I renovated an 1898 clapboard house several years ago down to the studs. I insulated with wet-blown cellulose. I did not install a vapor barrier because I was told that the insulation would not sag like fiberglass if water vapor condensed on it. However, I am having problems keeping paint on the clapboard. The east and west walls are peeling badly on old clapboard but not much at all on the new clapboard on the east side. The north side, old clapboard, is not bad either, nor are the south walls, old clapboard under porch cover, or new clapboard not under porch cover. Sherwin Williams claims that since the paint (Duration) is coming off to bare wood, that implies a water vapor problem and want me to pry open the clapboards to ventilate. I don’t like the idea. I’m thinking that perhaps it has something to do with painting in direct sun since the north side and the porch-covered clapboard on the south side is mostly holding paint. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about fireplaces and ask questions about sharpening hand tools, easier wiring upgrades, and fixing cedar siding.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
You used a rather odd criteria to decide if you should use a vapor barrier, and I think you're paying the price now.
When paint peels off of wood, it is generally due to moisture. Moisture gets into the wood, and it then must get out. Lots of heat and sun will accelerate this process.
Most exterior piants can breathe just enough that a little bit of moisture is not a problem. But lots of moisture is a big problem. All of that water movement is pushing the paint off of the surface of the wood.
The fix is explained easily, but is a big job. Simply remove the interior wall surfaces, and add the vapro barrier.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Thanks for responding.
What are vapor barriers for? I thought that they were to protect the insulation.
I guess that, short of re-renovating the house and removing all the wallboard, ventilating from the outside is the best option. Or why not strip all the paint off and use latex paint which is supposed to pass moisture better?
>>I thought that they [vapor barriers] were to protect the insulation.They are to significantly reduce (they can't stop entirely) the movement of vapor, (aka moisture) into cooler "climates" within the building envelop and condensing into liquid and causing damage: rot, mold, insulation degradation, etc.I don't have any special expertise or experience with moisture and paint failure, but, based on what I see doing home inspections and paint failure close to grade (which is not uncommon), it takes a mighty high moisture content to cause paint failure.That is, when there is wood in contact with, or very close to grade, the paint failure is usually only a couple of inches high above the contact area.That is just an impression; I've never done moisture testing in such circumstances.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I don't begin to under standwhat you were told, because it makes no sense to me.
you have a problem you created by using wet insulation and no VB.
Did you let the isulation dry to the inside to >11%MC before covering it? That moisture has to go someplace.
Whether to use a VB and on which side of the wall assembly depends on your climate. PA is a heating climate mostly, so I would have used a VB on the interior but only after letting that insulation thouroughly dry. Actually, I would have never used wet blown, but we're past that. Ir sounds like you weret aking advice from a one product insulation man for how to deal with the whole hosue systems and he mislead you.
now don't compound your probnlems by thinking that the sound advice from SW is wrong and ignoring them. You have created a situation wheree the moisture is passing from inside the hosue to outside, added to the moisturefrom the insulation going out. you need to have a rainscreen wall. Tyvel, then a product ca;lled Rainslicker or ripped strips at least 3/16" thick run vertically, then the clapboards.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The wet-blown cellulose had plenty of time to dry before the wall-board went up, probably 6 months.
I think that the next time I repaint the interior walls, I'll use a vapor-barrier paint and see if that helps.
sounds like yesterday was a good time to repaint the interior then.it could get better as time goes by. A new house or new work genreates a lot more moisture from mud, crete, paint etc than after it stabilizes. A heat recovery system can help too to vent interior humidity out
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Have you done any moisture testing? Don't worry so much about "absolute" values - take readings in several locations (early AM before the sun heats stuff up.
Although it sounds like a moisture problem, it isn't necessarily.
One factor which can affect paint adhesion is how long the wood was bare before painting - supposedly as little as 48 hrs can make a difference, although not so much as to cause complete failure.
But if it was left exposed for weeks/months?
Seems strange that it is east and west that have the problems, but not south or north.
Is the south side well shaded, and do the east and west get significantly more sun?
Another website to ask at would be Old House Journal - many folks there have a lot of experience with these issues.
BTW, to ventilate the clapboards, there are plastic wedges which you drive under the bottom edges and can be fairly unobtrusive.
I think that Sherwin Williams did some moisture testing but, if they did it a systematic evaluation on all the different sides, on old versus new wood, and covered versus exposed walls, I don't know about it. I'll inquire.The house had been covered in inselbrik for probably 50 years. Then, I had it all removed, scraped, sanded, primed with oil-base, and painted with latex, just as OHJ recommends. Within 6 months, the paint began to peel off, and this was on a gutted, open-to-the studs, and unheated shell. After I finished the construction, I had it repainted. This paint lasted 1.5 years before it started peeling.The south sides of the house on each floor are different: the first and second floors are both old wood and covered by porches; the third floor is exposed to the sun and is all new wood.The plastic wedges are what they are proposing to use for the ventilation. I am concerned that my cellulose insulation will fall out.
"Then, I had it all removed, scraped, sanded, primed with oil-base, and painted with latex, just as OHJ recommends. Within 6 months, the paint began to peel off, and this was on a gutted, open-to-the studs, and unheated shell."STOP!!!!Ok you had the problem before you insulated and before you have any moisture driven from the inside.Something else is going on.
I was just thinking the same thing.
Does some clap just get too old to paint? He said he scraped... perhaps it needed to be stripped back to bare wood... then sanded etc. Said the new stuff wasn't peeling "as bad". Perhaps the wood is just punky. Hard to see it being a moisture issue if the walls were open when it started peeling._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
I don't know if I mentioned that I've had two paint-job failures. The first time it was painted was during the exterior restoration (removing the inselbrik, replacement of the trimwork, new windows, new roof). It was painted by the same contractor who did the rest of the work; i.e., he was not a 'painting contractor'. This paint job continued to peel while I then did the interior work. The second paint job was completed after the interior was completed.
Nobody has asked what I consider to be the basic question. Where is that water coming from? I doubt that without a significant source of moisture, the lack of a vb on a wet-spray cellulose job in PA would cause paint to peel. WS cellulose does a pretty good job of air sealing, and air movement is by far the greatest transport mechanism for water in framing cavities. Do you have a damp basement or crawlspace? Any plumbing or roof leaks?Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy-
It occurs to me that if he used a moisture meter with the long probes installed that the moisture content gradient through the siding and into the stud could be established in order to help develop a theory of the source of the moisture. If the stud is thoroughly dry throughout, it would lead me to believe that the moisture wasn't coming from the interior.
Who does this kind of testing? I would definitely like to pursue it as an engineer who likes to solve perplexing problems like this.
or did he use torpedo oil or propane heaters during the winter, making gallons of water every day?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't remember.
I just read the line where you said that you were hesitant to use wedges to vent the siding because you were afraid of the cellulose falling out. What is between the cellulose and the siding? Did you damp spray cellulose onto the back side of the siding? Please tell us the complete wall assembly starting from the outside and moving to the inside. I think this is about to get very interesting. I'm anxious to here your response.
ray.... here's what NY said..
<<< do have a significant water problem in the basement. I'm still trying to figure out the cause but I think that there is a stone shelf about 4 feet down that guides the water coming from further up the hill into everyone's basements, about 6 feet down. There is a hole in the basement floor that I believe is a sump. There is frequently water at the bottom of it. Some of the basement walls are always damp and I frequently have streams of water coming in when it rains hard.>>>
no matter what.. he's scerewed until he solves the basement water problem..
no wall system that i know of , especially in an old house, can handle that waterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yep, what Mike said. Fix the water problem before doing anything else on the house. Before it was insulated, the walls could vent that water up and out. Now they can't, and the paint peels.
The sun on the walls might contribute, but I doubt in a simple way. Moitsture moves from warm to cold, wet to dry. The moisture drive from the sun would be inward. Perhaps that loads the cellulose with water over the course of the summer, and when the heat comes on, the moisture is driven out through the clapboards?
Regardless, dry that basement.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
As an interested spectator, can anyone elaborate on "dry that basement"? I interpret this as, dig external drains down the footings all around the house, draining to daylight. Or do people have something less drastic in mind?
Excavating around the house, installing waterproofing and daylight drains, then backfilling with gravel would be the best approach. Probably cost prohibitive, though. A reasonable approach would be to start with making sure the gutters are good, and that the landscaping doesn't guide water to the house. I'd re-grade or add a curtain drain as needed. Then I'd start thinking about an internal drainage system.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy- Actually, when the siding is heated the vapor drive will be in both directions. The east and west wall problems is the dead giveaway on that part of the problem. Typically, peeling will occur on the west wall then the east then the south and not on the north. Have you witnessed this?
I agree that the basement needs to be taken care of, but I left that for others to discuss. It's a pretty involved process that has been handled here many times in the past.
I get the impression that the damp spray cellulose was applied to the back of the siding with no drainage plane. If so the siding would have initially sucked up many gallons of water and the solar drive would have given it the boost it needed to lose adhesion. The older siding would have probably had a lower permeance due to additional layers of paint so would have shown the problem first. As an ongoing problem there may be water being pulled up into the siding by capillary suction at the cracks between the courses of siding. I have seen that cause the bottom of siding to rot out from the back side. The wedges, if large enough can break the capillary action and allow the siding to vent.
If there is no drainage plane, then adding insulation to the wall may prevent drying of the moisture that has been entering the wall harmlessly for years and could lead to catastrophic structural failure. This is all just supposition and WAG without a proper investigation.
Rick- On a typical home, the majority of the solar gain is on the east and west walls. The sun exposure on the south wall comes from overhead while the east and west walls take a more straight on assault in the morning and afternoon. For this reason, energy efficient homes should limit the area of glass on the east and west walls and provide the appropriate amount of overhang on the south wall based on the latitude of the building.
I agree with much of what you say, but still believe the moisture drive would mostly be inward during the summer, outward during the winter, and somewhere in between during spring and fall. I may be missing something here - How is the sun on the clapboards creating a moisture drive outward, as well as inward? I don't see how an inward moisture drive could contribute to peeling paint, unless it's coupled with an outward drive at some point.
Also agreed that there is greater moisture drive on the east and west walls.
I think the poster said that the damp spray had months in which to dry before the interior walls were closed in. If that's the case, I don't see the damp spray as a factor other than that it, like any insulation, slows the drying of the moisture from the basement. I think you're right about there being no drainage plane or capillary break, the lacks of which could contribute to the problem.
In the end though, fixing anything before tackling the wet basement is likely to be futile. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy- If the damp spray cellulose was sprayed against the back of the siding then the siding would soak up the moisture out of the wet cellulose. This would raise the moisture content of the wood.
On the issue of vapor drive from the heated wood, when wood is heated it excites the water molecules that are held within the structure of the wood. The distance between the molecules increases and the molecules are forced out of the substrate. This movement will be in all directions, until a new equilibrium is reached.
Sure, it would raise the moisture content of the wood temporarily. But I believe this to be an ongoing problem, which the cellulose wouldn't explain.
OK, I'll grant that the moisture drive would be in all directions. That said, wouldn't it be a matter of degree? Lacking any barrier to the rear, wouldn't the moisture tend to move that way, rather than through the paint? I can imagine saturated wood preventing moisture from being driven through from the front, but as long as there was any capacity in the wood, wouldn't most of the moisture take that, which I imagine to be the easiest path? Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
BTW, Ray - I appreciate the chance to hash this out with you. Puzzling out a problem and hoping to learn from others is what keeps me hanging out here.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Right you are sir, this has been a very educational discussion.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
While I think that may be true in sunnier parts, in PA (poster) and MA (me) for most of the year the low sun in the east and west is really quite weak.
In the winter (September through June :), the only sun that will heat up a room at all is from the south in the middle part of the day.
Gardens and sun rooms up here are almost always southern exposure.
As a former painter, the south side of houses up here is almost always the one in worst shape, from siding to windows.
"energy efficient" for PA and MA often is geared towards heating rather than cooling, to actually take advantage of solar gain rather than to minimize it.
Tell me if I am wrong, or if you have experience up north -
Edited 8/25/2005 10:10 am ET by RickD
The foundation is of sandstone river rock. It is difficult to have anything adhere to it. My contractor said that it is impossible. I suggested attaching a waterproof membrane to the last course of clapboard, hanging down over the foundation, to the gravel drains but he is hesitant to do anything novel.The gutters are fine and are not visibly contributing to the problem.The yard to the east begins with a concrete sidewalk and driveway against the house and then slopes away from the house. I don't see water coming in from that side.What are daylight drains and curtain drains?
a daylight drain is a drain that drains by gravity to daylight.... IE: a typical one would be a stone filled trench system with collecting pipes inside the foundation.. all pitched to an outlet that flows downhill until it exits to "daylight"
if you can put such a system in your basement.. then cover it with a 6 mil vapor barrie and a conc. slab .. most of your water worries would be gone.. any residual moisture could be handled by a dehumidifier..
during the winter heating months a certain amount of humidity is desireable anyways.. a Relative Interior Humidity of between 30 % - 40% is a common goal
curtain drains are usually installed around the outside of a foudation to intercept water flow.. either surface or sub-surface
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/23/2005 11:26 pm ET by MikeSmith
Thanks for the information. I prefer keeping the water outside the foundation. At present, it comes in through the walls and then flows into the sump in the middle of the basement.
I have talked with a contractor about putting in French drains on the two sides of the house where water comes in the basement, the west side and the north side. What is strange, though, is that there is an asphalt street to the north. I had the ground on the west side graded several years ago to slope away from the house. I'm afraid, though, that water is flowing down the hill from the north-west and I'm in the path. I would have the French drains collect the water and carry it to the south and dump it out over the hill as it continues its drop to the flats of the North Side of Pittsburgh.
subsurface water can often run in different directions that the surface grading indicates. I would install drains at all four sides. I will be working on a house this fall that was just renovated three years ago. one problem is similar to yours. The contractor installed drains on only three sides of the house based on his look at surface water but the fourth side still runs water into the house. Finishing his drainage system will be my first item on the list.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The wet-blown cellulose was blown into the wall cavities directly in contact with the back side of the clapboard. The wallboard was nailed up right on top of the insulation with no vapor barrier. The house was incredibly tight after the insulation went in so much so that you could no longer slam the front door shut.
that you could no longer slam the front door shut.
Congratulations N, you have accomplished what few others have been able to do in taking an old house and tightening it up to that degree.
Might I inquire what size the house is, what type of heating and your 'after insulation' costs of heating? Thanks.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
It is in the form of a typical Pittsburgh row house - one room wide and three rooms deep on two floors plus one room in the front on the third floor. It's about 1,500 sq ft in area plus a basement under the first two rooms with a crawl space under the third room.It's heated and cooled by a Trane heat pump. I need to look into how much it costs to heat. It is a rental house and the utility company won't tell me. I must ask my tenant. My own house is similar but it's about 3,000 sq ft with a full basement. It is brick with plaster and no insulation except in the roof. However, I am attached on both sides to other houses. I have two Lennox heat pump systems - one for the basement and first floor and one for the second and third floors. My highest electric bill last year was in February at $142. That's keeping it at a constant 72 F. I'm pleased.
Not being able to close the door after wet-spraying the insulation could be another sign of moisture problems. The jamb may have swollen up from absorbing the moisture.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What I meant was that the house was very tight after the insulation. The door was not tight in the jam.
Didn't you say you couldn't close it tight?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What I meant was that, in a leaky house, you can just push on a door and let go. The inertia will keep it moving all the way until it shuts; i.e., meets the door jam. In a tight house, you must keep your hand on the door, pushing it all the way until it latches. After installation of the wet-blown cellulose, it became the latter situation.
I do have a significant water problem in the basement. I'm still trying to figure out the cause but I think that there is a stone shelf about 4 feet down that guides the water coming from further up the hill into everyone's basements, about 6 feet down. There is a hole in the basement floor that I believe is a sump. There is frequently water at the bottom of it. Some of the basement walls are always damp and I frequently have streams of water coming in when it rains hard.
yup.. you got a water problem.... all that basemnt moisture is making it's way out your walls, and taking the paint with it..
my guess.. the claps that are not peeling are factory primed.. ie: they are BACKPRIMED.. so .. on those walls the moisture takes the path of least resistance... out thru the joints..
on the peeling, non-backprimed , clapboards... the moisture takes the path of least resistance... out thru the untreated wood.. until it hits the paint and starts lifting/peeling..
am i right about some backprimed/ some not ?
a latex paint will allow some moisture to pass instead of peel.. but ultimately... you have to come up with a solution to control the water in your basementMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike- My strong assumption is that the east and west walls get more sun than the north and south, as with most houses. The heating of the wood creates a much higher vapor pressure than the permeance of the paint can diffuse to the exterior.
NKyriazi- Delmhorst makes a moisture meter that is available with 3" long probes. You can probably rent one. The moisture content is read only at the tips of the probes so readings can be taken continuously as the probes are driven into the wood. This will give you an idea of the gradient through the first three inches of the assembly.
I am pretty sure south walls get the most sun - west the most wind/rain.
Passing east to west (i think that's how it goes :) sun will shine on the south side for most of the day
Normally you would be right, but this house has a porch shading the south wall
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
only the lower half - but u r right
Edited 8/25/2005 10:13 am ET by RickD
I will look into getting ahold of a moisture meter, one way or another. Thanks for the brand information.
The new clapboard was custom-milled at a local shop to match the profile of the old clapboard. I think that my contractor back-primed them but I will find out for sure tomorrow. That's one factor I did not consider. Thanks.
There's your answer right there. You have a paint problem that is typical of moisture excess inside, and you have an excess of moisture inside. no reason to look further. i've never read the proscription against painting in direct light but that is the only way we can paint here. It's either sunshine or liquid sunshine, one or the other. I can imagine that hot sun in excess of nonety some degrees might cook it off too fast though. Seems more like that would hurt the finish than the bond.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
isn't Duration a special appliaction paint? Very specific instructions how to use it, if I recall.
Also, did you say what kind of wood this is? Redwood, red cedar and some cypress are full of resins that require special primers to hold and to block the tannins.
Still, in all, since SW was out there, I tend to accept the moisture theory, since they have seen it and i ahven't and because the symptoms you report are consistant with moisture moving out through the wood. In this case, latex is possibly better than oil for the primer, cause opil makes a shield while latex will allow some moisture to move through it.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The instructions for Duration paint, and probably most paint, is to avoid painting in direct sunlight. I'm sure that the contractor did not pay attention to such directives.The old clapboard is probably yellow pine and the new is probably white pine or fir.