Some of you may remember that I’ve mentioned being in the local Lions Club. Yesterday we got quite a mess dropped in our lap.
We have an annual street carnival, so we have a lot of equipment. We keep the equipment in 2 sheds that are on 3 lots in town.
The property used to belong to a utility company, and supposedly had a coal gassification plant on it back in the 1940s or so. (Not sure) Recently the EPA apparently forced the utility to put some test wells in to monitir ground contamination. And unfortunately they found some.
So they want to come in and dig things up to get rid of the contamination. Here are the particulars that were emailed to me:
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Residual materials contaminant on Lions property, contaminant particles adhered to soil particles, no groundwater impact. BTEX and PAH; bi products of gasoline and diesel fuel; known as coal tar. Illinois EPA standard for commercial use was okay, levels per cubic yard are too high for residential use.
Ameren (The utility company)is volunteering, through the Illinois EPA Site Remediation Program, to come in and remove enough dirt to clean these contaminants out. Estimate clearing out 4000 cubic yards of dirt; 8-18 ft deep.
Soil removal under north side of shed #1 to the east end. Existing building(s) and concrete floor would be partially or totally removed so clean up underneath could be done.
Ameren would, through the “access agreement†reimburse storage expenses incurred by the club during the clean up process.
Amerin will do surveys of property and building to ensure that once clean up is complete all is brought back to “existing gradeâ€.
Projected start date is early May with completion, weather permitting, end of June. Six to eight week project.
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I attached a GIF with the rough dimensions of the buildings and such, just to give an idea of what’s going on.
That’s about all I know at this point. I’m curious if any of you have been through something like this.
I assume all projects are different, but I’m sure they have some similarities too. Just curious what your experiences have been.
Cats: The other white meat.
Replies
This seems much too serious for the tavern.Sure you don't want it elsewhere?
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
I thought I posted it in general discussion. Must have clicked on something else by mistake. Gotta leave shortly - Will check back no the thread sometime tonight.
Diamonds are nothing more than chunks of coal that stuck to their jobs. [Malcolm Forbes]
There's not really much to "expect" other than a big piece of equipment loading soil into trucks until the testing guy says the remaining stuff is clean. After that, a long parade of trucks bringing back clean stuff to fill the hole back in.
The biggest problem will be settlement over time- if the hole truly ends up 18' deep, your newly replaced sheds are likely gonna sink.
Bob
Boss,
I did environmental consulting and site remediation for 8 years and worked at similar sites. The approach is standard. At every site I ever worked at, we always ended up digging alot more than originally estimated. Coal tar is pretty nasty stuff-similar if not identical to creosote in many ways. So I would anticipate that there will be alot more digging and any structure that has some tar under will probably need to be totally removed because it always is further than you think.
A couple of things you may want to look into in terms of negotiations with the utility.
1. Some indemnification language for the Lions protecting them from any future liability. There are even some insurance policies available to provide you with additional protection. The utility can spring for that as well.
2. Has groundwater been impacted and if so do you have a well. If you have a well insist that it be tested immediately.
3. Understand the nature of restrictive covenants that will be placed on the property upon completion of the remediation work. Few if any project are "clean closed", meaning things are just like they were before the contamination occured. You may be prohibited from doing any excavation on the property. Not a big deal unless you need to replace a water line or put in a fence post.
4. Get a detailed explanation of the risk level at the property post remediation. Most clean up projects these days are risk based, ie they clean up to an allowable level based on the anticipated use of the property.
5. If you enter into any agreements with the utility, have a qualified attorney review them.
Feel free to shoot me an email if you have any further questions,
Bruce
Edited 1/26/2007 7:28 pm by Hiker
I'm a project manager for an environmental consulting firm in Ohio (I'm a DIYer in BT). Bruce had a very good response. If it is passing commercial, but not residential, then there is a good chance they are cleaning up without restrictive covenants, but I'd want to be sure. Understanding what standards and risks they are cleaning to is important. If you ever go to sell the property it will make a big difference. If at all possible, you want it to easily meet residential standards and have no restrictions. Otherwise, you've lost value on your land.
I agree with Bruce that there is a good chance this will be bigger than they expect. I would also be prepared for it to take considerably longer than they expect. In addition to finding more contaminant and weather, there are contract and funding issues that can hold things up.
Bob is also correct that you want to specify how they backfill. I would specify the type of fill and level of compaction necessary. Otherwise, they can dump whatever dirt a local construction site is giving away directly in the hole. I would also be sure that they are claiming responsibility as the generator of waste from your property.
Illinois EPA has a manager assigned to your site. I expect it is either Rick or Greg at the link below since you referred to the site remediation program (this program would constitute a 'voluntary' action by the electric company). It doesn't sound like they are working entirely voluntarily if they were forced to install test wells, but they may not have been forced to do the cleanup.
http://www.epa.state.il.us/land/more-info-about-bol.html#Voluntary-Site-Remediation-Program
If you scroll up a couple inches you will see a contact for Joyce Munie - she oversees both units A & B. Any of the three should be able to tell you who to talk to, and will be able to answer a lot of your questions without bias, as well as make some recommendations.
It's a headache, but be very glad you don't have to pay for it!
- Nate
As an excavation contractor whos does this often enough. I agree with everyone that it is generally much larger than anticipated. I did a project about 2 years ago where there was a major leak in the furnace oil tank in the basement of a home. We were origanlly contracted to remove the concrete slab and dig down "as neccasary". We also had to underpinn the house(I'm also a foundation and framing contractor) after working in these tight quarters for just over a week and underpinning part of the house the inspectors and engineers decided to tear the house down and excavate 25' from grade.
After that we ended up building a new house on the property. Someone also metioned the possibility of your buildings sinking. So because of that risk your going to want to have an engineer size the footings for your new building. Generally they size the footings quite larger than usual. Also we suggested that they dump in 6 to 8 feet of blast rock as a base. It will nver move. We also had to compact the fill as we dumped it in. Your also going to wanna make sure of the fill they are putting back in. If you have something nice like sand they have to put sand backno matter what.
Worked for an environmental consultant in CT, always removed more than expected, every time. No matter how many wells are drilled or soil borings collected, you don't know till the excavation starts.
Thank fer the thoughts so far. The idea that this will take longer than exected and they will excavate more than they had anticipated had already occurred to me. I also figure that - Given Murphy's law - The project will likely be late starting. I'm not entirely sure what exactly they typically do. Do they dig up some, then take some soil samples and send them off to a lab, then do more digging based on what they find?If all they were going to do was remove 4,000 cubic yards like they said, I wouldn't think that would take much more than a week. So I'm assuming the sampling process slows things down somewhat?.One of you mentioned selling the property - That's not really a concern. The club is large and has a solid membership. The carnival is our biggest fundraiser, so we're not going to get rid on the equipment or sheds anytime soon. Last time we had the property appraised about 5 years ago, it was worth less than $20,000. So even if we never sell it, it's not worth all that much anyway..I attached a picture to show the buildings. The left half of the larger building is the newest and in the best shape. And of course that's the part they're certain they're gonna tear up. I spent a lot opf time prepping and pouring a 6" reinforced slab, which will soon be jackhammered into oblivion.The older half of the building (to the right) may or may not go. I've done a lot of repair work on it, and it's in decent shape. But I'm not all that attached to it.The old metal thing on the right is in TERRIBLE shape, and I'd love for them to destroy it. But it's apparently farthest from the contamination, so it's least likely to go. Gonna be a fun year...
We're good together.
But I like it better when we're bad together.
Generally they dig off any clean dirt above and set it aside. Then dig out the contaminated dirt either directly into trucks or stockpiled on poly. A lot of the digging can be done visually - if the soil is stained black or green it's often not worth testing. There are also field screening instruments. Someone will stick the soil in a ziploc bag so all the odors accumulate, and then the instrument sniffs the odors and gives a general idea how bad it is. Once everything looks good visually and with the meter, they will take soil samples from the hole and the overburden they set aside, and send them off to a lab. Labs can turn samples around in a couple days, but they charge a premium. Typical turnaround is about two weeks. In your location with a twenty foot hole I'd install fence and padlock to buy some peace of mind. If you weren't in a hurry, the excavator didn't mind the mo/demo, and I wasn't worried about kids in the hole, I would ask the lab for the quickest turnaround they can give me without charging extra (usually 3-5 days with the lab I use). I'd dig until I thought it might pass, take samples, dig the areas that didn't pass until I thought they would, take more samples, and then hopefully be ready to fill the hole back in.
Not knowing what equipment and trucks are being used, I'd guess on three days to get the site ready for trucks (concrete and stockpiling), six days of loading and hauling, and another four days on backfill and compaction. Obviously, this can be much quicker or longer depending on the size hoe, number of trucks, etc. Add two weeks for lab results, time for weather, time going back for more if the lab results fail, and the unexpected. Their estimate of 6-8 weeks is probably fair, with activity on site only half the time. Things can be done a lot quicker, but if nobody is in a hurry (ie waiting to buy or sell), they likely won't be.
-Nate
would it not be possible for them to just buy you another pc. of property and put you up a new building,then they can dig and play in the dirt and you don't have to mess with it. it sounds like they are going to be building new buildings anyway,and with the appraisal you got for 20k ground cost must not be all that high.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Does anyone know how the soil is treated to remove the stuff, or is it simply hauled to a landfill?
At least for crude oil contamination out west, it seemed most popular to either run the dirt through a high temp cooker or spread it out seeded with some bacteria to eat it, stiring once in a while as if it's composting.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Treatment all depends on how the soil is classified which can be complex. If the process that created the waste is known, generally that governs the classification.
I am guessing but this soil will probably need to be incinerated unless they have negotiated some other treatment.
Placement of these materials on roads is unlikely.
Around here, it depends where you are. In central Ohio we have a place that does bioremediation on soil. We truck it to them, they put it on a concrete pad covered in a tarp with bacteria and controlled conditions like you describe, and once the contaminants are gone they use it as fill on their land or sell it off for another use. In southeastern Ohio, landfill space is fairly abundant and it doesn't pay to ship the soil farther to a bio facility. It can sometimes be used as their daily fill to cover trash, provided there is enough of it. I've seen digging out and doing bio treatment on site, as well, but most people don't want to have that sitting around while they wait. Bio treatment without digging out is more common, particularly for groundwater. I talked to a guy once who did environmental. emergency response, and he once pulled all the sod up at a diesel spill along the road and took a flame thrower to the dirt and sod in place. If you have oily water there is a place in Columbus that will separate the oil until the water is clean enough for the municipal sewer, and then send it off to be refined. I'd prefer to always clean and reuse the soil, but generally the option used is the one that has the lowest transport and disposal costs for that particular site and contamination. Non-oil contaminants (lead, arsenic, etc.) are typically landfilled, at least until the alchemists learn to make gold of it :)
Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Just got this sketch emailed to me. The utiliy gave this to the President of the club to show roughly where they want to remove soil.
View Image
Obviously, our larger building will have to go. They were talking like they might save part of it. But I don't see how that could be possible. If they take out one entire wall, there won't be much left.
There's a Lion's club board meeting tonight. I plan to go, and give them some ideas about what I think we we should do.
Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly. [Mae West]
Don't know anything about site remediation buy my immediate thought was the same as one of Timberlines. With that kind of excavation being done, a specific and effective plan needs to be in place to replace the fill in a manner that will support whatever structure someone wants to put on it in the future (within reason). So, not only does the removal of the contaminated dirt need to be engineered, but the replacement of the dirt needs to be engineered too. Sometimes these site work guys seem to think that 6" lifts means filling 4' in 2 passes. :-(
Boss:
You've gotten some great advice from posters that obviously know what they're talking about. As another person who has also worked in environmental remediation and risk assessment I'd like to add a few recommendations, especially considering that you have youth-targeted recreational activities on-site:
- I'd reiterate what someone else said previously, if you have a drinking water well, have it checked for contaminants often and even if its clean now, consider installing an activated carbon-based treatment system to prevent possible exposure. Better yet, connect to a municipal water supply if one's available.
- If you have any surface water on the site, have it monitored (creeks, springs, etc.) Kids love to play in these. Consider installing structures to prevent access.
- Monitor crawlspaces and basements for airborne contamination and install ventilation systems if necessary. Consider slab-on-grade construction for any new buildings. Contaminants related to coal tar generally have a high molecular weight which makes them less volatile, however; degradation by-products and solvents associated with coal tar operations may be more volatile.
I realize my advice makes it sound like the site won't be completely cleaned up given the current remediation effort and that some risk of exposure will remain... and that's exactly what I hope to convey. If groundwater has been contaminated, its highly likely that, no matter how much soil removal is done, this site will be contaminated for a long time to come.
"if you have a drinking water well, have it checked for contaminants"
No wells withing a mile that I know of. This is in the city limits.
"If you have any surface water on the site, have it monitored"
The site drains well, and holds no water. It's only about 120' by 160' or so.
"Monitor crawlspaces and basements for airborne contamination"
Both the existing buildings and any new buildings will just be pole barns with slabs poured inside.
It's great to be a blonde. With low expectations it's very easy to surprise people. [Pamela Anderson]
If the property is only worth 20K, I suggest the Lions get an experienced environmental lawyer to negotiate a deal with the utility to buy the property and let the Lions buy something else without the headaches. The cleanup will probably take a long time and, as others have noted, will likely result in deed restrictions that may impair any ability to sell the property in the future.
Coal tar is nasty stuff. Years ago I had a client who had purchased land from the city redevelopment agency and he put up a nice manufaturing facility. When he learned that it was the site of a former coal gassification plant, the ensuing litigation cost a fortune and resulted in deed restrictions preventing any excavation on the site. That means no addition, no second floor unless the existing foundation is sufficient, no basement, etc.
Whatever happens, they need a lawyer to make sure that they limit their future liability as an owner of contaminated property. They need to be indemnified by the utility against any future costs, but also need to understand that, as an owner, they have certain risks and responsibilities that may vary from state to state.
We've already looked at buying another piece of property, but that didn't fly. Anything that's available is priced so high we could never afford it, or is too far from downtown.At this point, the club has already made an agreement with the utility before I had any knowledge of it. Several of our members are lawyers, so hopefully everything has been looked over throughly.
He that does good for good's sake seeks neither paradise nor reward, but he is sure of both in the end. [William Penn, 1644-1718]
Boss:
Coal tar PAHs etc. above the residential but below the commercial limit- chances are, there's a "hot spot" there somewhere they missed, which they'll find when they start digging. That'll slow things down a might! Doesn't matter- it'll either go to "secure landfill" or to a "dirt burner"- a so-called "thermal desorption" unit. They heat the dirt in a kiln, hot enough to drive off the contaminants as a vapour which they burn, or hot enough that the compounds decompose.
The whole thing p*sses me off: we spend millions to "remediate" sites like this, when chances are the only route of exposure to cause anyone harm is someone actually eating the dirt. All the while we let people voluntarily expose themselves AND others to massive doses of the same compounds by means of cigarette smoking! And before you talk about "voluntary" versus "involuntary" risks, let's not forget about all those kids living with smoking relatives...
Site conditions will dictate, and who could tell from the little bit of detail in your e-mail? But chances are you could haul off the top three feet and replace it with clean and there'd be nothing else worth bothering with. You could "risk assess" it away from that point. The site will eventually bioremediate itself- on the geological timescale, since PAHs decompose so slowly- in the meantime you would only need caution there any time you dug below 3'. These compounds aren't very mobile, don't evaporate readily and stick to soils like glue. And you said there's no groundwater impact- no reason to expect any soon either probably.
Watch out for settlement unless they fill the entire 18' deep hole with granular- don't get yourselves into a situation where you have to import yet more "clean fill" to get the site back to grade again afterward!
Best of luck...