Hey guys,
I am new to the Seattle area and am currently working for a national builder as a construction superintendent. My wife and I are working on a business plan together because we would like to operate a small volume semi-custom on your lot construction company. Has anyone with experience building in this area (incl. East-side & North) got historical data on cost per square foot ranges (low – mid – high)? I know that the range varies greatly with level of finish and by how many square feet the overall cost is being spread over and that the best estimate is a detailed quantity take-off from a set of plans however, I am curious to get a feel for the market and to gauge what I should pay for land should I consider building a home for myself.
I should clarify that by cost per square foot, I mean only the direct cost of construction i.e. sticks, bricks & labor -not including land, overhead or profit. Wholesale v. retail.
Thanks in advance for your time and input
Replies
Hi G2 and welcome to the area.
I can't help you on numbers but I just sold my home of 26 years in Maple Valley. The only thing I can advise you about is to use caution before you buy any land in King County.
You probably already know that permitting can be protracted and expensive in the county but more importantly is use of the land. The Critical Areas Ordinance may severely restrict your use of your land, if developing. The CAO has been a point of much contention in recent years. Investigate it thoroughly.
I'm sure some of your new neighbors here on the board will chime in with your request very soon.
Jim
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
We quit building in King County around 1990, first because of a huge drop in the market after a amazing run. Luckily we did not having any houses unsold, so did not take a big hit like a lot of other builders bankrupting them. And also because permitting became such a pain.
Even way back in the late 80's land was very expensive, I think near the end we were paying about $150,000 for high end lot. But the homes were selling for almost a million. Now land is a lot higher and takes a bigger chunk of the total sales price, so you have to be very careful in what you are marketing. Also it is about impossible for a small builder now to buy a lot in a new development, most of the developers want to sell it in one big chunk if possible so it usually goes to the large builders with the money.
Land in King County can vary from 1 million or more to around 50,000 for a small lot, just depends on location and what is wrong with it. And if it is cheap there is usually something wrong with it like wetland issues, steep slopes, bad neighborhood, etc.
To get a look at what land is selling for I suggest you use John L. Scotts interactive map search http://www.johnlscott.com/SearchInteractive.aspx . Just click on more options and check the land box. This way you can look at a map of the area you are interested in and see little icons of what is available and sort how you like, etc.
We build mostly in south Pierce County now and specialize in high end spec homes on parcels from 1 to 20 acres. Right now we are building 2395 sq ft house with attached 2 car garage and detached 2 car garage/shop on 2 acres, it will be listed soon for 449,000 to 469,000. We haven't decided for sure what the exact price will be and are just watching the market to see what it will bear.
Land in Pierce County is high I think and a lot cheaper than King County. A 5000 sq ft lot in a new development is right around 120,000. Some larger 1/4 acre lots recently went for 150,000 in a new development in Graham. This is why I stay out of the developments and can buy about 2 acres for 150,000, this gives the owner a large parcel and a larger perceived value. The homes on the small 5000 ft lots usually sell in the high 2's to low 3's, and the homes on those $150,000 1/4 acre lots are selling in the mid to high 4's. So the bigger lots are a little easier to make money on and it is tight on the small lots, something I don't want to mess with.
To give you a idea on where land is going we own 10 acres in the Fredrickson area that we subdivided into 1 acre lots, and were planning on putting some very high end homes on the lots. But we were approached by a developer who offered $250,000 a acre. We said no to the first offer and countered with 300,000 a acre not really thinking they would accept, but they did accept and all we are waiting for is for another development down the road to extend the sewer closer then the deal is done.
As for sq. ft. costs for the structure the prices are all over the place. They are as low as $38 a sq ft for a HiLine home to $175+ for a very high end home. HiLine is a company in the NW that advertises home built on your lot for $38 a sq ft and up. And there are a lot of speculators around here that are buying some country land and having one of these put one it. http://www.hilinehomes.com There was one right down the road for sale from where I am building. It was there 2776 model, they had it listed for 439,000 on 7 acres. I know they purchased the 7 acres for 110,000 in Sept. of 2005. The house at its basic price with garage is about 115,000 with no options. So figure maybe 30,000-40,000 for site work, septic, well and utilities, they made some money if it sold for asking price. But these houses are cheap, cheap, and they really nail you if you upgrade things. Also the reason the land was so cheap is most of it is wetland.
I'm in Port Orchard and my dad has been building here since the late 70's.
Guy I framed with for about 3 or 4 years is framing for Hiline. I know a few guys who've gone that route. They take about 7 days to frame those things, and I was told Sat they get $2.45ish/sq ft. Building inspectors I've talked to don't care for the quality.
Got any pics? or website?
To those following this thread check out a map of Puget Sound.
Anything to the east of Seattle and Lake Washington up to the foothills of the Cascade Mtns. is prime country for demand. It is becoming almost gridlocked, though, closer in.
Across the water to the west is really nice but you are subject to a terrible commute or dependant upon the state ferry system if you cannot telecommute.
The area is beautiful and has much to offer but is being loved to death. North in the sound are the San Juan Islands. Jewels. David M, one of our long time posters here I believe is in this area. There has been much written lately about those that live and work there are finding it tougher to stay due to high building costs, living costs and taxation driving them out after several generations. This forces many to move away then commute back to hold their jobs.
Hope this helps.
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Edited 2/20/2007 12:41 pm by oldbeachbum
"To those following this thread check out a map of Puget Sound."
Yeah, then turn on the weather chanel. It'll be raining here pretty much any time you check. Or hailing (like right now). Miserable weather. Grouchy people (probably because of the weather). No jobs (Boeing and Wheyerhauser have pretty much abandoned ship). Did I mention lousy weather?
Go (back) to California. THAT'S the land of milk and honey.Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
East side of the mountains in Washington is even worse. Way too hot in the summer (100+), cold and snowy in the winter, and the wages or terrible.
Just wouldn't want anyone moving there on accident. Or on purpose.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Oregon is kinda nice. WAY nicer than Washington. Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
why jim if i didn't know better i would say it sounds like you don't want anybody to move up there and help further californicate washington.
as sancho so eloquently puts it, california is the "occupied territory", and i predict that "occupation" will see more and more states being californicated.
i'm here californicating north carolina because california is not the land of "milk and honey"
I think Zak is crazy! The eastern side of the state is much nicer. It does get warmer in the summer, but only 8.5" of rain all year. As for cold and snowy, it gets cooler, it got down to about 20 this winter, and we had a little snow for about a week. This time of year when it's wet and miserable around Seattle, it's in the 60's during the day and sunny around the tricities area. We build about 100 spec homes a year, primarily on the west side because the market has been better. That is starting to change and we're now doing some spec building on the east side. We moved to the east side last year because we just couldn't take the rain any more. It's not nearly as crowded either, and the traffic is no comparison. With the National Lab being located in the tricities now, along with some of the other high end employers, the average income in this area is now also much higher than the Seattle area, and a bit more diverse economic base.
As far as square footage costs and such, someone has already told you what HiLine is doing at the bottom end. There is a lot of variance above that ground level figure, and most good builders aren't going to willingly share costs of construction with you. You can fairly easily find out selling prices per square foot by talking to a Realtor, and it will be a wide range depending upon how much you encompass. Our last personal home on the wet side, which was waterfront, sold for about $300 per square foot.
1) 100 spec homes is a lot. When you say spec home, do you mean that you start building prior to the house being pre-sold on speculation that it will sell by the time or shortly after you finish, or are you referring to tract housing where you build to an even flow schedule on combined/adjoining lots and have a sales rep on staff to sell the home as you build them?2) I've seen the HiLine product advertised in the little nickel - that level of home is not what I have in mind. Instead I hope to be able to appeal to those who would like something nicer than a production home like those built by Quadrant, Polygon, Centex or DR Horton but who cannot afford a full scale custom home with it's design and holding costs. I have begun a relationship with an architect that specializes in designing traditional craftsman bungalows. I would like to become part of his builder network and represent his designs in the areas afore mentioned. The idea being that he has several "stock" plans that I can present in a catalog to prospective clients. For those who have the money, I can enlist the services of the designer to customize the plans for less than it would cost to start from scratch. For those on a more modest budget I intend to offer three different pre-packaged trim levels - say a bronze, silver & gold trim package, with each a little nicer finish than the previous. For instance, a bronze level trim package may have MDF mill work, vinyl floors in the bathrooms & laundry room and primarily wall to wall carpet etc (enough to get started on but not to hard to upgrade in the coming years as means allow), while at the other end of the spectrum the gold level trim package might offer stain grade oak mill work. solid oak doors and a coffered ceiling in the study, granite counter tops in the kitchen, tile in the bathrooms & laundry room & primarily hardwood floors through out. While I wouldn't expect anyone to divulge their hard costs, I was hoping to find a few ballpark figures for homes somewhat nicer than production homes but not quite so detailed as say the homes built at Yarrow Point. I guess the target market that I am aiming for is homes that sell from the high $400k to the low $700k. p.s. I'd like to learn more about your 100 spec homes & how you got started in business if you don't mind. Our goal is to be able to successfully build and sell 3-5 a year starting out and once the business matures we hope to be at a level of maybe 10 -12 a year. Our intention is to subcontract out all of the work and to keep a handyman/carpenter on retainer for pick-up work. We'd rather not have employees - at least not yet. Those familiar with the book "the E-Myth" might say that I am suffering from an entrepreneurial seizure.Thanks for your time,G2
i have to say i just love it when small guys come in and say we would like to offer a little bit more quality than the standard "tract home" builders, and then read further down how they will "subcontract out" everything.
i fail to see how this offers the prospective homebuyer any "better quality", forgive my denseness, but if you are not doing the work how is the quality any better? you manage it better? (in your part time while keeping your day job as a super for a big builder) you pay your crews better? ( could be if you are getting the tract guys and paying under the table for the side jobs).
don't get me wrong, i have been in the same boat paddling up the same ship creek, trying to build a better product, and i like the idea of craftsman style homes, but my hard question to you is how are you better other than the design when you are subbing out all work? there are lots of difficulties in starting out with working out the bugs and kinks, and answering these questions may help become successful.
typically the subs pay more attention to the bigger builders, where most of their work comes from. and the big guys usually get better prices, although if you watch your subs really close you may be able to work some better quality into it. personally i would break it down to written procedures and strict following thereof, and use that as a selling point. i also think if i pay my guys better i get a better job, so document that as well. problem is, there go all the profits, and this game is not without risk.
and please share what you come up with, i am sure i am not the only one in here with ideas about doing the same thing. asking and answering helps it get sorted.
I have no intention of using the same sub contractors or suppliers that perform work on production homes nor do I intend to keep my day job with the big builder. When I was a tradsman I worked as a carpenter and was part of a crew that did only high end work - architectural built-ins and the like & would not touch production work. There are subcontractors out there that won't touch big builder production work and there are suppliers that offer products that are a higher spec level than production builders use. The idea is to offer the same spec level of finish (ie. real cedar siding -not hardi plank, pella or anderson windows not milgard etc.) & sub contractor base that a custom builder would use only the plan isn't necessarily custom - it's a stock plan. Some of the savings in design come from using a stock plan and from the fact that the homes are generally smaller than a custom home - 1700 sqft - 3000 sqft - savings can also be realized by confining clients to options available in the spec level of their choice instead of allowing total free run to choose anything and everything under the sun (or clouds since we are in the Seattle area;-D). That being said I think that the direction of this discussion has departed from my original intent.
Thanks for your input.
G2
Edited 2/21/2007 12:26 pm by G2