Hi everyone. Today I finished doing a small kitchen install that I built for a contractor on one of his jobs. I was clear about what he was getting for his money and it did not include kitchen handles due to a very limited budget. In the end the kitchen didn’t make me any money because I thought I would help him out of a jam giving him a good deal on it.
so I pack up my stuff and ask if I could be paid the final amount and he started telling me that without handles it is not finished, and he wont pay till its finished. well by this point I had had enough of his crap and said I was going back out to the truck to get my tools so I could remove the cabinets I had installed and i told him that when he calls me back to put them back in, the price would be doubling because I would have to do it twice.
Anyway, long story short he did finally pay me but said that if I had taken them out he would have won the law suit because that would have been theft, even though I had not been paid in full. Is he correct or am I correct in saying if you have not paid for it its still mine, and I can do whatever I want with it?
Replies
Once it's fitted it's his, whether he paid for it or not
John
that doesnt make sense at all. is there any protection for situations like this, or is this just a gamble we have to take?
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Yes. Clearly written contract."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
that doesnt make sense at all
Well it does make sense if you think about it like this- Police are called to a house where a contractor is removing the new front door against the home owner's will. What are they to do?
If it was in general legal for fitted goods to be removed by an unpaid contractor, the HO would have to prove to the police that he had paid before they would stop the contractor removing the door. Bit awkward, to say the least. As the law stands now, all they have to see is that property is being interfered with against the will of the home owner. They don't need to see receipts, contracts etc.
In the US the contractor can file a lien, in the UK we don't even have that, which is why I make sure I've been at least 90% paid before I fit anything
John
In my state, filing a mechanics lien is a very simple process. No attorney needed. Matt
It's only "his" if he paid for the cab.s in the first place....and even then he's liable via a mechanics lien...just how do you figure he can claim they're his?
in the UK tghe law states something along the lines of:
once something is built, or fitted into place, whether it has been paid for or not it does not belong to the contrator.i think that's right
We have something like, fit the thing, customer tries to screw you, cant remove it.
Have to sue them for the money, costs all that sorta nonsense. I heard about a carpenter who had installed a nice new front door. HO wouldnt pay. The parasite came home one day to find............No front door.
I woulda been laffing so hard removing it I probably would have still been there when HO got back. :-)
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
some one i know took the door off a shopfront to take it back to the workshop 'for adjustment' in a similar situation
Possession is 9/10's of the law. But, if you took them out, they would be yours. If some one is that shady, don't even blink your eyes. I am working for a real PITA , job is 80% done, has paid me $1,200 of a 3 part contract. Asked her for $2000 today, she left the house about 2 1/2 hours ago. I left her house at 4:40. She just called and asked Where are you? Duh, I've been on the job since 8:00, no lunch or breaks. Except to give her an itemized bill which she requested. These 10% of homeowners really suck. Good Luck Jim Z
PS. I would have ripped the suckers out!
i had every intention of ripping them out, thats the only reason he paid me. i talked to the homeowner later about it and they agreed that i had done way more than i should have to accomidate them and the contractor.
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Gecko - I don't know the law in your jurisdiction, but every place that I've seen this in 20 years, it's his. Typically, once it's installed, it's part of his property. Yours might be the one area that's different, but I wouldn't expect it. I've even seen situations where material was delivered to the site and the local constabulary said that it belonged to the owner when the builder walked off/was thrown off the job. The cops down here tend to get a little heavy handed whether they are right or wrong, and I don't know if a judge would agree on the uninstalled material. (For kicks and jollies, why not call the local precinct, explain the situation and ask them? Can't hurt.)
Thanks hammerclaw. I might just do that to find out. I have in the past torn things right back out after an install, and so has a friend of mine who is a cabinet maker. Regardless of the law, i would still do it just for the principle of it.
This guy is a clown, he still owes me about 8 grand for another job, which I know he wont pay. There is little doubt that he will be out of business all together shortly, and he has only been in the business for less than a year. I did get paid, and its the start of a long weekend, so I'm happy now!
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It seem to me you need to talk to YOUR attorney. The question that come to mind is, who owns the material after it is deliver and installed. How to file a mechanics lien. How to turn the lien into money to settled the det, court? How to make a mess of his credit ratting?
he still owes me about 8 grand for another job, which I know he wont pay.
So tell us again why you decided to work for the guy essentially free when he already owed you 8 large? Doesn't make sense to me. He's the last guy I would do anything for if he owed me that much.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Are the cabinets really installed though?????!! They are missing handles after all..........
-m2akita
This guy is a clown, he still owes me about 8 grand for another job, which I know he wont pay
I'm curious as to what you were thinking about when you decided to do this job for him when he owes you 8 grand and you know he wont pay.
Some builders who owe guys money will say to them that if they do the next job they will pay them the money they owe them for the other job. Sometimes they get paid and sometimes they don't.
I doesn't sound like that in your case because it sounds like you knew you weren't seeing the 8 grand before you took this job. Or did you realize you wouldn't get paid the 8 grand after you did this job?
Joe Carola
you are correct, I only realized that I wouldn't be seeing the 8 grand after I finished this job. I suppose there is a possibility of seeing it, but I doubt he will pay up - especially after yesterdays scene. the motivation for finishing this job was really the homeowners who were very nice and asked me to do it despite the problems. regardless of the GC I think I will get more work from the homeowner down the road, plus some good word of mouth advertising from them.
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It's my understanding that once you leave the job with the cabinets in his house they are his. You haven't lefted yet so they are not his. You should have taken them out with a chain saw.
Bear
Gecko, you need to have written contracts with everyone (you do, right?). On your contract, in smallish print if you like, state that any materials you install are your property until paid for and that you have the right to A.) lien and B.) remove said property if not paid. This is common practice all over this country-- with well drillers. HO or GC signs the contract, then doesn't pay, property is yours, lawsuit or not. Take it away. Well drillers routinely return to the property and pull the pump AND the casings if not paid. SO can you.
Regardless of a contract, however, if you'd have pulled your cabs and the GC brought a 'lawsuit' against you, he most certainly would not have won anything. What were his damages? You had the damages. No judge would have saw it in his favor.
But in the future, have a contract specifying exactly what labor you are performing and what product you'll be supplying...and that the product is yours until paid. Just don't leave the premises until paid if you intend to remove your cabs. Remain there with your tools on site; contract in hand and calmly begin unscrewing each one while he calls the cops. It's not a crime, you're contractually protected and a cop who has even the simplest grasp of his alleged job will know it's a "civil matter" and promptly leave.
What were his damages?
The gc could have claimed that, by rfemoving the cabinets, the sub prevented the gc from completing the project and getting paid in a timely manner. And that affected his cash flow and payments to suppliers etc. Not necessarily true, but it would have required the sub to go through a lot of legal steps to prove his point.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Signed contract by both parties. I'll say it again. Signed contract by both parties. Everything down to the last sweep of the broom should be included in the contract so there's no mistaking anything. Then the law is on your side. It wouldn't have been on your side had you ripped them out. There are claims court for all this. It's a PITA, but that's the way it's done.
Ask around for credentials before you work for jerks like this. Avoid them. They abound.
As others have pointed out, this is a legal question.
Would you ask a bunch of lawyers a construction question?
For the most part, these sorts of questions can be resolved under our concept of freedom of contract: "private law."
If you don't specify (and sometimes seemingly "normal" innocent language can have specific legal meanings) then the law of the state regarding sales and personal property will be applied as the "default" law.
Stand tough!
That being said don't get yourself in a legal pickle over the occasional customer who wants to rip you off. No matter how many contracts you have drawn up and signed that won't guarantee you anything. Not to say a good contract doesn't have its place, but if someone doesn't want to pay its going to drag on no matter what signed affidavit you have.
Glad you got your money!
Mark
After all the BS, and some just love to see how far they can push, you handled the situation well.
I think the "deals" for this arse just ended.