I’m looking into purchasing a smaller used excavator to do regrading and trenching while improving the 1/2 acre property I’m on. Any feedback regarding specific mfs. and/ or models? I’m considering a Komatsu PC 10, I’ve been on CAT, Bobcat, and another whose name I can’t pronounce nor spell, Tagi something-or-other. Your feedback/ thoughts appreciated.
Thanks,
David
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I'm partial to Bobcat. I've run 331's, 328's, 325's, 430's, and 435's. I usually rent when I need it. One day I'll probably buy one.
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I've spent quite a bit of time on Kubotas, but none on anything else. They're great machines. I think Bobcat uses Kubota diesel engines- they're good motors, not too cumbersome to work on IMHO. I like the KX/KH-91 size, myself. Manueverable and versatile.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I've run most of them, and in my opinion the Kubota is the far superior machine by any standard.
If you are not working on steep slopes the Cats are pretty impressive. It's an excellent machine but the ZTS is achieved by moving the weight up and forward, which reduces stability.
Deere/Hitachi pretty good, Case/Kobelco not so good, Takeuchi very nice, IHI is crap. Volvo was remarkably good 5 years ago, but hasn't kept up with the times.
But the single biggest consideration is dealer support. If you can't get parts and service it doesn't matter what you paid or how good it is.
Gotta agree on the need for support. I took a plunge a couple of years ago on a used Mitsubishi MM20. So far so good, but this was a grey market machine and Mitsubishi doesn't support them in this country. Ifigured with a major name like Mitsubishi parts could be found somewhere. Not so far as I can find. It has a Cat sticker on it and I was told that it was the same as a Catepillar model, but the Cat Dealer has told me that is not the case. I may be up the proverbial tributary without visible means of propulsion if something major goes south...
We have a used Komatsu PC50 grey market. No issues whatsoever with the machine functionality, and it does amazing work for what it cost. We do wish we went a size or two bigger. (it weighs 14K)
I rented a smaller machine (yanmar, 3,000 lbs size, 16" bucket) a few years ago, and I was shocked at how slowly it dug. Make certain you buy big enough.
Grey market machines are easier to find on the West Coast, right?
Grey market machines are easier to find on the West Coast, right?
These machines have been pouring into the US market from Japan and Taiwan, especially in the last five years. You can usually find them at any Ritchie Bros. auction.
Most of them come into the ports out west or down in Texas. The smaller Komatsu dozers have fanned out throughout the country and you can find them anywhere. There are also lots of Komatsu small excavators out there.
I own a Komatsu D20 dozer and I can buy any part for it just down the road, from the Komatsu dealer ( not cheap tho) As with most heavy equipment places, they eventually end up making more off the parts than when they sold the machine! Lots of aftermarket parts are available on e-bay.
So as others have said, make sure you have some kind of dealer support for whatever you buy!
Thank you, all, this is the kind of information I was looking for, especially with regard to reliability. As I imagined purchasing is only one part of the equation of ownership, parts/ service being another significant factor ;)
<<Thank you, all, this is the kind of information I was looking for, especially with regard to reliability. As I imagined purchasing is only one part of the equation of ownership, parts/ service being another significant factor ;)>>No doubt about it.I have gotten rid of perfectly good machines because the dealership was costing me too much in lost productivity.To put your observation in perspective, the purchase price is by far the lowest cost. You'll need to run a machine about 500 paying hours a year just for it to cover its own cost. At 800 hours you are probably making some money, at 1,000 hours a year you're starting to do OK.
I've used Deere, Yanmar and Kubota, have only a couple hundred hours total on mini excavators though. If I were in the market for one right now, I'd buy a Kubota, no question. The KX-71/91 sizes are very versatile. I work with many different excavating contractors in my business, popular machines seem to be the Deere ZTS series and the Kubotas. As another poster mentioned - service and parts is everything, more important than the brand.
I'm partial to the New Holland my self, but they are a little more expensive.
I've got an option to buy a New Holland (no model yet) with ~1500 hrs for $16,500. Any idea how this compares in your area (assuming you have knowledge of price, esp. w/o model)?
Thanks,
DavidUnderstandably I have inquired about local service but as you might imagine the seller has far less inclination to be candid than another uninterested party(s).
Edited 2/14/2007 7:31 pm ET by peedee
Without knowing the anything about he machine, it's hard to compare. At first glance, it seems a little rich, but I don't know the year or condition of the machine. What options does it have, what attachements does it come with? 1500 hours on a 1999 machine is entirely different than 1500 hours on a 2005 machine. Check e-bay to compare prices too.
3 people I know got rid of their Kabotas because the drive motors for the tracks were failing and it is mucho $ to fix. This was sereral years ago.
I don't know if this problem is specific to Kabota, or if Kabota has remidied this problem, but it is something to be wary of.
Thank you for posting that. I had not heard of this, as I am new to Kubota. I've noticed that the track motors are not very strong.Another good reason for an oil analysis program.
Didn't know that, thanks for the info. In spite of that, though, the guys I know that have them, like them.
i own a bobcat 325 which i'm very happy with. had it about 8 yrs. no trouble.
A friend of mine owns a huge excavation company and he only uses CAT.
I think when you get right down to it, most users buy a particular brand of machinery because of the dealer and not necessarily the brand.
There are lots of excellent machines out there that will do the job, but not necessarily an excellent dealer nearby that will do the job.
I think that is true most of the time. The gentleman I know owns a billion dollar company and works all over the U.S.
"A friend of mine owns a huge excavation company and he only uses CAT."The small CAT excavators, as I understand it, are made by Mitsubishi, the same as mine - only for the ones that CAT imports, they provide parts and service...
Would not surprise me nowadays. I knew that years ago some of the loaders were made in Japan. Of course take a look at Toyota today.Until recently my brother worked for Toyota and told me they had a Tundra come in the shop which had over 400,000 miles on it.I am waiting for a company to build a pickup that will last like a semi tractor. 300,000 for a top overhaul and 6-750K for a major overhaul.
They've already got pickups that will go hundreds of thousands of miles...the problem is, you won't have a body or frame left because of rust.
I don't think you're ever going to see the American auto industry abandon the strategy of planned obsolescence!
They've already got pickups that will go hundreds of thousands of miles...the problem is, you won't have a body or frame left because of rust.
FWIW, I have 258,000 on my Ranger, and it still looks like new.
peedee,
Tagkiuchi. Good excavator!
let me caution you.. smaller excavators can easily need more maintiance than they are really worth.. the norm today is to delay maintinance untill an item is traded in..
Some relatively trival things can be major expenses. For example the swing bearing seems to have a little hitch in it.. or a control doesn't always function properly.
Both of those could cost well in excess of $5000 to repair (or be as simple as needing a little grease)
Brands don't mean a great deal.. Parts are far more important. Can you get replacement parts, wait a minute just because it's a name brand and you have that dealer in town you still are not out of the woods yet!
Some dealers don't stock parts well.. Oh they may have sold it but they never purchased replacement parts, or it could be a grey market unit.. brought in from a third world country because Americans pay more for stuff than others..
Or while the local dealer sells X model, that particular model was a lemon.. and he never bought any..
Look at the track what sort of condition is it in . new or replacement? what happened to the old ones? do all the grease fittings lok messy and greasy? that's good!
clean and dry would scare the heck out of me..
Excavators are a extremely complex machine, they may have had a sweet life putting trench thru golf courses or a brutal life doing the same thing! operators determine condition far more than hours or work enviorment..
Frankly you sure wouldn't want any that I used.. I'm a hack!
I brutilized every excavtor I've ever touched.. But watching experianced operators who have years of experiance I'm no worse than 40% of them. and 20% of them are actaully worse!
peedee,
I reread your post, I think you are on dangerous ground.
You seem to be buying a price rather than a machine for the application..
$16,000 may be a god deal or it may be terrible.. New Holland may be OK or may be terrible..(the no model part scares the heck out of me)
You really need to stop and back up a bit..
What is your application, what will do the job most efficently? now should you buy that new or used or rent or lease!
Rent may seem to be the most expensive but many many really major contracting firms do nothing but rent and they make it pay off well for them..
Lease again sounds like a chance to get screwed but it doesn't have to be and sophisticated contractors not only know that a lease can be a real advantage but also a real option saving them a lot of money and cash flow!
New or used is far from as simple as it sounds.. Too many people use emotion rather than experiance and logic when making that decision.. I always buy used, I always buy new and either can give you specifics as to why..
Finally any thoughts really need to consider two things..
first is the tax implication.. there are times when for tax reasons you can better afford new than used or a lease on a used one or whatever.
second is they won't put it in your coffin when you die so at some point you need to consider what you intend to do with it when you are finished with it.. It sounds simple but it's not!
When and how you intend to dispose of it will determine more about the tax considerations and the tax considertions should determine if you lease rent or buy, finally options with regard to new/used are determined by other factorsThe least of which should be your own purchasing habits..
Please tell me more, If you want solid advice from someone who's had decades of experiance in the field and stands no chance of profiting by misdirecting you, you can contact me here or simply E mail me..
frenchy, Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough responses. You bring up a lot of good points.I have gone over the rent/ buy scenario and have concluded that, imo, in this instance buying/ having it on site is more advantageous, especially since it will difficult to schedule all the tractor work into small windows. My expectation is to use it for a yr +/- and resell it hopefully for not much difference than it would have been to rent it for various occassions.I understand that these are expensive machines, more so to repair, than to buy, and now better appreciate local support/ service are critical, so I will talking to a few nearby dealers who _also_ do service. There are many dealers, but only two locally that handle service as well. I asked about the New Holland b/c I've heard good things about them. The one I was offered is a 2000 EC25 with <1000 hrs, just a ?" bucket and 5' blade. No, I can't say I know how those hrs. were spent, and how the machine was treated/ maintained during that time. But like I said I've heard they are good machines and I'd like to think retain their value better as a result.I appreciate the tax implications and am in a position that it will be neutral to advantageous to make the capital investment at this time, not so much so as to drive the decision but it has been considered, thx.David
peedee
In the end the only reason we buy anything is because we believe that it will make us money.. the only real way to make that decision is to plan your year out now to calculate where you'll be with regard to taxes at the end of the year? Kinda backwards isn't it? I know but if you think about it it makes sense.. why make a bunch of money only to have the tax man take most of it.. especially when with a little foretought and planning you can put that money in your pocket rather than the tax mans.
I'll kinda go over some of the ground rules with you for a butt simple appraoch to it if you want.
But buy one year sell the next can be a great deal or a terrible deal..the devil is really in the details and the details are where the tax man lives..
I'm not a tax guy but since I work with a lot of contractors I pick up enough to be dangerous.. <G> I always run things past my tax guy before I make my final decision and you can do the same (you should do the same).
Paint with a real broad brush since we don't know excatly where we will be, but we should have a decent idea going in and if things change we can adjust...