger, predrilling for the screws, etc. and a simple job just doubled in cost. I'd be pisssed if a carpenter did that while working on my house, and if a volunteer did that I still would have prefered they used that time working on something else. Even if it's your time, it's not free--there are useful things that could be worked on with the time saved.
Cheers,
Don
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'm the last person to recommend screws for this sort of thing ( one reason a failed screw job is called a piffinscrew) but theree are times when the advice here can go on overkill too. For fixing up a joist that doesnb't even exist now, I'd be sure the screwed up joist would be better than the one that does not even exist now!
But for the life of me, I can't uinderstand why there would be room to fit a scrw gun in a place where you can't use a hammer. Sure the stroke is short, but just use a heavy hammer and a heavy fist
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It's hard for people who swing hammers day in and day out to understand the total incompetence of most people with hammers. Especially when your total swing is 14.5" spacing - 1.5" fastener - 4" hammer head. While you, and every other professional framer could undoubtedly whack a nail in with two strokes TOPS with only 9" of swing... I doubt I could generate enough energy with a hammer to annoy my wife enough to roll over.
And it does have to be sunk in two swings - right? After all, doesn't a palm nailer make nailes slippery so they come out easy? Still sticking with that story?
Just measured my bigger cordless drill = 10". Add .5" for bit and you can easily shoot up to 3" long screws with minimal fuss between joists or stud bays. If it gets tighter, you can use an angle attachment. Or, if you are a nut like me you can get the angled Ridgid Impact driver for $99.
No hammered fingers, no nails riccoceting into an eye, no cracked plaster or drywall.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Paul, I'll agree that screwing might be a lot easier in a lot of situations. I've seen spots that needed nails that would be impossible with a hammer or a palm...it all depends on the spacing and whatever was installed later in the way.
I have a flexible extension that I can use with a screwdriver. In a worst case scenario, a right angled srewdriver will work too, but it will be very slow.
I'd probably opt for a strap hanger that extends over the supporting header and just nail through the top.
blue
Another thing to consider for those situations where access is difficult and strength is needed: If you can get at both sides, drill all the way thru and use machine screws with washers and nuts. They're available with better shear strength than nails, and with washers and nuts they resist pullout better than wood screws or nails.
Of course that's a lot more time consuming than whacking a nail. But in repair or remodel work, there can be cases where that's the way to do it. I've even resorted to gluing a nut and washer to my left index finger with rubber cement for a particularly tricky installation.
-- J.S.
I have used a few drops of crazy glue to secure a washer to nut and then used a short box end wrench in a real tight spot. After the whole assembly is mostly on, I give the washer a rap with the wrench and seperate them again. This is mainly when I am working on my truck though...
Forgot one:
4. Predrilling helps - but only a little is needed. Screws will try to follow the path of least resistance though the wood grain when the screw is started. This means you may end up with a pan head that isn't flush with the surface od the steel plate. Pre-drilling a hole only 1/2" deep will keep the screws going the way you want them to. If you are near the end grain, full predrilling is of course still needed, just like it does with a nail to prevent splitting the end grain.
A far as the shear strength question, its mostly hypothetical. Nails will pull out of a board long before their shear limit is approached, while a screw is still holding tight. As an example, look up "EZ Stair". It is a metal hanger system used to make stairways. It is code approved - and you can ONLY use screws in it. When you jump up and down on them, that load is being managed by the shear strength of screws alone. They specify #8's even!
BTW, here is that post I was talking about before, "Screws vs. Nails":
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=59345.1
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 2/12/2006 4:35 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
screws don't typically have the same shear capacity as nails
Depends on what kind of screw you use. Metal to metal screws, such as a #10 or bigger self drilling/tapping screw (Not to be confused with a sheet metal screw) will carry as much or more than a nail. I have used hex head tapcons as well. Not only do they go in spaces where you can't nail with a hammer but they also pull the hanger tight to the framing. One inspector wouldn't buy it until I made a mock up section, fastened a hanger with my screws and another with the approved nails then used a hyd. jack to bust them loose. The nails bent, pulled out and failed where the screws hung on until the header was ripped to shreads.
Yep, that's what I was doing as well. I was just testing a single fastener at a time though, I didn't have a good setup to test a fully filled hanger.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!