“Shiners” – pull ’em or leave ’em?
Oak River Mike
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So do you guys oull out your shiners or leave them there?
In case its a regional term by “shiners” I mean nails through the sheathing (roof decking) that missed the trussrafter.
Replies
Do you use a nailgun and do you snap lines? I've found that if you don't snap lines cerefully where they are supposed to be, you miss a lot. With nailguns you don't want to stop and pull anything.
Will Rogers
I'm curious as to how many framers snap lines when they are nailing off sheathing. On a large roof it represents quite a bit of additional time. I don't find it that hard to follow 2"x material over a 4 foot length with a nailgun. You can hear or feel if there is the odd miss.
I do pull shiners because a) I'm sometimes a bit obsessive and b) when people see shiners they assume you didn't go back and nail off beside it and that makes them nervous.
I'm curious as to how many framers snap lines when>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Never!!!!!!!!!!
I might of come off a bit prudish with my post. I have done it both ways. I have seen guys get carried away with nail guns and miss quite a bit. It just makes more work in the end, you waste nails, and it looks sloppy."There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
" I have seen guys get carried away with nail guns and miss quite a bit"
Porcupines. The top of my head bears several scars from them. Leaving them in the attic of a house is a quick way to make the new homeowner uneasy.
Me, too.
Found this week shiners in an attic actually being a help. Trying to install Styrofoam egg crate soffit baffles in a low clearance area on a windy day. The shiners did a better job of holding them in place than the staples did. Get one staple in, try to hit the other edge and the baffle would rip from the first staple. Using the shiners just shove it in place and they pop through holding the baffle in place. Not sure if I was more pissed by fighting the baffles to stay with staples or when I'd catch a knuckle or scalp on a shiner so verdict is still out for me an leaving them or not.
When nailing off I don't snap lines...instead I hook my tape as I go so that the edge of the tape is even with the edge of the rafter at the top of the sheet, pull it down to the bottom edge of the sheet and hold it down with my thumb even with the edge of the rafter there, and then shoot my nails an eyeballed 3/4" in from the edge of the tape. With a gun in one hand, tape in the other, it goes really fast...hook, pull, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam....hook, pull, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. As a bonus, it's easy to follow a specific nailing schedule because the numbers on the tape are right there. I use this technique for sheathing walls too.Incidently, I can buy 2 1/4" galvanized, ring shank, 8D, wire bound nails for my Hitachi coil siding nailers pretty cheaply and so these are my sheathing guns of choice...nice and light, and they hold a ton of nails.
Pull 'em.
(1) because that's how I make sur we go back and nail areas that did miss on the first go round and
(2) because I have an uneasy feeling that it may be possible for them to loosen up and back themselves out up into the asphalt shingles.
(3)just one less reason for inspectors to be critical.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pull 'em.
Leave them. You can tell when you miss if you do much nailing, and can immediatly renail. They harm nothing!
Sorry Dave, I meant that to be addressed to all. oopps
Edited 5/30/2009 6:28 pm ET by frammer52
They certainly do no harm. But I think they look bad/unprofessional, even for the period of time that they can still be seen.Edit- Of course, if you have very many showing, perhaps it IS time to snap lines, slow down, or get someone else to nail off.
Edited 5/30/2009 6:39 pm by kenhill3
Of course, if you have very many showing, perhaps it IS time to snap lines, slow down, or get someone else to nail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with that!!!!
My job, pullem.
Your job. leave em>G<
Thought you were retired ???!!!!
I still pop in if Oak river Mike needs me!!!!!!
I usually pull them after they have served a purpose......
I knock them back from the inside and use the protruding nails as a guide for the "corrections", then pull them.
Have a 1/4" tapered pin punch that I use as an overgrown nailset - works well for knocking them back.
Jim
If ya don't yank em, at least bend em over so some poor schmuck like me don't get stabbed in the head working in the attic.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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I pull any visible nail for 2 reasons
1)looks
2)so smucks like you don't get snagged!
;)~
Yeah, I have a hard enough time dealing with roofing nail punctures in my melon.
So it looks as if the majority say "Pull em". I think the same way. My framer just hates me as I asked him to do it today and I gave him my list of reasons.
He grumbled but said he would....
Our framer doesn't.
>> Our framer doesn't.<<
Doesn't do what?
Pull them or grumble?
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Make whoever missed pull em, helps in the learning process. Oh, your poor framer has to clean up his mess. Being in a hot attic with fiberglass. squeezing into some tight corner is bad enough w/out puncture wounds.
But once the shingles are in, aren't there tons of nails protruding through the sheathing underside?Bill
not generally as long.
He just got demoted from flunky.
LOL! What's his title now? flunky-wannabe?
How do you do that? I suppose if you tried hard enough, you could maybe get your nose or chin on one of 'em... But my head doesn't have square enough corners to get in there.Now, roofing nails? Oh, man, I've had some good ones! I hate it when all of a southern you can't see, because your safety glasses are covered with blood.AitchKay
Cant get this guy who works for sometimes to understand about keeping nail gun square to surface cuz most his shiners or holidays are on line but scoot off side of member.
Just had him drive back up about 50 in subfloor from crawl space because i dont want to be plumbing and pulling wire across all those meathooks.
When I was an exterminater I'd be in many attics killing wasps and stuff, and old roof jack nails, and way off the mark shiners WILL stab you. Trust me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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For sheathing and floors I pull 'em, then re-nail by hand with the same nail if it ain't all bent to snot. Early training by my old man: Be neat and don't waste materials. Good habits die hard, especially when they were driven into one's thick skull by the old man's eagle-eye and quick backhand....
Oh, yeah--I always snap lines. Sheathing, subfloor, gyprock, any sheet goods.Makes life that much easier. I just love that rapid-rewind chalkbox I got a Calvin's Fest a few years ago....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Hey there D
Hope all is well with you.
I started laughing about the post re. bouncing your head off of the shiners when working in the attic and then realized it was your post.
GEEZ Haven't done that a hundred times!!!
Hope these crazy times are treating you aok!!
Jeff in PA
Geeeze , where you been hiding?
Doing OK here...just deal with the crazy as it comes...cars, wife, work...same ol, same ol.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I have not logged on in a long time
Real busy with work but profit margins are real lean so i am working like 60+ hours and barely making any money and playing catch up from winter so i got the dogs on both sides chomping. Then we have 1st communion, high school graduation, and all sorts of silly stuff that takes a lot of time so I just pretty much work and sleep.
Not the funnest part of my life but doing what a gotta do right now.
Still havin fun but not the funnest!!
Profit margin? What a concept. I'll have to try that someday.
I've been swimming just a bit faster than the sharks and thats about all I can muster up.
Hang in there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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A "pea shooter" makes it easier -- it's a cylindrical punch inside a tube. You slip the tube over the shiner, and give it one whack. No pecking at an ever-bending nail, chasing it around in circles!
I actually have a commercially-made one -- I think it's a Slant Fin. It's about a foot long, it has a rubber grip sleeve, and a head slightly larger than the tube.
My only complaint with it was that the punch slid too freely, and could fall out. A few whacks with a hammer fixed that.
Most guys use home-made versions. With some of these, the punch is heavy enough that you don't have to use a hammer. That usually means they're longer -- 2 to 2 1/2 feet.
AitchKay
AitchKay
I pull 'em. Usually have a flunkie mark 16" layout on every sheet with a T-square b/4 it hits the rafters/trusses. Adds a whole 30 seconds per sheet to the process. Doubt that extra step will run me into bankruptcy anytime soon, but it sure saves on aggrivation later on. Works so well I don't even need to check the underside.
BTW, the only thing that looks more unprofessional than a missed nail, is one that's bent over flat. Ugh!!!
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
"Usually have a flunkie mark 16" layout on every sheet." A bit harsh and degrading term for someone who works for/with you and is in the position of making money for you.
Don't ya'll have OSB with lines on it already?
Puleeeeze!!!
You think I don't know the difference b/tween a flunkie and a skilled operator.
Flunkies don't make me $$$, they simply make my job-site life marginally easier.
Marginally might even be too generous.
Flunkie:
Can't read a tape, roll up an extension cord properly, can't remember how to re-pack the gang-box like it was waaaaay back in the am, can't chuck a bit into a drill, can't swing a hammer using the entire handle, etc., etc.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
David- Sorry, did not mean to rub you the wrong way or get your dander up! I must say that 'skilled operators' are what I am generally used to. Your point is valid- I have also worked with some people who are for all purposes worthless on the job, alarmingly incapable of performing even a basic task at hand. What a waste of everyone's time and money. Perhaps you are not in control of who gets hired? Again, apologies, my bad. Assumptions on my part.
Edited 5/31/2009 11:27 pm by kenhill3
Same here Ken, you just had the misfortune of catching me wrong last night. Still feel the same way about deadwood help, but probably coulda expressed myself a little gentler.
I only ever use one guy, rarely the same guy, and never a skilled guy. I'm so disillusioned with the "skilled carps" I've run across in the last decade, that it ain't worth the trouble or frustration to me or them.
I'm tough to work with on MY jobs (total team player on someone elses), so I stay small and micro-manage to my heart's content. One way--mine! Min. wage guy don't like that, fine, burn rubber pal.
Sorry, it is what it is.
PeaceThe best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Thanks. No worries.Peace to ya, too.Ken
And it kills me that they forget everything that you teach them the day before. You have to retrain them every day.
T-Squares. You wouldn't believe how much time they will save you. You don't have to find the sheathing nails for finish work.
I tacked up a board yesterday Told this guy to finish nailing it about every 8". Going to get a cuppa, and saw him getting ready to put his first nail about 20". Told him to stop, repeated 8" verbal instruction with a hand spacing visual demo. He's nodding, saying OK. Stayed to watch him start. Damn if he didn't want to go back to the same pont I had just explained was wrong. Repeated 8"! Told him what he had was 20, 22. Got a tape; showed him the tape said right about 21". Marked out 8". Told him it didn't have to be exact. Went and got my coffee. Realized I hadn't heard the nail gun. Nah, he can't be... Yep he's marking it off with the tape, slowly at that. Walked up grabbed the gun, muttering to myself about which one of us was stupider, bam, bam, bam,... Done. "Go move that stuff over there."He just got demoted from flunky. When did political correctness hit the jobsite besides when the customer's around or the other guy is mean, nasty and holding a potential weapon?
Glad to see I'm not the only one. IF he's got a license, you can send HIM for the cuppa joe and nail it right (otherwise known as: my way!).
Sometimes you just gotta st back and realize that everybody's simply doing the best they can with a given skill set.
Sure as he!! is frustrating though! The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
David,
Isn't that the truth?!
I see things each day that I think "Why did they do or not do that?" then I have to step back and debate if its me being too picky or them being too much of a slacker....sometimes its both!
Mike
Speaking of helpers, Dean is DESPARATE for work, anything, he is an Electrician, but is handy in other stuff...could ya maybe think about it?
I hate to mention it, but he got shafted by a guy by working and then the guy stiffed him, and I can't offer much help $$$ wise or work wise, and they are on thin ice.
Thanks for thinking about it even if its not an option.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Can't do it DK. Semi-retired @ the moment. Promised DF that I would finish ALL our projects b/4 taking any paying jobs this year. Probably be next year b/4 I do anything else of significance.
Unfortunately, I have NO labor built into those jobs.
BTW, Charlotte CL is full of sparky ads on a daily basis; don't let him BS you.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Yeah, I figured it was worth a shot.
He needs to get his butt motivated, before I get down there and start kicking.
Thnx.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Some debate as to roof sheathing, no debate when it comes to floors: shiners are a big cause of squeaks.
AitchKay
I've always heard them called "air nails".
By the time the shingle nails are driven, how many people will even think to look to see if there's a difference between them and the shiners?.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
By the time the shingle nails are driven, how many people will even think to look to see if there's a difference between them and the shiners?.
The attorneys who investigate claims of shoddy construction that I often do consulting work for!
As far as I know all shiners have to go. No approval on framing if the inspectors see shiners.
Yeah, thats the way it is here too. Just some of these guys think that if it got overlooked on their last job its OK.
I mean, just be more careful when shooting them! And yeah, if I shoot a whole roof, I probably shoot 10-20 shiners myself but thats part of the job. And I pull them myself.
I just get annoyed when guys don't want to do the right thing and say its how they always do it.