Ok, you’re in HD or Lowes in the screw & nail aisle when you overhear Larry Homeowner ask Clerk Helen what kind of screws he should use to hang a shelf. Larry is holding his brand new B&D Firestorm cordless drill. Helen, of course, recommends a box of 1-1/4″ #6 sheetrock screws. What do you do? It’s Saturday afternoon and Larry has to have the shelf hung in time for the wife’s Tupperware party that night. No time to place an order from McFeeleys, never mind that Larry is obviously not into quality and only needs a handful. What screw, that they would have on hand, would you recommend? Or since it’s Larry and Helen do you walk away smiling, muttering something about them deserving each other?
Replies
Geez, what's wrong with drywall screws? Norm used to use them extensively for furniture. Funny, just tonight I just noticed that the pulldown attic stairs were put in with nothing but.
I guess in a pinch I might recommend coated deck screws. HD sells lotsa sizes and they're pretty tough.
-Pete
As rez would say, ROAR!
I need more details here to formulate a recomendation.What kind of mood am I in that day? What kind of body english am I getting from Larry and Helen (BTW, I think I missed the Battle over Helen of troy) ?? More important, Do I recognoze them as Larry and Hellen??? And even more important yet - does Larry recognize me???????????
Is lightweight Tupperware the only thing to be stored on the shelf or will it be filled with burped lettuce or unburped cabbage?
Come on man. You know better than to post a Q like that with inadequate details! I've already used up my psychic powers for this month.
Double Roar!!
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
The local lumberyard guy says to use drywall screws to hang cabinets. He got a bit offended when I pointed out that the cabinet manufacturer specifically excluded drywall screws as adequate and indicated that warranty difficulties could result. He claims that is just a way to squirm out of warranty claims since "everybody uses drywall screws". He further insisted that he has no knowledge of a cabinet hung with drywall screws ever falling.
On the other hand, I was using a wood screw (#10 I think) purchased at that lumberyard to screw the face frames together. Pre-drilled the holes and screwed it in by hand with a phillips screwdriver and the screw snapped in two just before it was set. (ok, I didn't use a lubricant). If the wood screws are that bad, the drywall screws don't look so bad in comparison????
Rich Beckman
Somehow during the DWS controversy I had forgotten a show I saw a while back. One of those judge shows you have playing in the background when the defended is a contractor in a city somewhere. He is accused of shoddy workmanship for faultily placing...guess what... upper kitchen cabinets in a ladies apartment. Seems she put her dishes in the cabinets and they fell down. His defense dealt with the poundage max from the manufacturer- yadayada- and said he hung his weight on the cabinets after he finished and all was well. I don't recall the final outcome but the point I'm making is using improper hanging can hang you. I don't know if the guy used drywall screws that snapped when she put stacks of her half inch thick soupkitchen plates up there or if he thought he could get away with anchors in the drywall, but I ain't gonna use no mo cheep screws because...
half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations. Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
Just to be clear, I don't use drywall screws to hang cabinets.
Rich Beckman
Another thing to look for when buying screws from a box store is the country of origin. Avoid any metal items, not just screws, from the People's Republic of China. I've had enough of them break that I don't buy things that say China on them any more. They just don't get the metallurgy right.
-- J.S.
I've found Deckmate coated screws to be very tough. They are the green and tan coated type with the philips + square tip, "Patented Phillips Square Drive System"
I use them as an all purpose screw and have never had a problem. For hanging cabinets I do like to use McFeely's screws. But I wouldn't worry a bit if I used the deckmate.
Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
I also have had very good results with Deckmate screws -- have used several hundred pounds of them over the last few years. I don't think I have broken one yet and the drive system works very well. I only wish they came in a little wider range of sizes. All that I have found range from 1 5/8 # 7's to 3 1/2 # 9's.
deblacksmith
I also agree on the Deckmate screws. I've used a few hundred pounds of them over the last few years and haven't had any stripouts or snaps. I installed a door the other day and didn't have any Deckmate's in the truck so I had to pick up some of Ma & Pa's deck screws. After snapping 2 and stripping a few more I gave up and just tack it in with the scrappy screws until I got the Deckmates. They went in without a problem. As far as tensile strength for cabinets and Larry's shelf, I think that is a test that our favorite publication should help us with. Andy, feel free to step in here.
You're right on the limited size, but that's why Mcfeely's send me a catalouge :) I just realized that I've bought six or seven of the large boxes, and I've never once used them on a deck. Just a little irony on a grey tuesday morning.
As for the rest of HD inventory, I really don't use anything else they sell (screw wise) I can't afford to buy brass wood screws 25 at a time, and I'm not impressed with the quality anyway. My HD doesn't sell trim head screws in a large box so there out there too. I do use their drywall screws, but oddly enough I use them for drywall.
If I had been standing there I would have handed him a 1lb box of 2" deckmates, probably the tan variety. (I'd use 3" but I have a through wall electrical detector) All this is assuming that he could and would know to actually screw the shelf supports to a stud. It might be safer to give him a box of big toggle bolts, or better yet,
my card. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Having worked in the steel industry for a while, I found that both screw and nail stock originates from slack inventory and rejects from other grade product. That means you can get a run of screws or nails that are outstanding and another run where they can be weak. Coated screws can be weakened by the coating process - most definitely by hot dipping and not so much by electroplating.
Most of the folks are confusing screws breaking by twisting off as they are screwed in. However screws in cabinets present a shear action as the cabinets try to slide down the wall shearing through the diameter of the screw. Hence small diameter screws could be a problem unless you use lots of them. I've always opted for a quarter inch (and sometimes five sixteenths inch) lag screws - predrill and shoot in with a nut runner or a socket set. No breakage, lags are readily available and no lingering concerns about cabinets coming loose. A little extra effort -yes - but a quality job.
What's up with the screw manufactures not printing the country of origin. They say May be made in Mexico, Korea, China, Taiwan, India etc. I want to know where they are from. American is getting harder to find anymore. And I'm sick of imposter screws. Some of them are pure trash.
Ya, didn't think you did. I was just sharing a thought. Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
Has anyone ever seen cabinets fall off a wall when drywall screws were used, because of the screws?
Ask Piffin. I think maybe he's got a nasty habit of using those things on his high end cabinets. Tried to talk him out of it but the guy won't listen to reason. Let the thunder crack and the waves roar.
We're going on.
You snapped a #10 woodscrew by hand? Little tikes screw set?
I vote for the Deckmates too, have used tons of them, (cabinets, railings, decks, exterior trim, picture hanging, coffee stirrers) and have snapped the heads off of everything else. If you're in a good mood, go ahead and cut into the conversation and tell them your experience. yes, they cost $1.50 more per pound; but that is cheaper than a single smashed dish. Who knows, they might listen.
D&L
"You snapped a #10 woodscrew by hand?"
Yup.
"Little tikes screw set?"
Actually, I wish it were. I should check tomorrow to see the county of origin on the screws.
Rich Beckman
Maybe you just have big hands.
I once worked with a Canuk Frenchy who hada poweerful grip from working mines and drill steel and shovels. If he put the lid back on my thermos, I could not get it off without a plumbers wench.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
"Maybe you just have big hands."
LOL! Nope. Screws were made in China. Guess I need to start ordering screws from the internet.
Rich Beckman
> LOL! Nope. Screws were made in China.
Aha! See message #11.
-- J.S.
I guess my question is...do you use deck screws, or those not-much-better shiny bright zinc screws, or what?I would probably lean toward expensive deck screws, hoping that you get what you pay for.
I definitely screw it up good
Meaning that I usae structural screws and not SR screws for holding up anything other than SR or banks.
I thought you were talking about interfering with someone elses decision process uninvited and not the screws themselves. It was fun screwing around with it.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
To be honest, I think the deck screws are weaker that the sheetrock screws I use. I routinely snap the heads off the galvanized deck screws or brass coated ones. I have yet to pop the head off of a fine thread drywall screw. Perhaps the fine thread ones are of better quality? I use the grabber drywall screws and they seem to be stronger than any other type of screw (wood, deck, etc) I can get at HD or Lowes. That's just me 'pinion though.
I was talking about the Deck-Mate coated deck screws. They're expensive, but I've found them to be pretty useful at times. I agree it's really easy to twist the head off a regular galvanized deck screw.
The original question was "what would you recommend out of HD's inventory?" As others point out, Deck-Mates wouldn't necessarily be the first choice for hanging a cabinet given a wider selection.
Pete
What's wrong with good old wood screws. I believe it's what the manufactureres recommend for projects like cabinets, large windows (bays) etc.... The Dumpo has them in plastic "boxes" of 50. I never had any snap (though i did bend a few when I leaned on it the wrong way when only about 1/2 in of thread had started).
Richie
Does HD have #10 drywall screws? The shank is the issue for strength. Some of the std drywall screws are pretty thin I'd even consider using Lag screws with a socket on the drill to drive em home. Not pretty but it would keep it out of Judge Judy's court.
Drywall screws have no shear stregnth. That's why many cabinet manufacturers specifically warn against them. Try the torx head/ chisel tip jobbies. They're gold, I don't recall their brand name, and they're expensive. But they will suck anything down, drive through any wood without a pilot hole, and you can hardly cut them off with a sawzall.
Drywall screws, on the otherhand, can easily be sheared off with the tap of a hammer.
BTW, I once saw a new porch roof built over a deck, whose rafters hung on a ledger on joist hangers. The joist hangers were fastened to the ledger with black drywall screws. Hence, the entire roof WITH AN ALASKAN SNOW LOAD, was hanging on a handful of drywall screws. I still wonder if it made it through the first winter intact.
Thanks for all the responses. This was not a test, but if it was, only one person would have passed. The original question was tied to the products that could be found on the shelf at HD/Lowes, and the reason for the question was because sometimes I find myself in need of a screw and that's the only source available (I know, prior planning etc). Also, the same respondent make the suggestion to offer his/your business card, a source for possible new business...maybe instead of hanging a cabinet you could sell them on a remodel...
The last cabs I hung I used the cabinent screws from McFeelys. A tad pricey but if it saves me the pain and agony and frustration of a failure its well worth it. I think theyre #10 X 3" plus they got painted heads so they will blend in..sort of. I alway felt not to scimp on things like fasteners or materials in general. I get the best the budget allows for. As for what to do when someone at the the Home Dildo or Blowes gives out bad info or info I disagree with.... Cant really answer that other than well Ive learned my lesson about the place. Its one of those things a person has to learn on their own I guess.
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
Edited 11/19/2002 10:23:53 AM ET by Ron Teti
You guys made a point, and as I was in the process of ordering some gutter screws from Mc Feelies anyway, I got the 1200 piece sampler plus some 4" #10's. I do use drywall screws as a low cost low strength hanger, but have been using the SPAX (sp?) screws from HD for doors, window hardware, etc.
I figured this was necessary anyway as I found about 80 ft of superstrut and 60 shelf hangers tossed in the dumpster from a remodel, so I may as well hang them right in my garage.
Even though I no longer have free weekends to climb, I will be using my ropes and harness to repair the 2nd floor gutter, which is 2 ft off the side, 2 ft off the back, and 20 ft above the concrete driveway. At least it is a shallow slope roof, probably 8/20. I figure the utility chimney will be an acceptable anchor. ;-)
Yeah. Make sure you put an old mattress on the driveway below to give you some extra peace of mind!
You also got me thinking. Is the net the only place you can buy decent screws anymore? Every supply house I visit (and I admit some are home centers) seams to have an increasingly crummy supply of screws and other fasteners. Do you see this in other parts as well?
FWIW
I've gotten cabinet screws at Lowes, they've been in the specialty parts cabinets, better than drywall screws or cheap wood screws but I'm not shure how they compare to McFeelys Mike
It's O.k. to think out of the box, Just don't walk off of the plank!
Thanks ElCid72, but a bunch of other guys recomended the deckmate screws that home depot carries too.
I'm sure some of you thought, "why give him your card?, I don't have time to be hangning one cabinet at a time."
You are right, neither do I, but I have gotten so many calls for larger work after giving a little free advise with my card attached that I'll never be slack. That homeowner may be shopping around for a contractor to remodel their kitchen (true story) and haven't had anyone return their call. And there I am with my card and a smile.
It's good buisiness.
> Make sure you put an old mattress on the driveway below to give you some extra peace of mind!
Cardboard boxes are what the stunt guys used to use -- probably some still do in low budget stuff. The mattress doesn't give you enough distance and time for the deceleration. Putting it on top of the boxes might help, though. Today a short fall like that would probably be done onto a big air bag.
-- J.S.
When I was a young kid, I jumped off the top of a garage onto a mattress. That is one of many unfavorable memories from my childhood. Mattresses do not make any difference at all when you land on them from 18 feet up. Kinda busted me up a bit, but the worse part was getting the wind knocked out of me and thinking I would never be able to breathe another breath. That was freaky.
When I was building cabinets in Texas we always used 3" drywall screws to hang the cabinets, and every cabinetmaker I knew was doing the same (with the exception of one who used nails). As long as they are secured to the studs, I would have a hard time believing they could fail, but I could be wrong (it's happened before)
depending on the type of wall, and stud location,#10 coarse thread, usually works in most cases.... however to be safe, and simple.... a drywall screw anchor first then the screw that comes with it....good luck... Mark
I have had good success with the torq screws from true value hardware. They have a split point so that predrilling is not necessary. They do not cam out like the phillips and square drive. I have hung doors and cabinets with them and found them to be incredibly strong. Make sure to drive your screws into studs and all will be well.
If I can break a DW screw with a DW gun while installing drywall and I can break a deck screw by hand (with my wimpy hands) then there is definitely something wrong with the quality control on screws.
Perhaps John is right about crappy imports, but I think there is just too much leeway for manufacturers.
If we can grade lumber for structural strength, maybe it's time to see a properly graded screw (nails too!). I'd love to see some third party rating for shear strength, pull-out and resistance to stripping.
There is a screw article coming up soon in FHB.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
I didn't think FHB was THAT kind of magazine!!!!!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Good one...<g>
Yeah Piffin, I wonder if you are clairvoyant or just optimistic?
I do look forward to the rating system!
Don't be acussing me of being Clair's Voyuer..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius
Ok, you're in HD or Lowes in the screw & nail aisle when you overhear Larry Homeowner ask Clerk Helen what kind of screws he should use to hang a shelf.
That's why I don't go there any more than is absolutely necessary; I was spending too much time tracking down Larry to explain what was wrong and what was missing from Helen's recommendations.
Drywall screws to attach cabinets?
Maybe they'd have sufficient strength if you used a drywail spacing schedule.
I call them out as a deficiency when I see them during home inspections and I'd never use them for that pupose myself.
(And I call out deck screws used in joist hangers - which I see a lot of!)
________________________________________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Drywall screws are stronger than drywall. When you demo some drywall, note that the screws generally remain undamaged after you've kicked the rock off the studs. Making drywall screws any stronger than they are would be a waste of money for their intended purpose. They're only a problem when they get used for more demanding applications than holding up drywall.
-- J.S.
Hey B.W. I've asked before and didn't get any comment from any one so looks like I'll pick your brain. Have you ever saw or heard of cabinets falling off a wall due to drywall screw failure? I haven't and wondered with your vast experience in inspection if you had ? Thanks [thats supposed to be seen instead of saw, dumb puter]