Hello All
I am building a new home in a wooded rural acre lot.
It will be the first home I have owned or lived in with a septic system.
My father in law, who has had a system before, and another relative, have told me that since I am buying new, I should have the largest holding tank possible installed, or one for each floor of the house. They say that most of the problems arise from an inadequate holding tank size.
I have no background experience in this, so any information would be greatly appreciated.
Oh yeah, and it says on the agreement it will be considered a “C3” system. Again, no idea what this means…
Best Regards,
Mark Campbell
Replies
Where i live engineers must design a septic system based on # of bedrooms and soil conditions.
yes
I'd do what rlregalo said. I don't think bigger is better. Unless you plan on not having it work and you have to get it pumped all the time. Then it would be longer between pumping. I knew some people who did it that way. The honey truck was there alot. I don't think it ever worked right. They had a toilet in their bedroom too.
Around here the Health Dept. publishes guidelines on septic tank sizes and, as stated above, the guidelines tend to be based on the number of bedrooms. Bigger is better, but of course more costly.
There's lots of good info on various websites on the operating principles of septic systems.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Well, with a septic system, you're basically sh!tting in a big bucket. Underground. Connected to a pipe to your toilet. And a guy wants to have the biggest bucket possible, so, your FIL is right...Especially if you're 'buying new'. Have the biggest. Furthermore, having one of these on every floor of the house is not a bad idea either--he's right again there.
The smell is a problem. But us country-folk just get used to it.
C-3 is just the orifice size. I've never seen it, but I've got a hugely fat aunt that reportedly has a C3 system. Seems to work for her, anyway.
Also, if you have a baby in the house, make sure you only flush the ORGANIC diapers..Don't ask me how I know.
>>>The smell is a problem. But us country-folk just get used to it.
Not here...watcha eatin'? Too much chili?
...Just kiddin.... the only time we've had a smell problem is when I forget to rinse off the effluent filter...a job that isn't pleasant, but needs to be done every six months.
Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
"The smell is a problem. But us country-folk just get used to it"Sounds like you have a poorly designed system
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Big tank is not a bad idea but I'd think 2 tanks would be more headache than it's worth. Better option IMO is to install a gray water system to collect that not-so-dirty water from the clothes washer, shower/tub drains and the like and reuse that water for irrigation.
A few of the things that kill a septic tank are: flooding the field tile system with excessive water, tank solids overflowing into the the field tile (too much sludge at the bottom, too much food wastes down the drain, too much non-human waste down the drain), killing off the pooh-eating bacteria with chemicals down the drain.
That is contrary advice, it seems.You think a second tank is a pain, but you advise a whole second system, tank, field, and all......Now that is a pain
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I don't think it's much more pain than what a 2nd septic tank would require with the separate plumbing for both cases (the OP was suggesting a tank for each floor so I'm interpertting separate systems/plumbing but may be wrong). In the gray water system you get something useful out of the 'waste' water and it doesn't need sludge pumping. Reducing the volume of water through the septic system will increase it's life.
"it doesn't need sludge pumping"Think again.The stuff that needs to be pumped is the non organic materials that do not decompose. Think of what comes out of your washing machine.Filler in the detergent
Grit that got washed out of the clothes, like sand.
Polyester fibres from clothing
Hair will decompose but takes a very long time.So the tank on a greywater system still needs pumping, just not as often.Typically in a two tank system, there is one field and two tanks in line before the field. When somebody may need or want a second tank like that, it is easier, and less expensive to install a filter trap or grease pit ahead of the tank instead of two tanks
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so the sludge from a gray water tank is as dangerous as the sludge from a septic tank?
I wouldn't drink either, especially considering what chemicals some folks use in their bath and laundry;)I was commenting less on danger than on the need to have it pumped in my reply to you. If I recall, you had said that a grey tank needs no pumping because of no sludge build up, but there definitely is sludge build in a grey tank. If you never pumped, eventually you would not have a tank - just a flow line.RE danger, I would go so far as to suggest that if you had a separate grey system, and you never put anything bad into the regular system, with an equal amt of flow/useage, that the grey tank would fill with sludge before the regular one did.'course that is in a perfect world. In the regular tank you DO get diapers, condoms, and TP wads, and grease, etc also.
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The tank size is not too big an issue. 1000 gallon should do fine. Check the perk by digging a 1' diameter hole 3' deep, fill with water and time the absorbtion.
Water is the big killer for drainfields. Try to plumb your washer, bathtubs and showers to drain to a gray-water system that will water the grass and shrubs. A kitchen disposal is a problem also because grease in the tank will kill aerobic activity also. Freeze meat scraps/bones and throw out with the garbage or feed'em to the animals.
Only toilets and BR sinks should go into it. Don't flush any kind of diapers or feminine hygine products either. Use Rid-X or a similar aerobic bacteria additive monthly, and pump the tank every five years.
I don't know where Markus is, but in many sates it is not legal to dispose of grey water that way. Any waste water has to go through a septic system whether it comes from a toilet or a shower.
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Well hell, he said he was "rural." If the cattle can shid on the ground, you oughta be able to run your wash water there too.
Since I'm on pier and beam, I have a plastic 55 gallon drum sitting under my back deck with a sump pump sitting on a concrete bottom in it. Run all the grey water in it and it gets pumped out to the grass.
No wastee, no wantee...
Well thank you all for your time and paitence.
All the information you have provided is fantastic,and now I have somemore idea as to what to expect.
Thank you again.
Mark
The whole state of Maine is ruralBut there is no place here legal to do separate greywater system without it being a full system.There are still a lot of diseases that can be spread through your greywater if not treated correctly, and with a separate grey tank, the next owner may not know a certain line is only intended for grey, so the addition for new bathroom gets linked to the wrong line...lots of ways for greywater to cause problems. How 'bout if you are the guy just downhill from the neighbor who dumps his greywater into the irrigation ditch you are wetting your carrots and potatoes with...
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I irrigated a 30'X60' garden with grey water for 20 years and have had no ill effects
The third eye comes in real handy in a crawl space....
Jeez, I'd hate to run into YOUR immune system in a dark alley...;)
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Old county agent out here told me once that grey water from washing machines and bathtubs was just as good as most well water...without the suds.
Any water you waste, you ain't gettin' back unless you pay for it, or catch it in a rain barrel...
"without the suds...."and the staff germs
and the athlete's foot fungii
and the herpes viruses
and the skid marks washed out of the underwear
and the skid marks that didn't quite make it that far
and God only knows what other parasites and hitchhikers...
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Boy, you sure know how to conjure up an image.....
blecchhhhh....Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
As long as you're not washing soiled diapers or other material with human waste present, the detergent AND the soil micororganisims AND the UV in the sunlight will take care of any pathogens present.
Many places use MINIMALLY TREATED sewage (not potable) or grey water to irrigate golf courses, plantings or other decorative vegetation.
Sludge from wastewater treatment plants is used widely to fertilize cattle feed, so you're eating it anyway when you eat a nice juicy steak....
Sure, once sluge has been treated down with bacteria, I have no problem using it for fertilizer. That is a long ways different from raw greywater tho. I lived at a place in CO where greywater was used to irrigate fruit trees, so I know how it can stink. No need to deny that.I took a google on this subject last night and found that experts around the world are divided on it, boiling down to the fact that yes the greywarer is ugly, but confirmation that it actually causes health problems is lacking. If the experts can't agree, I won't waste time arguing it.I'll play it safe for myself, thanks.But for purpoose of this discussion, the reason I mentioned it in the first place was, as I said, that many states do not allow it without treatment. The OP just needs to be aware that there is no good reason to plan such a system if it is not legal to install it.
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He should definitely check the health codes and see if it's legal there. I wasn't arguing the point, just lettiing him know problems that he may run into with a drainfield and ways to keep it from happening that nobody may tell him.
There's always the point that what may be legal may not be the smart choice...and vice versa...
They make us get grey water systems engineered here, which usually makes them prohibitively expensive. I wanted to treat my water with an open bulrush pond before using it for gardening, but the fees would have been around $5,000. It rains 10 months of the year here anyway so the water saving is sort of silly.
Considering that the traditional septic system in our area used to be an old car filled with drain rock and buried, I guess some regulation was necessary.
traditional septic system in our area used to be an old car filled with drain rock and buried
Great idea, if I ever need to redo the system at the cabin.......
greywater into the irrigation ditch you are wetting your carrots and potatoes with...
Last time I cleaned our septic tank it all went right onto the garden, great crop that year. Or, is dat wye eye sew weeerd?
I don't know what C3 means either.
But in most states, you will have a licensed soils engineer designing the system. He can size the tank appropriately.
You can always ask for a larger tank and it does help.
But in my experience, most problems come from people putting the wrong thing down the pipes or never pumping it clean. A system needs maintanance just like a car does
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Most problems arise from failure to maintain the system properly. Also, putting the wrong stuff down the drain can increase maintenance and cut system lifetime.
A larger septic tank increases the time between pumpings, but still you have to pump eventually. Multiple septic tanks doesn't make much sense, except perhaps for a very large house.
In some parts of the country they now require you to install two drainfields, with a switch so you can switch from one to the other annually. Presumably helps the drainfields "regenerate". Probably not a bad idea even if not required.
There are also a number of alternative drainfield schemes, using plastic domes, etc, and some new schemes that combine tank and drainfield -- a new twist on cesspools. You might want to call the local health board and ask what your various options are and what the inspectors like most.
With a big tank it would allow more time for the bacteria to eat the solids
As others have stated, there's a great deal of helpful information on the various types of systems, with drawings and full explanations, available on the Internet. Try researching your questions that way first.
Since you are still in the planning stage, consider having your gray water (laundry waste) go to a dry well instead of your septic tank. Your tank will thank you. Bleach and powdered detergents are hard on a septic system. Bleach can kill the bacteria that make the system work. Powdered detergents can form golfball sized clumps that clog-up things in the system. Good luck with your new house!
Check with the local health dept or whoever controls septic systems to see if a separate grey water system is permitted. In some areas they're encouraged, in some areas they're prohibited. Good justifications for both, based on local conditions.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Good point! Thanks.
Regarding gray water tanks: make sure that you can clean them out EASILY. Lint, buttons, and other solids can and will collect in the tank. (Don't ask me how I know.)
And remember also--this tank is a closed space. Deadly gasses can accumulate in them. Be sure that you can clean out the tank without putting ANY PART OF YOUR BODY into the tank. Yes, I know that arms are not hurt by most gasses you would run into, but if you follow that rule you will not be tempted to go just a little further.
There was a terrible accident just a few months ago near Superior, WI. FOUR PEOPLE died in a sewer cleanout. Apparently one person was overcome, and then the next person went in to rescue him and collapsed. Then the next, and finally the fourth!
http://www.fcs.uga.edu/pubs/current/C819-2.html
http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/
http://www.orenco.com/
There are a few links about septic systems and the leach fields. Read over a few of them.
I built my house last year and can tell you to make it simple. I did a 1500gal concrete tank and 500ft of infiltrator for the leach field. I made sure I contacted the septic contractor before and during excavation so that the site and slope needed for a gravity system was there.
I wont touch the greywater issue. Out here in the sticks its legal and encouraged by this county. I didnt do it cause I dont like mowing the yard and its another system to deal with. Not to mention the added cost of running two sets of drain systems in the house can quickly add up.
Get a contractor that knows what he is doing. Ask the neighbors who they used and if they are happy. That goes a long ways.
Keep it simple. The stuff still flows downhill. Grinders, pumps, multiple tanks, aerators, ect just add to the complexity of the system and just make life more complicated later.
If you have any of the above technology added to the tank, plan for the backup in case of a power outage. Three days without power might not be pleasant in the summer if the pump isnt working. Where will that tank overflow pipe exit at?
I'm not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I built my house last year and I have previously lived in a house with a non-functioning septic. You think your wife has been mad at you before? Wait till the septic pukes in the yard or worse in the house. (usually while you are out of town)
Heath
You mention what YOU DID.Did you have it engineered?Where I am going with this is that you only used 500' of infiltrator. That would be too much on some soils and woefully inadequate for others, and is a variable for the number of people living in the house too. Did not want somebody getting the idea that "Since this worked for Heath, it oughta do fine for me"
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I designed my own. We have real poor perk, so it had to be an evapotransporation system of 1500 sq ft. 30' X 50', four runs of 50' perf pipe in a 2' gravel bed with 6" of sandy loam overlay. At the end of each run I put an elbow and ran it up 1' above finished grade, and placed a perforated cap with screen on the end.
If the system gets overloaded with water (which it does in real heavy rain) I pull the caps and pump it dry in about an hour. The runoff goes into the woods about 100' away.
The vents also allow air to circulate down the laterals to prevent the "anarobic mat" that will kill a evapotransporation system.
sounds like a good one
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Sure did. I should have added that I guess. They did a soil sample with a perk test and printed up the results for the installer.
Thanks for the correction....
We have a lot of marginally perking soil in this area, so alternative systems have been the norm for a while. The approval for alternatives, and installation methods varies county to county.The latest replacement for the Infiltrator lines are EZ Flo...think Dino's in on that? We just had to put in a field with very limited access...trenches dug pretty much like infiltrators, no gravel, 3 corrugated pipes per trench, 100'/bedroom. Each 20' section of pipe is wrapped in a net filled with styrofoam-like peanuts. Trenches don't have to be straight, and the lines are light...and it's the same price as a gravel field.Two counties over, you can't use ez flo, in this county, you can't cut the netting...best to check with the local health dept. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Yup, like Piffin said it will differ from location to location. Sometimes it varies alot for one house to the next house over.
I built my house in the corner of the county. Literally across the street is a different county with different rules. And three houses up from me on my side of the street is the edge of a small town. Once again different rules.
And to make things interesting the excavator I used lives down the street and has dug all the houses and septics in the area for years. It was interesting to listen to him talk about the different soil and rock conditions just in the line of sight from my house. He could point out one house and say "hit bedrock 10ft down on his, but the next house over maybe 1500-200ft south didnt get close and we went down 20ft."
And like Piffin said what worked at my house wound not have worked across the street.
I've skimmed through most of the replies here and I'd say that the value of the advice is mixed. That's only my opinion, based on 20+ years of working with designing/regulating onsite sewage systems. I think Piffen's advice is good.
As far as sizing the tank, bigger can be at least marginally better, and for little additional cost, since the labor for installation will be pretty much the same. The tank size required by most regulations is twice the estimated daily flow of sewage. The tank needs to have enough volume so that flow of the sewage through the tank is very, very slow so that the solids and greases can separate. Larger tanks will handle peak flows (like from the big Christmas party) better than smaller tanks in the same system.
If I was designing a system for myself, if two-compartment tanks were not common in my area, I'd use two tanks in series. The extra compartment will produce cleaner final effluent.
Probably the most common contributor to early demise of septic systems is failure to pump solids from the tank on a routine basis (rule of thumb is about every five years). Too much water from plumbing leaks is a common cause of failure.
I think this is one area where rules of thumb are pretty much worthless. how often to pump is so proportional to the people using it and their lifestyle. With identical systems, one family might need pumping every year and another would need pumping almost never.The only way a novice is going to know for himself is to pump every year or two at first, and then adjust the frequency based on observations.
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I agree that it is better to get an idea of how often YOUR tank needs to be pumped, rather than rely on rules of thumb. On the other hand, if an owner isn't willing to do that, pumping every five years is better than not pumping at all.
Some of the talk about septic system design in this thread leads me to point out that systems should be designed based on state and local codes, the estimated sewage flow from the house, and the site conditions on the particular lot. They really should be designed by someone who is qualified and experienced in doing so.
That doesn't mean the advice here is necessarily bad; in fact, I think some of it is very, very good. But to put it into perspective, I wouldn't blindly follow advice I received from a septic system installer about sizing floor joists, and I wouldn't assume that if 2 x 6 rafters were good enough for one house, all houses can use 2 x 6 rafters.
Here, the state recommends every year or two.I think that is excessive in most circumstances, but I was in a rental awhile back that needed to be pumped every year at a minimum.I also found 2-3 years to be too long when I had a teen daughter at home and lots of all girl sleepovers.
When we pumped after that period of two years plus, there was such a TP damn, you probably could have walked on it.
Why do they think they need half a roll to wipe?
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